One Question That Needs Clearing Up...

[Savannah]

I think it's just that the writers didn't bother to think this one through. I wouldn't put too much thought into it.

Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game.

As far as I can tell, there are no plot holes or evidence of writers not thinking things through in FFX. Masamune has explained everything pretty much accurately and thoroughly, if you read his posts. He's stated several times that "dreams" in Spira terms doesn't exactly mean that they are imaginary. Obviously, Tidus can think, talk, walk and appears to be just like everyone else in Spira-- he was just manifested by the dreaming of the Fayth. Tidus isn't imaginary, Jecht isn't imaginary, and Sin isn't imaginary. "Dream," in Spira, if you're referring to the dreams of the Fayth, does not mean "imaginary."

[ElVaCaNo02YTSCV]

Dream Zanarkand has been a physical location in Spira since its initial realization ~1000 years before FFX. Even at the time of FFX, it was a fully real, physical location. The original Zanarkand was destroyed ~1000 years before FFX.



Even if one discounts the information divulged by the Bahamut Fayth...



...it remains that Tidus "disappears" at the end of the game, when Yu Yevon is defeated and the Summoning is ended. Tidus himself is aware of this...



...but it is not his will to disappear. Rather, it is an inevitable reality, as he is a Dream of the Fayth, manifested in that Dreaming by the Summoning of Yu Yevon. Really, there can be no question that Tidus was a Dream.

Well to tell you the truth... I think he wasn't a dream because as he was disapearing.. he jumped into the water.. and he remained there. also if you finish FFX-2 correctly you can see Tidus at the end of the game... funny... and alittle confusing... to me they were just part of sin... as when sin traveled through time and pick people up from the past...

[Masamune·1600]

Well to tell you the truth... I think he wasn't a dream because as he was disapearing.. he jumped into the water.. and he remained there.

Tidus never jumped into the water. He can be seen reuniting with his father; long after that, he is seen emerging from the sea. This is meant to anticipate the Good and Perfect Endings to FFX-2; in other words, Tidus' emerging from the sea takes place two years after the end of FFX, and is not related to his jumping off of the airship. His "rebirth" is a completely different event from his death; it's possible that his rising from the water was a symbolic allusion to baptism, during which one "rises from the water to receive new life." Nevertheless, there is no question that Tidus spent two years on the Farplane.

to me they were just part of sin... as when sin traveled through time and pick people up from the past...

Neither Sin nor any other entity in FFX travels through time, or moves through time in any way other than the normal fashion. This is a common mistake, which I have attempted to address in my essay Tidus and Shuyin: An Analysis. The relevant excerpt related to the nature of time in Spira has been posted below.

Tidus, as is commonly known, was 17 year old during the events of FFX. However, some people have assumed that he is really ~1000 years old, having existed since Zanarkand was destroyed by Sin at the end of the Machina War. This stems from a misunderstanding of dialogue that takes place early in FFX.

Early on, Rikku tells Tidus that Sin destroyed Zanarkand a millennium before the events of FFX.

Rikku: Don't worry, you'll be better in no time. They say your head gets
funny when Sin is near. Maybe you just had some kind of dream?

Tidus: You mean I'm sick?

Rikku: Because of Sin's toxin, yeah.

Tidus: You sure?

Rikku: Yeah, there is no Zanarkand anymore. Sin destroyed it a thousand
years ago. So...no one plays blitzball there.

Tidus: Huh? What you do mean a thousand years ago? But I saw Sin attack
Zanarkand! You're saying that happened a thousand years ago? No way!




Later, after Tidus washes up near Besaid, Wakka confirms Zanarkand’s death long ago.

Tidus: It's true Zanarkand was destroyed, right? A thousand years ago?
So it's just a big pile of rubble now, isn't it?

Wakka: Long time ago, there were a whole lot of cities in Spira. Big
cities with machina-machines-to run 'em. People played all day and let
the machina do the work. And then, well, take a look. Sin came, and
destroyed the machina cities. And Zanarkand along with 'em. Yeah, that
was about a thousand years ago, just like you said.



As a result of this and similar information, many people have assumed that Tidus was thrown ~1000 years forward by his encounter with Sin. However, such is not the case. Dream Zanarkand, summoned by Yu Yevon from within Sin, has basically existed since the “real” Zanarkand was destroyed. While the city itself is relatively static, architecturally unchanging, and with its Aeon citizenry unaware of what lies beyond the waters, its population is static, in flux like any human population found elsewhere in Spira. Time passes in identical fashion in Dream Zanarkand as it does anywhere else; hence, the residents of Dream Zanarkand are born, live out their lives, and eventually die.

In-game dialogue supports this idea that time passes in Dream Zanarkand in the same way it should in the rest of Spira.

Man's Voice: I was in the coffee shop, running away from home when I
heard the news. Our hero, Jecht, gone. Vanished into thin air! My dad
must have been his biggest fan. I knew how sad he'd be. Heck, we all
were that day. "Zanar", I say to myself, "What are you thinking?" I went
running straight back home. We sat up talking 'bout Jecht all night. My
dad and I never talked so much. Whoa... Didn't mean to reminisce, folks.
Anyway... Ten years later, the Jecht Memorial Cup tournament is today!
The two teams that have won through to the finals are...of course, the
Abes from A-East, and the Duggles from C-South. I know there's a lot of
people out there today to see the star of the Abes! In just one year,
he's become the team's number one player! He's Jecht's blood, and the
new hope of blitzball! What kind of super play will he show us today?
Will we see father's legendary shot? I don't think I'm the only one
excited here, folks!



Priest: Ten years have passed since Lord Braska became high summoner.
And finally we receive a statue for our temple.



Realize that Jecht accompanied Braska on his pilgrimage for the Final Aeon. According to the dialogue, ten years have passes in Spira since this event. According to the man from Dream Zanarkand, who calls himself Zanar, ten years have also passed in that place. For every year that passes in Spira, a year passes in Dream Zanarkand. This also suggests the dynamic reality of events there; it does not reset to Jecht again excelling in Blitzball. Rather, the torch has passed to the next generation.

Driving the point home even further, we later observe a discussion between Tidus and Yuna where we are left with no doubt that the times correspond.

Yuna: You're a blitzball player, aren't you? From Zanarkand, right?

Tidus: You hear that from Wakka? Wakka doesn't believe me at all.

Yuna: But I believe you! I've heard, in Zanarkand...there is a great
stadium, all lit up even at night!

Tidus: Huh?

Yuna: Great blitzball tournaments are held there, and the stands are
always full!

Tidus: How do you know that?

Yuna: A man named Jecht told me. He was my father's guardian.

Tidus mumbles "Jecht" to himself in an unhappy way.

Tidus: My father...his name is Jecht!

Yuna: Amazing! You know, our meeting like this must be the blessing of
Yevon!

Tidus: Sounds like him, but it can't be him.

Yuna: Why not?

Tidus: My old man, he died. Ten years ago, off the coast of Zanarkand.

Yuna: I'm sorry.

Tidus: He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back.
And no one's seen him since then.

Yuna: Why, that's the day that Jecht came to Spira. It's true! I first
met Jecht ten years and three months ago! I remember, that was the day
my father left. The date fits, doesn't it?




Furthermore, we repeatedly see that Tidus himself has changed as time has passed. In several instances, we see flashbacks of a young Tidus, a child in Dream Zanarkand.

Jecht: You with a woman? You can't even catch a ball! Oh, what's the
matter? Gonna cry again? Cry, cry. That's the only thing you're good
for!

Young Tidus: I hate you.

Jecht: Huh? What'd you say?



Man: But, it's been nearly... It's been nearly a day already.

Woman: Perhaps you could go look for us.

Man: People are searching for him now.

Woman: Thank you.

Young Tidus: Who cares whether he comes back or not?

Woman: But he might die!

Young Tidus: Fine, let him!

Woman: Do you... Do you hate him so?

Young Tidus nods "yes".

Woman: If he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate
him.




Jecht: See? I told him what I thought of him, right there!

Tidus' Mom: Really?

Jecht: 'Course!

Tidus' Mom: I suppose, but...

Young Tidus: Mommy...

Tidus' Mom: Just a sec, dear.



Again, we see the change wrought by time. Ten years ago, Tidus was a child. Presently, he is a young adult.

Thus, while they are dependent upon the fayth and the Summoning within Sin for substantiation, the citizenry is entirely different from the residents that the fayth Dreamt to originally populate Dream Zanarkand. However, this citizenry is unaware of the Spira that exists outside the borders of Dream Zanarkand. Tidus had never heard of Bevelle, or Luca, or the actual Zanarkand, or any other location in Spira. As a result, he interpreted the Zanarkand long destroyed to be the same as Dream Zanarkand, his Zanarkand. This led many to the mistaken assumption that Tidus had been Dreamt 1000 years ago, the memory of Shuyin. However, realizing that Tidus really is only 17, we can see that the temporal distance between Shuyin and Tidus is massive. Tidus is certainly many generations removed from the original memories of Dream Zanarkand, and thus has no link of this manner to Shuyin.

This excerpt should be sufficient to explain your primary misconception, which seems to be the relationship between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand. They are not the same location; Tidus is not a resident of the city destroyed ~1000 years before the events of Final Fantasy X. Instead, he is from Dream Zanarkand, the city being Summoned by Yu Yevon, and manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth. Sin does not go back in time to reach Dream Zanarkand; it merely travels across the ocean, and finds the city, which exists and moves in the same real-time as the rest of Spira.

[Renmiri]

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

Precisely!

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin

But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth, and because of this, Yevon may have had a considerable degree of control over Sin, for short periods at least, eg, allowing the time for the survivors to becme fayth for the dream.

I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

Incidentally, I incorporated some of the info from here in my short story about Yunalesca
Look for it on the Writers Corner of this Forum

Or FanFiction.net

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2687313/1/

This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

[leeza]Do not post more than once in a row. Use the edit/delete button if you wish to add to your post. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[Little Blue]

Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

In a way it does, i ent to sure about the feeding habits of sin, but all sin needs the fayth for is for Yu Yevon to possess once they have destroyed sin, and so all Sin needs the calm for is to become strong again and to become big after possessing the fayth.

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin

True, he lives for the summoning, and Sin lives to protect him. As for the fayth, as long as they keep dreaming, he can keep summoning, so no, it appears as though he cares little about the action of the fayth.

He can be seen reuniting with his father; long after that, he is seen emerging from the sea. This is meant to anticipate the Good and Perfect Endings to X-2

Just out of curiosity, what is Tidus in X-2, i find it hard to believe he's still a dream since the fayth have stopped dreaming, but by that same token, since they're all just pyreflies on the farplane, if tidus was made to be a real person, how could the souls of the fayth do that? (if this is answered in the perfect ending, just say its in the perfect end, cos i havent seen that end yet)

[Christmas]

Precisely!

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had dream Zanarkand and Sin protecting him

I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

Did you see Yu Yevon flying out of Jecht's body after Jecht is defeated? It depends on how you look at it or look at "possession".

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

He just want to summon Dream Zanarkand and the "fresh" fayth thing doesn't really come in place.

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor.

He dun really need any fresh fayth to substain Sin. People send new fayth aka Final Aeon to him because they want to destroy Sin. He just possess the new fayth and continue on with his summoning cause his old one along with Sin is gone thanks to the Final Aeon.

Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Yu Yevon need time to reform another Sin.

[tidus_rox]

When the party is about to face yunalesca. she says that they must choose a member of the party to become the next final aeon. so when jetch choose to 20 years before he was a dream but then was converted into the final aeon.;) thx,
Cody!:cool:

[Masamune·1600]

But they say Yu Yevon is kind of mad (ya think ?) and just lives for the summoning so maybe he didn't care about what the other fayth were doing as long as he had his Sin

Yu Yevon is not at all insane, as that implies some sort of a warped will. His situation is much more profound; he cannot move beyond the Summoning. His entire existence has now been defined by the Summoning; he embodies it--he is the Summoning. "Car[ing]" what the Fayth think is a completely irrelevant statement; Yu Yevon cannot care, as that involves a concept outside of the definition that he has become.

Also, Yu Yevon is not a Fayth.

I think Zaon, Jecht and all previous final Aeons are not "core". We see in the game that they are a lot less powerful than Yu Yevon (even though Jecht gives the mad summoner a run for his money sometimes). He must use them as a way to control or create Sin but from the Sin as an armor concept I get the impression that Sin and it's Aeons are ALL around Yu Yevon, like a protective shell around it's core. They can't be core and armor at the same time IMHO

This is incorrect. The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide, an official document from SE, unambiguously states that Sin is comprised of pyreflies, and held together by Gravity Magic.

As to the matter of the Final Aeon, it forms the foundation around which pyreflies coalesce to form Sin. Initially, Yu Yevon's physical body was this anchor; however, aftering being pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, he merely possessed said Aeon and used it as the basis for the next Sin. Each time Sin is pierced by a Final Aeon, the previous Final Aeon is physically defeated and dispersed--and the "conquering" Final Aeon is possessed and made into the next foundation.

It's obvious that a Final Aeon is not necessary for the control of Sin; after all, Sin predated the tradition of the Final Summoning. However, once Yu Yevon's physical body was destroyed, Yu Yevon was left vulnerable. Had their not been an Aeon to possess, a powerful enough attack could have destroyed him completely.

In summation, it is correct to view the current Final Aeon as a foundation about which Sin is formed. Moreover, from within this "heart," Yu Yevon possesses a physical presence, protecting him in the case of the defeat of Sin. As only the Final Summoning had been used to defeat Sin prior to the actions of Tidus and the others...

Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon
will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it
into a new Sin.

Yuna: Yu Yevon merges with the aeon...

Fayth: Then, protected by this new Sin he has created, Yu Yevon
continues the summoning

...it's obvious that Sin (and the spiral of death) would have been perpetuated.

Yu Yevon is a villain IMHO. He got a taste of Sin's power and wouldn't, couldn't let go of it. As the fayth says in the game: "He lives for the Summoning"

No. The quote is taken completely out of context; the Bahamut Fayth explicitly states that Yu Yevon cannot be defined as "good" or "evil."

Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

Within this context, it is clear that Yu Yevon, simply put, cannot stop Summoning. It has nothing to do with power; Yu Yevon has no desire for power, as all he desires--can desire--is the continued Summoning and the related manifestation of Dream Zanarkand. Moreover, Yu Yevon never really had a lust for power; the substantiation of Dream Zanarkand was not made out of a bid for power, but out of a desire that Zanarkand not die.

Incidentally, I have some ideas about how the whole Calm / Sin violence can be explained.

It seems Sin needs "fresh" fayths to be able to show up again, as it is always killing people. Why else it would do it ? Yu Yevon is not a murderer - remember Bahamut's fayth: "Yu Yevon is not good or bad" ? So we can assume Yu Yevon / Sin need the killing to keep their power

This statement doesn't make sense. If Yu Yevon is not explicitly evil, then he could not willingly murder for the reason of his own power and ascendancy. Killing has nothing to do with Yu Yevon, really; Sin is destructive, and that is a reality that cannot be altered. Yu Yevon is neither good nor evil; he no longer even understands that he is killing. He is completely bound up in the overarching reality of the Summoning.

Also, Sin does not need "fresh fayths." Sin persists indefinately; the Final Summoning as a tradition is merely an aspect of this. Since the Final Aeon is possessed to create a new Sin; Sin continues. However, if no Final Summoning takes place (and, in the history of Spira, Final Summonings have not been all that frequent), nothing exists that can defeat Sin, so Sin continues.

But if Sin just kill all in Spira it will not have any more "fresh" fayths to form anew. If Yu Yevon wants to be immortal AND invincible in his Sin Armor he can not kill his golden goose, i.e., the people of Spira that "feed" his invincible armor. Like a lion praying on zebras Yu Yevon / Sin would instinctively know it has to refrain from killing any on that herd for a period, after it feeds. The lion goes hunt somewhere else, Sin goes to sleep and Spira has it's Calm...
Hence Sin needs the 10 year Calm as much as Spirans do.

Makes a twisted kind of sense, heh ?

Actually, it doesn't. Yu Yevon has no desire to be immortal, or invincible. His sole desire--the desire which defines and limits his entire existence--is the desire (really, the need) to Summon Dream Zanarkand. Sin is destructive, but this has nothing to do with Yu Yevon's reality.

Also, Sin has no "need" to kill--it will not vanish or die if it goes for a protracted period without causing death. However, Sin is inherently destructive, so it will nonetheless cause death when it encounters a human population center. That is the reality of Sin.

It would not matter, by the way, if Sin wiped out humanity on Spira, as far as Yu Yevon is concerned. Yu Yevon in no way needs humanity, or a new Fayth (a new Final Aeon is only needed in case the previous one is destroyed, and the previous Final Aeon had until FFX only been destroyed by another Final Aeon). All Yu Yevon needs is for the continued existence of the original Zanarkand Fayth, as they Dream the city of Dream Zanarkand, making it real.

In a way it does, i ent to sure about the feeding habits of sin, but all sin needs the fayth for is for Yu Yevon to possess once they have destroyed sin, and so all Sin needs the calm for is to become strong again and to become big after possessing the fayth.

The Calm is merely the period of time needed for Sin to once again fully form. It's obviously no accident that Calms follow the successful completion of a Final Summoning; such periods are merely temporary respite for Spira while Sin once again forms. Yu Yevon doesn't "need" the Calm; such a time is merely a consequence of how Sin works.

Just out of curiosity, what is Tidus in X-2, i find it hard to believe he's still a dream since the fayth have stopped dreaming, but by that same token, since they're all just pyreflies on the farplane, if tidus was made to be a real person, how could the souls of the fayth do that? (if this is answered in the perfect ending, just say its in the perfect end, cos i havent seen that end yet)

Unfortunately, FFX-2 does not explain how Tidus was brought back. We're only informed that he has, somehow, returned. The game doesn't even make it completely clear as to whether Tidus is now full human, or merely once again given form through Dreaming.

The Perfect Ending reveals nothing of significance; it is merely an additional scene that follows the Good Ending. In the Perfect Ending, Tidus does contemplate the possibility that he may still be a Dream.

Tidus: Or maybe...I'm still a dream.

Yuna: Wait! So you'll disappear?

There was a short pause.

Tidus: Cherish me, Yuna. And I'll cherish you. All right? We gotta stay together.
That's what we have to do.

He says "maybe," of course, because he himself does not know. And neither does the gamer; we're left to draw our own conclusions. As the end of Dreaming only entails death, and not non-existence, it doesn't really matter; if he is a Dream, I would like to think that the Fayth would wait until he dies naturally before ending their Dream, giving him a full life before a return to the Farplane (which is the same thing that would happen if he is really human). However, based on the themes of FFX and X-2, I'd like to believe that he was given full human life. That having been said, there is no way to know. We can merely speculate as to what path the Fayth took, and to what means they resorted to achieve this end.

[Renmiri]

Yu Yevon is not at all insane, as that implies some sort of a warped will. His situation is much more profound; he cannot move beyond the Summoning. His entire existence has now been defined by the Summoning; he embodies it--he is the Summoning. "Car[ing]" what the Fayth think is a completely irrelevant statement; Yu Yevon cannot care, as that involves a concept outside of the definition that he has become.

I get that part. I just think lust for power makes a better fan fiction story..

I wonder what happened when Yu Yevon was still human, before he cast Sin for the first time. Why did he cast such a cruel monster ? Why was Sin so much above the other summoner's powers ? (Lenne's, the other fayth). Borrowing from classic sci-fi plots I can imagine here he used "the dark side of the force" to create Sin, an extremely powerful but evil Aeon (violence incarnate as Lulu says). and then got trapped into it, loosing all his free will and being just a summoning "robot".

why are you guys so sure Yu Yevon has anything to do with Dream Zanarkand ? Was in Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide ?
I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

[Christmas]

I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Until later they regretted.

Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

He leave Dream Zanarkand alone because it is his precious....and yes, he isn't that sane.

Yu Yevon can restrain Sin from attacking his precious Dream Zanarkand until Jecht came along to see his son and Sin Destructive Nature came along too and wreck the city.

On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

Go talk to Maechen in Mt Gagazet...

[Renmiri]

Until later they regretted.

Fair enough...

He leave Dream Zanarkand alone because it is his precious....and yes, he isn't that sane.

Yu Yevon can restrain Sin from attacking his precious Dream Zanarkand until Jecht came along to see his son and Sin Destructive Nature came along too and wreck the city.

Maybe it is just me but it sounds a bit forced... Yu Yevon is supposed to be almost purely a summomning tool now. But he can control himself every 10 years to leave Zanarkand alone ? Can he or can he not control himself ?

Go talk to Maechen in Mt Gagazet...

Huh ? Are you talking about the part he tells Tidus about Sin's first appearance ? I didn't read anything that would contradict my theory in his speech.

[Masamune·1600]

I get that part. I just think lust for power makes a better fan fiction story..

I wonder what happened when Yu Yevon was still human, before he cast Sin for the first time. Why did he cast such a cruel monster ? Why was Sin so much above the other summoner's powers ? (Lenne's, the other fayth). Borrowing from classic sci-fi plots I can imagine here he used "the dark side of the force" to create Sin, an extremely powerful but evil Aeon (violence incarnate as Lulu says). and then got trapped into it, loosing all his free will and being just a summoning "robot".

why are you guys so sure Yu Yevon has anything to do with Dream Zanarkand ? Was in Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega guide ?
I got the impression that Bahamut's and the other Aeons fayth, plus the Dream Zanarkand fayth are AGAINST Yu Yevon and Bevelle. They do not agree with the Yevon cult scheme and they provide Aeons for the Spira people to fight Sin. "We are not a tool of Yevon" says the unsent summoner to Yuna, remember ?

Hence my conclusion that Yu Yevon somehow betrayed the Dream Zanarkand fayth, created Sin and got together with Bevelle against their wishes. He leaves Dream Zanarkand alone because, as you say, he has no free will anymore. But when Braska takes him/ Sin there he attacks Dream Zanarkand just as he/Sin attack everything else..

On Sin needing to "feed": Mindless killing is repugnant to me so maybe I'm trying to stretch the game plot a little, but think about it : A person's death creates the most powerful Aeon after Sin, the Final Aeon. Is it too much of a leap to think that the thousands of deaths give strength to Sin ? Perhaps Sin needs that many deaths because those are not offered willingly like the Final Aeon's is.

I'm going to be fairly blunt: your theory has no basis in fact. All of your ideas are based upon fundamental misconceptions regarding the FFX mythos; in short, they are contradicted by the very source material you seek to use.

Yu Yevon, as I've tried to make clear, is not a "cruel monster." Cruelty implies intent, which goes beyond what Yu Yevon can posess. He is the embodiment of Summoning, and that is all. There is nothing else, good or bad, there.

Sin should not really be compared to the power of "other Aeons" because Sin is not an Aeon. Sin, as repeatedly demonstrated, is a shell. It is armor that, for whatever reason, is given to a kind of absolute destruction. Sin has nothing to do with the Fayth; it exists to shelter Yu Yevon during the process of Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth. Again, let me reiterate: Sin is not a "powerful, evil Aeon." It is an armor that, as constituted, realizes itself in destruction.

Yu Yevon, without question, Summons Dream Zanarkand. This is directly stated in the game by the Bahamut Fayth.

Fayth: Yes. A war between Zanarkand and Bevelle. Bevelle's machina
assured their victory from the start. Spira had never seen such power.
The summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance. Zanarkand was doomed
to oblivion. That's why we tried to save it-if only in a memory.

Tidus: What did you do?

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the
war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Tidus: The people... What, they're all dreams? Me, too?

Fayth: Yes, you're a dream of the fayth. You, your father, your mother,
everyone. All dreams. And if the fayth stop dreaming...

Yu Yevon's purpose in Summoning Dream Zanarkand, as stated, is to preserve the memory of Zanarkand. It could not win the Machina War with Bevelle, and thus was doomed. However, in Summoning the dream city, a real Zanarkand could continue to exist.

The Fayth, including the Bahamut Fayth, do wish to be free of Yu Yevon's Summoning. They're tired of Dreaming.

Tidus: No! So what if I'm a dream! I..I like being here.

Fayth: We've been dreaming so long...we're tired.

Fayth appeared on the other side.

Fayth: Would you and your father... Would you let us rest?

However, as seen in the above passage, the residents of the orignial Zanarkand who became Fayth for the Summoning were at least initially complicit in the idea.

Zanarkand was doomed
to oblivion. That's why we tried to save it-if only in a memory.

To associate Yu Yevon with Bevelle demonstrates a misunderstanding of the FFX continuity. Yu Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle; he was the leader of Zanarkand, which Bevelle fought. The Yevonite religion is effectively a corrupt power structure, similar to the Glabados Church of Final Fantasy Tactics. With Yevon, the original premise is derivative of an idea revolving around Yu Yevon, but never actually involved the Summoner. This is explained by Maechen.

Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

Dream Zanarkand itself does not have a given religion, at least so far as we are told. It is merely a continuation of the original Zanarkand. Even Yevon, after all, is a false religion. Yu Yevon most certainly never conspired with Bevelle; he is incapable of human communication. Yu Yevon embodies Sin, and embodies the Summoning. There was no betrayal; Yu Yevon merely Summons perpetually, again as directly and unambiguously stated by the Bahamut Fayth.

Death does not give strength to Sin. The entity retains strength regardless of any encounters with people; it does not grow more powerful after an attack. Moreover, realize that one does not have to "die" to become a Final Aeon; one allows Yunalesca to turn them into a Fayth, which is not exactly the same thing. Also realize that such a comparison is nonsensical to begin with since Sin is not an Aeon, and does not need a Fayth for realization.

Fan fiction often deviates from the established canon and mythology of its source, whether a video game, book, movie, or whatever. If you wish to write according to the parameters you've created, then so be it. However, because a notion appeals to you does not mean that it fits the established mythology of the game--in this case, it clearly doesn't.

Maybe it is just me but it sounds a bit forced... Yu Yevon is supposed to be almost purely a summomning tool now. But he can control himself every 10 years to leave Zanarkand alone ? Can he or can he not control himself ?

Please refer to my earlier explanation of a Calm. It has nothing to do with control; Sin does not cause death during such a period because Sin is being "rebuilt," so to speak. Following a successful Final Summoning, Sin is pierced. However, Yu Yevon simply possesses the new Final Aeon, and over a period of several years again gathers the pyreflies about that Aeon to form a new Sin.

Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon
will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it
into a new Sin.

Yuna: Yu Yevon merges with the aeon...

Fayth: Then, protected by this new Sin he has created, Yu Yevon
continues the summoning.

If Sin reformed instantaneously, there would be no true period of Calm.

[Captain Maxx Power]

OK, let me try and timeline this so I can understand it better.

1000 years ago: Bevelle and Zanarkand are at War. Zanarkand is losing, badly. The city is blitzed by Bevelle and only a few survivors and their leader, Yu Yevon are left. The citizens of Zanarkand, in order to continue on in some form, agree to become Fayth to summon Dream Zanarkand, a location which is exactly as Zanarkand was before, away from the world. They do so, and Yu Yevon devotes himself to this task. However, to protect himself he creates Sin, an armour that, intentionally or not, has an intrinsic desire to destroy. Yunalesca, the daughter of Yu Yevon and her husband Zaon attempt to stop Sin by creating the "Final Aeon", using her husband as a Fayth so powerful that it causes Yunalesca to die during the summoning process. However, this doesn't work according to plan. While the Fina Aeon defeats Sin by piercing it's armour, Yu Yevon simply possesses this Aeon. I'd assume that Yu Yevon died in this initial onslaught. Using this host body he could continue to summon Zanarkand and maintain Sin. As such the Yevon temple is created to "appease" Yu Yevon, believing that the use of Machina in the war is what caused Sin to appear, using this as a scapegoat. As such the tradition of pilgramidges starts, since no one can figure out how to defeat Sin any other way. If the strongest Aeon ever can't pull it off, what can?

Ten years before FFX: Dream Zanarkand has been around for nearly a thousand years, unaware of Spira and it's true nature. Jecht, whilst out far into sea Bliztball training comes into contact with Sin who happens to be in the neighbourhood. He is "snagged" by it and brought to the mainland, where he meets Braska and Auron and agrees to go on Braska's pilgramidge, initially hoping that finding Sin may enable him to go back home. However, over time his resolve changes, eventually realising that he cannot go back home (presumably the Fayth that create Dream Zanarkand spoke to him like they did Tidus). He becomes the Fayth for Braska, and thusly pierces Sin, becomes possessed and eventually becomes Sin once more.

During FFX: Tidus is taken from Dream Zanarkand after Jecht returns there, having some minor control over Sin. Since Sin is destructive it attacks Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not it is destroyed is up to interpretation. Presumably a new Dream Zanarkand could be created. Events happen in FFX, up until the party learn the truth. So they devise another way to defeat Sin: Destroy the Final Aeon within, allow Yu Yevon to possess the remaining Aeons and destroy them, leaving Yu Yevon without anything to possess, thusly destroying it. No Yu Yevon, no Sin, no Dream Zanarkand or it's peoples. Thusly Tidus loses his link to Spira and is sent to the Farplane like all other souls are.

Is that about right?

[Masamune·1600]

OK, let me try and timeline this so I can understand it better.

From reading over your timeline, I can say that you have it correct for the most part, Maxx.

1000 years ago: Bevelle and Zanarkand are at War. Zanarkand is losing, badly. The city is blitzed by Bevelle and only a few survivors and their leader, Yu Yevon are left.

Bevelle never actually reaches the city prior to the creation of Sin, but, yes, the war is going badly for Zanarkand.

The citizens of Zanarkand, in order to continue on in some form, agree to become Fayth to summon Dream Zanarkand, a location which is exactly as Zanarkand was before, away from the world.

Dream Zanarkand, interestingly, is not identical to the original Zanarkand; Tidus, for example, has never heard of Summoning or Aeons. Presumably, however, it very closely reflects the original, only within limits that wouldn't threaten the system that had been created.

Dream Zanarkand is a physical location in Spira; if one could visit any location on the world map, it might actually be found far out at sea.

They do so, and Yu Yevon devotes himself to this task. However, to protect himself he creates Sin, an armour that, intentionally or not, has an intrinsic desire to destroy.

Exactly.

Yunalesca, the daughter of Yu Yevon and her husband Zaon attempt to stop Sin by creating the "Final Aeon", using her husband as a Fayth so powerful that it causes Yunalesca to die during the summoning process. However, this doesn't work according to plan. While the Fina Aeon defeats Sin by piercing it's armour, Yu Yevon simply possesses this Aeon.

It's difficult to say; that is a valid reading, as Yunalesca arguably could have been interested in truly defeating Sin. Given Yunalesca's vehement defense of the Final Summoning as a tradition, however (she wouldn't even allow the party to attempt to fight Sin without it), as well as the fact that she should have been aware that creating Sin served a "greater purpose," it could also be argued that she was complicit in the perpetuation of Sin (her father, after all). At the same time, though, Sin would also be perpetuated if nothing threatened it. Either way, it seems Yunalesca's primary aim was, as suggested by Maechen, preserving her father's honor.

Also, it seems that the Final Summoning itself doesn't cause death, but rather that the Summoner is killed (ironically) by the Final Aeon, after it is possessed.

Rikku: The pilgrimages have to stop! If they don't, and they get to
Zanarkand... They might defeat Sin. Yunie could...but then she... Yunie
will die, you know? You know, don't you? Summoners journey to get the
Final Aeon. Yuna told you, didn't she? With the Final Aeon, she can beat
Sin. But then...but then... If she calls it, the Final Aeon's going to
kill her! Even if she defeats Sin, it will kill Yunie too, you know!

The implication is that the Aeon, not the process of summoning causes death. This is made clear as Yuna's Aeons attack the party after being possessed by Yu Yevon.

I'd assume that Yu Yevon died in this initial onslaught. Using this host body he could continue to summon Zanarkand and maintain Sin. As such the Yevon temple is created to "appease" Yu Yevon, believing that the use of Machina in the war is what caused Sin to appear, using this as a scapegoat. As such the tradition of pilgramidges starts, since no one can figure out how to defeat Sin any other way. If the strongest Aeon ever can't pull it off, what can?

Pretty much. It's worth noting that the Yevonite Church itself does not hesitate to use machina, suggesting that vilifying it served as a means of controlling the people of Spira.

Ten years before FFX: Dream Zanarkand has been around for nearly a thousand years, unaware of Spira and it's true nature. Jecht, whilst out far into sea Bliztball training comes into contact with Sin who happens to be in the neighbourhood. He is "snagged" by it and brought to the mainland, where he meets Braska and Auron and agrees to go on Braska's pilgramidge, initially hoping that finding Sin may enable him to go back home. However, over time his resolve changes, eventually realising that he cannot go back home (presumably the Fayth that create Dream Zanarkand spoke to him like they did Tidus). He becomes the Fayth for Braska, and thusly pierces Sin, becomes possessed and eventually becomes Sin once more.

Yes.

During FFX: Tidus is taken from Dream Zanarkand after Jecht returns there, having some minor control over Sin. Since Sin is destructive it attacks Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not it is destroyed is up to interpretation. Presumably a new Dream Zanarkand could be created. Events happen in FFX, up until the party learn the truth. So they devise another way to defeat Sin: Destroy the Final Aeon within, allow Yu Yevon to possess the remaining Aeons and destroy them, leaving Yu Yevon without anything to possess, thusly destroying it. No Yu Yevon, no Sin, no Dream Zanarkand or it's peoples. Thusly Tidus loses his link to Spira and is sent to the Farplane like all other souls are.

Is that about right?

Yes. All in all, that's a pretty good overview of the backstory and actual events of FFX.

[Renmiri]

I'm going to be fairly blunt: your theory has no basis in fact. All of your ideas are based upon fundamental misconceptions regarding the FFX mythos

Could be, I'm not trying to refute or reinvent anything. I'm just trying to understand it better. I'm sorry if I am annoying you. Believe it or not, your posts are helping me tremendously, even if we don't agree in every point. I have a much better understanding of the mythology now and I believe my writing can only benefit from this new understanding.

Yu Yevon, without question, Summons Dream Zanarkand. This is directly stated in the game by the Bahamut Fayth.

There is NO mention of Yu Yevon in the quote you posted. It states, like I said myself, that someone summoned Dream Zanarkand and the people from Zanarkand were used as fayth willingly, but it is by no means clear that the summoner was Yu Yevon. Lenne from FFX2 was also a High Summoner from Zanarkand at that exact period in time. IMHO Yu Yevon betrayed his Zanarkand brethrem and did something they didn't want to be a part off: create a violent thing like Sin, hence their long standing efforts to battle Sin, with the Aeons they could create: Bahamut, Ixion, Ifrit...

. Yu Yevon most certainly never conspired with Bevelle; he is incapable of human communication...

Yes, now and for the past 1,000 years. But we know Yu Yevon was human once, we know he had a child, he had free will and all that. At that time - before his transformation - he could have betrayed Zanarkand

Please refer to my earlier explanation of a Calm... Yu Yevon simply possesses the new Final Aeon, and over a period of several years again gathers the pyreflies about that Aeon to form a new Sin.If Sin reformed instantaneously, there would be no true period of Calm.

Sounds good. But where do pireflies come from ? Don't they came from the dead of Spira ?
So if I wrote that Sin "feeds" on the pireflies of the people it kills I would not be far from the truth, would I ?.


PS: If you want to beat me up some more on my misconceptions of the mythos, check out more of my crazy ideas being slapped about by other posters in this thread. I'm moving most of my questions for you there, to avoid boring everyone here. Join me there if you still want to chat about it, OK ?
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?p=1426028