First official AC reviews are in. Do you agree?

[Ishin Ookami]

Most of the video game press for spirits within follows this timeline

Prior to the release - This will be the best video game movie ever

At the time of the release - its not for everyone, but its still a great film that should be seen.

a few months after the release - hahahahaha, did you hear the latest "spirits within bombed" joke? too bad though, it was a pretty good movie"

during the making of AC - man spirits within sucked. This should be better.

The irony is Official Playstation magazine, which is a Ziff Davis publication, reviewed the DVD very favorably at about 4/5, and ran a huge article on the movie praising it, and interviewing the cast and creators. Now go to 1up, which archives most of the articles from its publications, and look for The review of spirits within, or even the article which praised it so much. You wont be able to find it. Which I do find rather hypocritical.

[Miriel]

This was a movie that was made specifically for the fans of the game. It shouldn't come as a surprise that gaming publications would love the movie. Now, if major critics from Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Los Angeles Times were to review this movie, I doubt it would be anything less than a major flop. Advent Children is what it is. No need to get angry just cause people enjoyed a movie that you apparently hated.

[?????]

taking a look at gamerankings, you can see here that the first offical Advent Children reviews are in. And personally, I think these reviews have been bought by square.

EGM has been stating the same comments since the films preview in Venice. Its better than Spirits within (bullshizcz!), it features the only Final Fantasy cast people care about (FFVI fans, launch flaming emails now!), it looks cooler than anime and Hong Kong action flicks (since when did EGM or Ziff Davis publications in general even care about either?) and FFVII, the game that made rpg's popular in america. They've been repeating the same old comments time and again for so long that it really does feel as though they are reading from some sort of script. Yah, they touch on briefly that the plot sucks, then go back to trying to make you believe its the greatest film since Seven Samurai. I dont mind differring opinions, but fanboyish rantings from people who frequently boast about journalistic integrety gets a bit nauseating. Surprisingly though, they managed to restrain themselves and dock the film a 15% for the lacking plot. But still, their score of 85% is overly generous IMO

Gaming Evolution is just a bit better, once again they bust out the cliche mocking the commercial failure of Spirits within, then go on to repeat the same material without referring to anime or Hong kong films. They award AC a 95% despite admitting the plot is weak. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with that?

PSXEvolution UK's review is the most nauseating one. I mean at least most people who like the film can state that the plot lacked. Serverely. These guys are trying to tell you that the plot was "spectacular". I kid you not. In fact though they rarely have a negative comment they score the movie the lowest, at a 80%. And yes, the obligatory dig at sprits within is made.

You know, the irony is that all three publications are people who praised the film before and during its release, but have since then jumped on the bandwagon in favor of beating this dead horse rather then offend the masses. Offering publications an early exclusive for favors is not totally unheard of, and these reviews just dont really sound all that objective. I mean I can look at reviews for MGS and Devil may cry, reviews that are very generous yet they at least pay attention to flaws and mark the film on its own merits rather then make you think its better then products the target audiance has never heard of. I mean I really doubt the target audiance for AC had the patience to sit through Ghost in the shell or Crouching tiger hidden dragon, so why make the comparisons? and if the plot (a vital element needed in any movie) is so weak then how come the scores are so high? Michael Bay takes hits for his action over story approach, but Id call Armegeddon or Con Air a masterpiece of storytelling over AC anyday.

I dont want to come accross as a hater, but I do get sick of all the "OMFG, AC EFFING ROXXORZZ" comments and welcome those who can actually make a intelligent argument or point on the film instead of fanboyish ranting. These "Journalists" however just come accross as the former in their articles, rather then the latter IMO. But I could be wrong, what say the rest of you.

The target audience for AC probably would sit through Ghost in the Shell or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually.

And FFVII's cast IS the cast that the most people care about. Quite a few people care about the cast of the others, but VII simply has the most fans. It's one of the standards by which all other RPGs are judged, simple as that.

Quite frankly, that entire essay sounds like something written by an emo/goth loser who hates the idea of liking something that other people like for the sake of being an "individual." Well, stop it. You're not fooling anyone. So you didn't like the movie. That's your right. But accusing AC of having less depth than MICHAEL F**KING BAY? I'm sorry, but that's an example of what can objectively be described as idiocy. There ARE absolute standards by which art can be judged, and your little rant fails at understanding every last one of them.

[Ishin Ookami]

The target audience for AC probably would sit through Ghost in the Shell or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually.

Doubtful. Both those films have something Advent Children lacks completely. A plot. Then take into account that both these films have subplots, and have rooted history's (CTHD is based on #4 in a pentology of old novels, GITS had its world more fully explored by the manga of the same name) and yes, the average average FFVII fan would NOT be familiar with these films or the media that they are from.

And FFVII's cast IS the cast that the most people care about. Quite a few people care about the cast of the others, but VII simply has the most fans. It's one of the standards by which all other RPGs are judged, simple as that.

The majority of people who have played FFVI would disagree. Heavily. all FFVII did was set the standard for graphics. FFVI set the standard for storytelling, gameplay, music, and challenge.

Quite frankly, that entire essay sounds like something written by an emo/goth loser who hates the idea of liking something that other people like for the sake of being an "individual." Well, stop it. You're not fooling anyone. So you didn't like the movie. That's your right. But accusing AC of having less depth than MICHAEL F**KING BAY? I'm sorry, but that's an example of what can objectively be described as idiocy. There ARE absolute standards by which art can be judged, and your little rant fails at understanding every last one of them.

Kid, I gave this film a 60% on video game boards, and of those boards I gave it a 40%. Those arent totally horrid ratings you know. maybe you should actually try to make some valid points and read through the entire post, and think up some good arguments rather than trying to flame someone who disagree's with you.

And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonnance than AC. At least when people are dead in Michael Bay's films, they stay dead. come talk to me bout idiocy when the version of AC comes out where Aeries doesnt save clouds life twice, cure the geostigma, resurrect him when he gets blown away, and tend to the sick children at the end.

This was a movie that was made specifically for the fans of the game. It shouldn't come as a surprise that gaming publications would love the movie. Now, if major critics from Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Los Angeles Times were to review this movie, I doubt it would be anything less than a major flop. Advent Children is what it is. No need to get angry just cause people enjoyed a movie that you apparently hated.

Actually, guess what? Ive seen unfavorable reviews for Final Fantasy IV, X, VI IX, and other of my favorite video game titles. The difference here is those reviews were reviews. They made sense (in their own way) and stuck to relevant subject matter. Insulting mediums the target audiance has never heard of, insulting films you praised before it became uncool to like them, and mentioning the flaws without really deducting marks for them, thats just sloppy journalism. And I'd really like to know what drugs those guys who called this plot "spectacular" are on, or how much square is paying them. I personally think the fatal frame series kicks silent hill and resident evil to the curb, but alot of people just cant take in the very japanese vibe and the slower paced storytelling and gameplay. I dont mind that, calling AC a masterpiece of storytelling, your either stupid or just getting paid to say so. though I shouldnt really mention any names should I ??????

[Miriel]

A person's opinion is just that, their opinion. There are tons of people out there who thought Chicago was an amazing movie with an amazing storyline. I thought it sucked. I'm talking hardcore suckage here. Yes, there are going to be people out there who think that Advent Children had a great storyline. They're not asking you to agree with them, so just chill.

[?????]

Doubtful. Both those films have something Advent Children lacks completely. A plot. Then take into account that both these films have subplots, and have rooted history's (CTHD is based on #4 in a pentology of old novels, GITS had its world more fully explored by the manga of the same name) and yes, the average average FFVII fan would NOT be familiar with these films or the media that they are from.

This is an assumption so large I don't even know where to start debunking it. Are you trying to tell me that I can't enjoy or understand a Kubrick film simply because I happen to like Adam Sandler as well? I never said Advent Children was the greatest film of all time. It isn't. Its audience is limited to fans of the game; to be truly great, a film, or other work of art, must reach a mass audience in ways that don't even need to be explained.

The majority of people who have played FFVI would disagree. Heavily. All FFVII did was set the standard for graphics. FFVI set the standard for storytelling, gameplay, music, and challenge.

You're just proving my point; you don't like VII's popularity, so you're trying to build VI into some kind of god-figure among RPGs. Now you're not gonna find me dissing on VI; it's a great game, and if it hadn't been for VI, many elements of the later FF games would be nonexistent. However, VI quite simply didn't share the scope of VII. You can blame it on the limits of the technology if you'd like, but the facts remain the same; VI's story was not as deep or complex as VII's. You can like VI more on a personal level if you feel like it, but from a literary point of view, Final Fantasy VII did indeed set the standard for storytelling in modern RPGs.

And for god's sake, Kefka was not that great of a villain. He was a great comedy act. Comedy act =/= villain. He may have done the one-winged angel thing first, but Sephiroth did it better. FAR better. Kefka's "godliness" came absolutely out of nowhere and came off as little more than cinematics; Sephiroth's had been building up for the entire game.

Kid, I gave this film a 60% on video game boards, and of those boards I gave it a 40%. Those arent totally horrid ratings you know. maybe you should actually try to make some valid points and read through the entire post, and think up some good arguments rather than trying to flame someone who disagree's with you.

I would suggest that you not speak in such a manner to those more knowledgeable than yourself.

And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonance than AC.

No, it doesn't. That statement was crazed ranting of someone desperately trying to establish an identity. No more, no less.

come talk to me bout idiocy when the version of AC comes out where Aeries doesnt save clouds life twice, cure the geostigma, resurrect him when he gets blown away, and tend to the sick children at the end.

For the record, Cloud didn't actually die, regardless of what anyone else will tell you, so your objection is moot. Actually resurrecting someone is impossible; it wasn't the true Sephiroth that Cloud fought in AC. The advanced technology and medicine of Final Fantasy VII can cure quite a lot, but it doesn't save you if you're already dead. This is what happened to Aeris. Seeing as Cloud is still alive, he must merely have been having some sort of dream sequence, where Aeris' appearance would be feasible.

And think about it for a second: even near the beginning of FFVII, Cloud survived a fall greater than 150 meters and escaped not only unscathed, but with a hot new lady friend. But we'll just focus on the fall and leave my peni--I mean the dynamics of Cloud and Aeris' relationship for another discussion. That's 487.5 feet, roughly the equivalent of falling out of the top window of a fifty-story building. Is it any wonder that machine gun rounds do insubstantial damage to him? Aeris gives him hitting the flowers as a justification for his survival, but Aeris is apparently too hot to know physics; a normal person would still have died even if they'd hit a mattress. The net force on a body, in nonrelativistic mechanics, is equal to its mass times its acceleration. The direction of the acceleration makes no difference here; the magnitude is still the same. Remember that because of Newton's laws, the ground must supply a force equivalent to Cloud's mass times 9.81 m/s^2 over the time it takes Cloud to decelerate from his fall. This time will be extremely short, short enough to be similar to the time if he'd simply crashed onto the ground. I shouldn't have to bother calculating it, because it's clear that unless Cloud has a composition fit for legends, he will die from this crash. The fact that he lived at all after that, let alone was able to walk and fight at full capacity no more than a few days at most after the incident is enough proof that he can take a single gunshot, even if it's in the heart. Add that to deflecting bullets, beating the hell out of tank droids singlehandedly, taking falling rocks to the head, slay four Weapons, at full strength falling from stratospheric heights onto hard metal without so much as a scratch, AND beating Sephiroth, and it's even easier to believe he survived. Cloud should have by all rights been vaporized by Bahamut SIN's giant fireball-ish thing of death. Bahamut ZERO, presumably a lesser form of Bahamut than SIN, had blast effects visible from orbit, and can easily defeat Ultima Weapon unaided. From this and the sheer size of SIN's final attack, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the blast was intended to utterly destroy the Midgar area. I looked up some figures to see just how large this could be. Midgar's size on the computer monitor on the train early in the game is roughly 1/10,000 scale. Suppose that that monitor is roughly the same size as my own, which would render the scale model of Midgar about two feet in diameter. Following from this is a radius of 10,000 feet for all of Midgar. This corresponds to ~3076 m, or 3.076 km. As the area of a circle is pi*r^2, the area of Midgar is around 29.7 km^2, just over half of the land area of Manhattan Island. That's probably a generous estimate, but nevertheless, the city's actual metal content is likely far higher than that of even the present world's largest cities, considering the immense metal plates and supports that the city is built upon, as well as the eight Mako reactors. Unfortunately, I can't readily find a shot of Bahamut ZERO's blast so as to scale its effects to SIN's shot, but I don't need that to prove that being able to take an attack intended to utterly demolish a sprawling megalopolis makes it fairly easy to believe that Cloud survived a hit to the heart.

Any normal human would have been literally crushed into goo by the beatings Cloud's taken. Basically, anything that isn't an instant kill shot will not defeat Cloud. Hell, even most of the stuff that DOES kill normal people instantly won't off him. It's almost to the point where you'd have to go find a Death Star just to make sure there's no one around to heal him. Hell, if Supernova wasn't just a convincing illusion generated by perversions of the magic of the Lifestream, you'd even have to rule out nuking the Earth as an option. He's just that goddamned tough; he's almost like fricking Superman. Is he the toughest fighter ever in the history of sci-fi and fantasy? No, believe it or not. There are people who've accomplished feats comparable to or even crazier than all the ones I just listed; Link for the former category (he's all that comes to mind right now), and for the latter, some incarnations of Superman, beings like the Q, Hellsing's Alucard, and several different Force-users including Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine all come to mind. But Cloud's easily tough enough that your objection about Aeris continually rescuing him is moot.

Insulting mediums the target audiance has never heard of, insulting films you praised before it became uncool to like them, and mentioning the flaws without really deducting marks for them, thats just sloppy journalism.

This is just about the only part of your rant that I can agree with. The way people have treated TSW is unwarranted.

And I'd really like to know what drugs those guys who called this plot "spectacular" are on, or how much square is paying them.

The plot itself is fairly simplistic. It isn't nearly as complicated as the game that spawned it, but with regards to Cloud's character, it works.

[SoulTaker*]

What he said, Cloud is a total badass. People dont like Fatal Frame because they pick up a game to have an interactive experience while being thrilled at the same time, not to watch a movie, and playing Fatal Frame feels like watching a movie, its creepy but its hard to stack that up against the Resident Evil series, and your right it is slow, very, very slow. Alot more people than you think enjoyed CTHD, I dont know if you live in a bubble but it isnt that rare compared to 10 years ago to find someone who has seen GITS, Akira, or Eva, since they got about 5 anima's playing after Family Guy on cartoon network including Eva, and they dont have to know the background of the movies to enjoy it.

I have never played through VI to know if it is better than VII, I'm guessing no since I havent met 2 people in my whole life that have beaten it, I tried but after 20 minutes I had to turn the emu off, It would have probably had been better to play VI first then play VII,VIII,IX and X.

Maybe it would have been better to have renamed Advent Children Clouds story. It would dispell the illusion that any Cloud haters would have as to who is the main character of the story.

[Setzer Gabianni]

It doesn't take a genius to work out who the main character was.

Cloud isn't a total badass. Squall is more of a badass.

Play through FFVI fully before commention further on any other FF. For me, it was the final FF I have played recently, and it does surpass or match FFVII in many areas.

????? did you actually type all that up? If so, could you summarise it? I have trouble reading some of the print all squished up >.<

[SoulTaker*]

If you could read my squished up typing you would realise that I basically stated I wasnt gonna comment on VI since I never completed it, I'm saying that it probably isnt better than VII since VII didnt have that great of graphics and still stands up to X, and I honestly havent met that many people that have completed VI, but I do hear good things. And I do think Squall is more of a badass than Cloud from the beginning of disc 1 to the end of disc 3.

[Setzer Gabianni]

I was on about ?????, the actual member, not you XD.

I could read your post duh =P

[SoulTaker*]

My bad. Seeing how your post was 20 min after mine and it does kind of mirror an answer to everything I said, was kind of easy to get mixed up. But I did kind of read though question marks post, and it has something to do with Cloud being a total badass and how he kicks every VI characters butt with his hands tied.

[Ishin Ookami]

[QUOTE=?????]This is an assumption so large I don't even know where to start debunking it. Are you trying to tell me that I can't enjoy or understand a Kubrick film simply because I happen to like Adam Sandler as well? I never said Advent Children was the greatest film of all time. It isn't. Its audience is limited to fans of the game; to be truly great, a film, or other work of art, must reach a mass audience in ways that don't even need to be explained.

You're just proving my point; you don't like VII's popularity, so you're trying to build VI into some kind of god-figure among RPGs. Now you're not gonna find me dissing on VI; it's a great game, and if it hadn't been for VI, many elements of the later FF games would be nonexistent. However, VI quite simply didn't share the scope of VII. You can blame it on the limits of the technology if you'd like, but the facts remain the same; VI's story was not as deep or complex as VII's. You can like VI more on a personal level if you feel like it, but from a literary point of view, Final Fantasy VII did indeed set the standard for storytelling in modern RPGs.

you mind making some points instead of talking some smack? FFVII's idea of finding something to be attatched too is a contrived love triangle. FFVI's idea of finding something to be emotionally attatched to is taking a character who never HAD a childhood, who never knew her mother, who only knew her father's spirit, who had been raised since before she could crawl to KILL, and having her be responsible for a villaige of orphans.

And for god's sake, Kefka was not that great of a villain. He was a great comedy act. Comedy act =/= villain. He may have done the one-winged angel thing first, but Sephiroth did it better. FAR better. Kefka's "godliness" came absolutely out of nowhere and came off as little more than cinematics; Sephiroth's had been building up for the entire game.

once again, your just talking smack instead of making points. Kefka's godliness came from years of scheming, he was a magitech knight like Celes who was a prototype, and as a result he was hopelessly insane, but crazy powerful. he added to those powers to syphoning the magical forces from the espers he captured, then used those powers in conjuction to kill all the remaining espers, uses those combined powers to wake the goddesses, uses their power to create a mass appoccalypse, and after a year of stealing their powers is a vengeful god. and a rather likeable (in the sense that you can like a truly great villain) one at that. Sephiroth was a wannabe who never could be. he couldnt obtain true power, so he used meteor. he could never get anything done himself, so he used cloud. His claim to fame is killing a church girl in a CGI cutscene, Kefka's claim to fame is mass genocide and creating an appocalypse. And your tyring to tell me Sephiroth did the whole god thing better? he looked prettier I suppose, but thats nothing to boast about.

And for the record, as silly as Con Air was, It's story has far more emotional resonance than AC.

No, it doesn't. That statement was crazed ranting of someone desperately trying to establish an identity. No more, no less.

you know, I always preferred the mediterranian over the river of De-Nial when it comes to sailing. but hey, different strokes. :rolleyes2

At least con air did the whole "lets rip off john woo" better then AC. And being a fan of clever satire, I actually enjoy Michael Bays Satiric sense of humor in his earlier films

For the record, Cloud didn't actually die, regardless of what anyone else will tell you, so your objection is moot. Actually resurrecting someone is impossible; it wasn't the true Sephiroth that Cloud fought in AC. The advanced technology and medicine of Final Fantasy VII can cure quite a lot, but it doesn't save you if you're already dead. This is what happened to Aeris. Seeing as Cloud is still alive, he must merely have been having some sort of dream sequence, where Aeris' appearance would be feasible.

He was blown up, the entire surface of the building went kablooey. he was in the life stream and ended up back in the wellspring in the church. he was dead. Deal with it.

And think about it for a second: even near the beginning of FFVII, Cloud survived a fall greater than 150 meters and escaped not only unscathed, but with a hot new lady friend. But we'll just focus on the fall and leave my peni--I mean the dynamics of Cloud and Aeris' relationship for another discussion. That's 487.5 feet, roughly the equivalent of falling out of the top window of a fifty-story building. Is it any wonder that machine gun rounds do insubstantial damage to him? Aeris gives him hitting the flowers as a justification for his survival, but Aeris is apparently too hot to know physics; a normal person would still have died even if they'd hit a mattress. The net force on a body, in nonrelativistic mechanics, is equal to its mass times its acceleration. The direction of the acceleration makes no difference here; the magnitude is still the same. Remember that because of Newton's laws, the ground must supply a force equivalent to Cloud's mass times 9.81 m/s^2 over the time it takes Cloud to decelerate from his fall. I just feel compelled to mention at this time that the term, analysis is technically a compound word. The word anal, which needs no introduction. and the word ysis, which is taken from the greek language and which means; To draw numbers out of. I now return you to ?????'s analysis. This time will be extremely short, short enough to be similar to the time if he'd simply crashed onto the ground. I shouldn't have to bother calculating it, because it's clear that unless Cloud has a composition fit for legends, he will die from this crash. The fact that he lived at all after that, let alone was able to walk and fight at full capacity no more than a few days at most after the incident is enough proof that he can take a single gunshot, even if it's in the heart. Add that to deflecting bullets, beating the hell out of tank droids singlehandedly, taking falling rocks to the head, slay four Weapons, at full strength falling from stratospheric heights onto hard metal without so much as a scratch, AND beating Sephiroth, and it's even easier to believe he survived. Cloud should have by all rights been vaporized by Bahamut SIN's giant fireball-ish thing of death. Bahamut ZERO, presumably a lesser form of Bahamut than SIN, had blast effects visible from orbit, and can easily defeat Ultima Weapon unaided. From this and the sheer size of SIN's final attack, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the blast was intended to utterly destroy the Midgar area. I looked up some figures to see just how large this could be. Midgar's size on the computer monitor on the train early in the game is roughly 1/10,000 scale. Suppose that that monitor is roughly the same size as my own, which would render the scale model of Midgar about two feet in diameter. Following from this is a radius of 10,000 feet for all of Midgar. This corresponds to ~3076 m, or 3.076 km. As the area of a circle is pi*r^2, the area of Midgar is around 29.7 km^2, just over half of the land area of Manhattan Island. That's probably a generous estimate, but nevertheless, the city's actual metal content is likely far higher than that of even the present world's largest cities, considering the immense metal plates and supports that the city is built upon, as well as the eight Mako reactors. Unfortunately, I can't readily find a shot of Bahamut ZERO's blast so as to scale its effects to SIN's shot, but I don't need that to prove that being able to take an attack intended to utterly demolish a sprawling megalopolis makes it fairly easy to believe that Cloud survived a hit to the heart.

First of all, that shows considerably more than a few seconds worth of thinking. Obsess much?

and lets accept some real physics instead of fanboy physics here. Ive seen some incredible acts of stamina, endurance, power, and conditioning while studying martial arts. Therefore while its a stretch to assume that even a genetically enhanced supersolider can survive that much of a fall, Ive seen worse in various anime and films so I can learn to overlook contrivances like that. But its also a fact that no matter how well conditioned and trained an individual is, if their heart is grievely injured, they are going to die. and if they do not die immediately then they will be incapable of acting with the same physical ability as they were previously before they die.

Any normal human would have been literally crushed into goo by the beatings Cloud's taken. Basically, anything that isn't an instant kill shot will not defeat Cloud. Hell, even most of the stuff that DOES kill normal people instantly won't off him. It's almost to the point where you'd have to go find a Death Star just to make sure there's no one around to heal him. Hell, if Supernova wasn't just a convincing illusion generated by perversions of the magic of the Lifestream, you'd even have to rule out nuking the Earth as an option. He's just that goddamned tough; he's almost like fricking Superman. Is he the toughest fighter ever in the history of sci-fi and fantasy? No, believe it or not. There are people who've accomplished feats comparable to or even crazier than all the ones I just listed; Link for the former category (he's all that comes to mind right now), and for the latter, some incarnations of Superman, beings like the Q, Hellsing's Alucard, and several different Force-users including Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine all come to mind. But Cloud's easily tough enough that your objection about Aeris continually rescuing him is moot.

Sadly, clouds superhuman abilities all come from the fact that nomura is a hack of a storyteller, who is incapable of creating anything original, and thus rips off other media for ideas and yet his direction is so ametuerish and covered up by production values that even when he copies formula's point for point, he fails to convey the same dramatic impact. Like I said, just say the word and I'll give you a shopping list for some films that are so well filmed that they show you that AC is not the greatest action film ever. And I find that the star wars refferrences are quite suitable seeing as how I would say that AC has less genuine story then even Phantom Menace, and I'd sooner see Jar Jar go to war again then see cloud work through his psychosis a third time. Or get resurrected yet again. I think he's been killed three or four times now? guys like a damn cockroach. Maybe you like a hero that is infallable, but a character who struggles, muddles through, and actually has to fight for what he has is far more likeable then an unkillable superman. In the star wars novels one of the writers went on record by saying that in the post Dark Empire stories, Luke Was nigh impossible to write for since he was so powerful in the force by that point. Which Zahn proved was not the case as like spiderman and superman, luke has to struggle with his powers and make sure they dont consume him and thus he is fallible. Finally having him and mara jade hook up also helped reveal a more human side to him, but thats for another post.

Also, you may consider that as someone who prides himself on being well read (I am studying to become a teacher in english, and martial arts in the near future) Ive SEEN films from japan, including anime and live action horror and action as well as from hong kong that have not been distributed by hollywood's studios, and after years of doing so I would not purchase a foreign movie distributed by an american studio due to the practice of shoddy translations, scene deletion, and cultural refferrences being deleted or edited as well the musical score being redone. I saw the hollywood distributed version of black mask before I saw the hong kong version, and yes they are worlds apart. The holllywood version cut 20 minutes of dialouge, character growth, and even some of the more interesting action scenes along with rewriting the script to be more happy happy and put in the awful rap musing where the original had quite the likeable jazzy mellow themes to underscore the action. So, yah. Ive seen more then the average joe and trust me. AC is Derivative. its Deus Ex Machina composed in cinematic form, and directed by a hack. Believe it or not, makes no difference. Its true. and once you've seen that much, your not going to find much to like in AC... though my younger female friends like to rewatch AC not for the story or action, but rather because they cant decide whether vincent or reno is hotter. Which, by the way is evidance enough of why they are "just friends" :rolleyes2

[SoulTaker*]

Kefka looks like a sideshow clown reject, I dont know wether it was Amano's art style or what but he looked positively whack, and during the 20 minutes of playing the game I heard his laugh and I just wanted to crush his 16 bit body. After facing Sephiroth Cloud would probably just laugh at him.

And killing Aeris is not the only thing Seph is remembered for, he also burned an entire city to the ground killing almost everyone by himself without special powers, I also remember how hard I struggled to get past Zolom without a chocobo my first time through the game, i final get past him like my 8th time and I walk in the cave, then I see a Zolom impaled on a tree, Sephiroth was cemented as a badass after that, and throughout the game you get little hints as too no matter how much you level up he will always be ahead of you, and Sephiroth didnt summon Meteor to destroy the world he summoned it so that he could gather all of the energy at the life stream, and I bet if he became a full god it wouldnt take just 4 16 bit characters that nobody outside of the regular fanboys/girls remembers to kill him, unlike Kefka.

On a side note, Cloud went through scientific testing, seeing his best friend gunned down, and his home town with his mother in it burned to the ground, and also seeing his supposed love interest impaled right before his eyes would make anybody unsure of himself, like in AC he comments on how they just watched her die, not to mention seph was smurfing with his mind the whole game, and people under severe psychological stress might see a ghost or two if they want to see him/her badly enough, I would want a ghost as strong as Aeris on my side. He also feels responsible for Zach since Zach probably wouldnt have died if he hadnt been taking care of Cloud. Zach told Cloud stories about all the things he wanted to do, and Cloud feeling guilty is basically living Zachs life in AC, this is alot of stress and pressure to lay on one mans shoulders(as if he was a real person:rolleyes2) and he still comes through at the end of the day, winning with style.

This isnt about whether VII is better than VI, Im sure VI is a very well written story, but without style to go along with substance you dont get very far, VII combines both style and substance and you get a smash hit which even people who never play an RPG's remember.

[?????]

you mind making some points instead of talking some smack? FFVII's idea of finding something to be attatched too is a contrived love triangle. FFVI's idea of finding something to be emotionally attatched to is taking a character who never HAD a childhood, who never knew her mother, who only knew her father's spirit, who had been raised since before she could crawl to KILL, and having her be responsible for a villaige of orphans.

That wasn't even vaguely related to what you were replying to.

Sephiroth was a wannabe who never could be. he couldnt obtain true power, so he used meteor. he could never get anything done himself, so he used cloud. His claim to fame is killing a church girl in a CGI cutscene, Kefka's claim to fame is mass genocide and creating an appocalypse. And your tyring to tell me Sephiroth did the whole god thing better? he looked prettier I suppose, but thats nothing to boast about.

Once again, you're being a fanboy and ignoring the facts. You're overlooking the fact that Kefka's power was never his own. Sephiroth put together quite a complicated plan and accomplished it through sheer force of will; very few instances in FFVII were actually him, but projections of him operating under his direction. They were projections of his sheer will. And you're acting as though Sephiroth doesn't have a massive kill tally. All Kefka did was push a couple of statues around. It wasn't hard to figure out what he was doing. No one's saying Kefka isn't callous. He is. But he isn't as good of a villain.

He was blown up, the entire surface of the building went kablooey. he was in the life stream and ended up back in the wellspring in the church. he was dead. Deal with it.

No, he wasn't, as I prove below.

and lets accept some real physics instead of fanboy physics here.

You got another set of calcs? Let's hear 'em. Unless you're in the natural sciences, quite frankly I'd better not hear that out of you, because I AM. If I were practicing fanboy physics, I'd be trying to proclaim that Cloud is stronger than Galactus or Unicron. He's clearly not. I like Cloud and think he kicks a hell of a lot of ass, but I'm not going to go saying he can even hold a candle to full-fledged planet-eaters, or even much stronger melee combatants.

Ive seen some incredible acts of stamina, endurance, power, and conditioning while studying martial arts.

You've seen people survive city-destroying energy blasts, break every bone in their body and live, use telekinesis, and swing swords intended for mecha around like rag dolls? Man, I'd love to take classes at your dojo.

But its also a fact that no matter how well conditioned and trained an individual is, if their heart is grievely injured, they are going to die. and if they do not die immediately then they will be incapable of acting with the same physical ability as they were previously before they die.

Alucard can get literally shot to pieces with machine guns and reassemble himself. Jedi can heal after almost every bone in their body has been broken and consequently, much of their circulatory and nervous systems have been destroyed. Getting shot in the heart isn't an instant kill, and Cloud survives at full functionality, so obviously for someone with his strength or higher it isn't a fact.

Sadly, clouds superhuman abilities all come from the fact that nomura is a hack of a storyteller, who is incapable of creating anything original, and thus rips off other media for ideas and yet his direction is so ametuerish and covered up by production values that even when he copies formula's point for point, he fails to convey the same dramatic impact.

First you diss his strength after CLEAR proof that it's quite substantial, and now you switch tunes and acknowledge it only to half-assedly attempt to turn it on Nomura? You're treading thin ice, boy.

Like I said, just say the word and I'll give you a shopping list for some films that are so well filmed that they show you that AC is not the greatest action film ever.

When did I ever say it was the greatest action film ever? I personally enjoy it the most, but this alone doesn't make it the greatest; its audience is still a niche, even as large as the FF fanbase is.

And I find that the star wars refferrences are quite suitable seeing as how I would say that AC has less genuine story then even Phantom Menace, and I'd sooner see Jar Jar go to war again then see cloud work through his psychosis a third time.

Phantom Menace does have quite a bit of story. Unfortunately, it's bogged down by rather wooden acting.

Maybe you like a hero that is infallable, but a character who struggles, muddles through, and actually has to fight for what he has is far more likeable then an unkillable superman.

Cloud isn't unkillable. He's simply not easily defeated. No one's unkillable, not even Superman.

In the star wars novels one of the writers went on record by saying that in the post Dark Empire stories, Luke Was nigh impossible to write for since he was so powerful in the force by that point. Which Zahn proved was not the case as like spiderman and superman, luke has to struggle with his powers and make sure they dont consume him and thus he is fallible. Finally having him and mara jade hook up also helped reveal a more human side to him, but thats for another post.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. And Luke is indeed almost impossible to write for; I'm glad they finally did like Zahn had intended and hooked him and Mara up. There are those, of course, who call her a witch or a harlot, refusing to see the fact that his first "love," Shira Brie, is actively a Sith Lord.

Also, you may consider that as someone who prides himself on being well read (I am studying to become a teacher in english, and martial arts in the near future) Ive SEEN films from japan, including anime and live action horror and action as well as from hong kong that have not been distributed by hollywood's studios, and after years of doing so I would not purchase a foreign movie distributed by an american studio due to the practice of shoddy translations, scene deletion, and cultural refferrences being deleted or edited as well the musical score being redone.

So have many other people. This doesn't make you unique.

So, yah. Ive seen more then the average joe and trust me. AC is Derivative. its Deus Ex Machina composed in cinematic form, and directed by a hack. Believe it or not, makes no difference. Its true. and once you've seen that much, your not going to find much to like in AC... though my younger female friends like to rewatch AC not for the story or action, but rather because they cant decide whether vincent or reno is hotter. Which, by the way is evidance enough of why they are "just friends" :rolleyes2

I'd hardly consider myself an average Joe. I'll agree that AC doesn't have a particularly complex plot. Most movies don't. Did you want them to stretch it out to three hours long? Wait, actually, I wouldn't mind that. For what it was, it was damn good.

And SEPHIROTH is the hottest. Any other opinion is blasphemy.

[Ishin Ookami]

Lemme guess, FFVII was the first RPG you ever played right? and you just cant play 16-bit cuz there isnt any FMV right? and your calling FFVI fans fanboys? whatever :rolleyes2

Zolom was a simple snake, Espers were creatures that nearly destroyed the world themselves, and Kefka killed them all. ALL OF THEM. AT ONCE! and actually if you had played the game instead of reading the summary, it took your entire party to fight him. Kefka would look at sephs leather lovin fetish and laugh in that laugh we all know and love and wipe him off the face of the earth. Say what you will about the wacky clown getup, but you mean to tell me you can look at sephs tight leather and big sword fetish and not shudder? Me no swing dat way thank you very much. seph was as incompetent as the man who created him (talkin bout Nomura here) and yes he did do more than that, but his resume peaks at "stabbed church girl through the chest, did I mention I love leather?" Spehs a pretender chum, aint nothin fanboyish about it. He just failed to accomplish half the villainy Kefka did. And yah yah, if he summoned the meteor and abosorbed the powers... woulda, coulda, didnt. End of story. Kefka is what the joker from batman would be if you gave him godlike powers. Seph? what exactly did he do besides burn down a hick town, mind funk cloud, stab a church girl, hide in a crater and impale zolom? Sorry but he's lame. Overrated. Maybe its the leather and big sword that draws his fans. :rolleyes2

And so cloud saw his hometown burned, Cyan saw his hometown poisoned. Cloud saw Aeries die, Cyan saw his wife and daughter die. Cloud didnt know who he was, Cyan wanted to hand over his soul to demons out of self destructive guilt. Cloud was experimented on for four years. Tifa was experimented on her whole life. Brainwashed? Yep, FFVI had that angle too, and did it better. Family issues, oh yah. romance, how can you not be moved by the tale of locke and celes? Sorry, just cuz you cant play a game without CGI and FMV doesnt make FFVI story or characters inferior. From a writing perspective, its one of the most epic and touching stories put to pen in videogames. Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is. main characters, main villains, main story, history, resolution, conflict, side quests, pound for pound FFVI wipes the floor with FFVII. Name one thing FFVII did well, FFVI did it better. FFVII wasnt awful, but it was shallow. irony is it was probably Nomura's best game and the only time he did a halfway decent love triangle. and since its now 8 years and several games later, its really sorta sad that he hasnt managed to surppass himself.