First official AC reviews are in. Do you agree?

[?????]

Lemme guess, FFVII was the first RPG you ever played right? and you just cant play 16-bit cuz there isnt any FMV right? and your calling FFVI fans fanboys? whatever :rolleyes2

No. Knights of the Old Republic was the first RPG I ever played. I hold Chrono Trigger to be the greatest RPG in the field. I actually didn't play FFVII until this year.

Zolom was a simple snake, Espers were creatures that nearly destroyed the world themselves, and Kefka killed them all. ALL OF THEM. AT ONCE! and actually if you had played the game instead of reading the summary, it took your entire party to fight him.

I beat him easily with my first party. It doesn't take your entire party to fight him, unless your skill is deficient. Besides, several members of your party are completely worthless against the final few bosses anyway, like Umaro and Relm.

Kefka would look at sephs leather lovin fetish and laugh in that laugh we all know and love and wipe him off the face of the earth. Say what you will about the wacky clown getup, but you mean to tell me you can look at sephs tight leather and big sword fetish and not shudder?

Actually, I don't shudder. I'm quite aroused by it. If we're talking final form versus final form, the title easily goes to Sephiroth. If we're fighting regular versus regular...Sephiroth still takes it, because unlike Kefka, he's a competent physical fighter.

Me no swing dat way thank you very much. seph was as incompetent as the man who created him (talkin bout Nomura here) and yes he did do more than that, but his resume peaks at "stabbed church girl through the chest, did I mention I love leather?" Spehs a pretender chum, aint nothin fanboyish about it. He just failed to accomplish half the villainy Kefka did. And yah yah, if he summoned the meteor and abosorbed the powers... woulda, coulda, didnt. End of story. Kefka is what the joker from batman would be if you gave him godlike powers. Seph? what exactly did he do besides burn down a hick town, mind funk cloud, stab a church girl, hide in a crater and impale zolom? Sorry but he's lame. Overrated. Maybe its the leather and big sword that draws his fans. :rolleyes2

Snuck into one of the most heavily guarded buildings in the world and assassinated the leader of a multinational megacorporation, maybe? And you're trying to tell me that Shinra's heavier tech wouldn't easily slay Kefka. Their lighter tech would certainly fail against him, but I'd like to see him survive a shot from the Sister Ray. It's also true that Kefka committed near-genocide against the Espers.

And so cloud saw his hometown burned, Cyan saw his hometown poisoned. Cloud saw Aeries die, Cyan saw his wife and daughter die. Cloud didnt know who he was, Cyan wanted to hand over his soul to demons out of self destructive guilt. Cloud was experimented on for four years. Tifa was experimented on her whole life.

You mean Terra. Though that would be an interesting explanation for Tifa's knockers. While it is indeed true that Terra was experimented on for her entire life, the experimentation was not done by a mad scientist such as Hojo, but Cid. She was barely even brainwashed, considering that as soon as the Slave Crown is removed she not only abandons the Empire but in fact allies herself with the Returners. Cyan also didn't want to hand over anything.

Cloud's parents were also murdered; regardless of the fact that his memories were basically raped, he did come from Nibelhelm. Sephiroth also personally murdered the population of Nibelheim, and he was the man that Cloud looked up to. This was immediately followed by four years of torture at the hands of Hojo. I'm sure you also missed the fact that Cloud did just about the same thing for Sephiroth. By killing Aeris, Sephiroth is in a way responsible for genocide, though this admittedly lacks the magnitude of largely destroying the Espers.

Brainwashed? Yep, FFVI had that angle too, and did it better.

Hardly. Once the Slave Crown was removed, she left. Apparently the Empire needs to update its brainwashing techniques.

romance, how can you not be moved by the tale of locke and celes?

Mainly because it's cliched. Celes came off as a simple replacement for Rachel. If they'd just left it with the Phoenix Magicite, it would have been flawless.

Sorry, just cuz you cant play a game without CGI and FMV doesnt make FFVI story or characters inferior. From a writing perspective, its one of the most epic and touching stories put to pen in videogames.

Ah, the faux-arrogance and fanboyism again. The story's good, but it isn't flawless. FFVII's isn't flawless, either. But Nomura's style wins out in the end, because of the greater realism involved.

Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is.

And this isn't cliched?

main characters, main villains, main story, history, resolution, conflict, side quests, pound for pound FFVI wipes the floor with FFVII.

Once again, you're grievously in error, though I suppose it's to be expected. It's better in some areas, definitely. I will grant you that Kefka did accomplish more despicable acts than Sephiroth. This is all I will grant you.

[SoulTaker*]

Just keep proclaiming the guy with the John Wayne Gacy complex as the end all villian, Im sure someone will listen to you. Kefka doesnt even have is own good theme song, Sephiroth has the best villian theme song since the imperial march. I never said Zolom was supremely strong I just said that it is nearly impossible to beat him at the beginning of the game, and when you do after many tries you see it simply impaled on a tree, and the tight leather you refer to is a soldier's uniform not a clown costume, and I've beaten many 16 bit games, like most of Zelda's games, Castlevania and fire emblem games. I just couldnt get interested into VI, I dont know why it just got me bored.

BTW my first RPG was VIII, then IX, then VII, VIII is my favorite and then VII in a close second. My third favorite RPG(Grandia 3) of all time didnt have any FMV's so your argument is out the window. And what I said holds true not many people outside of FF fanboys/girls hold VI higher than VII in any regard, if they did they would have made a movie about VI instead of VII.

[?????]

VI does tend to drag in the second half; it utterly lacks direction. Those who complain about VII's linearity have something of a point, but in order to have a focused story, linearity is required to some degree.

Neither Kefka nor Sephiroth's main "I'm about to do something evil" theme was that good, but One-Winged Angel is a goddamned masterpiece, easily the best battle theme ever composed for a game. However, one must also acknowledge Dancing Mad; it is a truly great piece of music. The final boss themes for VI through VIII were all top-notch examples of composition and engineering.

Neither Kefka nor Sephiroth is the end-all-be-all villain, either. In my mind, that title is solely reserved for Anakin Skywalker.

[SoulTaker*]

Yes I agree, Anakin/Vader set the standard for villians forever, If you think about it Sephiroth is just like Anakin in some respects, former hero, momma's boy's, and supremely powerful, except the fact that Seph never turns good, and is never horribly scarred. The tragedy of Sephiroth is that he was human, he was a hero and many soldiers looked up to him, and his mom was a good person and not the planet killer he thought she was. His anger should have been directed at Shin Ra instead of at the planet and its people.

[?????]

Yeah, there are plenty of reasons to hate Shinra. I seriously doubt that Rufus will continue to pursue a planet-conscious agenda.

But the core problem isn't just Shinra; Sephiroth's nuttier than a jar of Planters.

As for the actual subject of the thread, which we haven't talked about for an entire page, the ratings may very well have been bought, at least to an extent. Some of them are going to be genuinely raving over the film. It isn't a towering spectacle of greatness in the larger sense, but for its intended audience, it approaches this designation. I suppose we'll find out when it's officially released over here what its true mettle is.

[Ishin Ookami]

I beat him easily with my first party. It doesn't take your entire party to fight him, unless your skill is deficient. Besides, several members of your party are completely worthless against the final few bosses anyway, like Umaro and Relm.

While Relm wasnt much use in the final battle, her sketch command can be very fun and useful. and Umaro was actually the guy who landed the killing blow on Kefka first time in, give him a green cherry and he just dominates.

Actually, I don't shudder. I'm quite aroused by it. If we're talking final form versus final form, the title easily goes to Sephiroth. If we're fighting regular versus regular...Sephiroth still takes it, because unlike Kefka, he's a competent physical fighter.

Snuck into one of the most heavily guarded buildings in the world and assassinated the leader of a multinational megacorporation, maybe? And you're trying to tell me that Shinra's heavier tech wouldn't easily slay Kefka. Their lighter tech would certainly fail against him, but I'd like to see him survive a shot from the Sister Ray. It's also true that Kefka committed near-genocide against the Espers.

physical ability doesnt mean a thing to a person who vaporizes mythical beasts with the wave of his pinky. Even the most well conditioned martial artist is no match for projectile weaponry. The weapons in FFVII had the power to destory, their in game descriptions matches the tone if not content of how the espers were described, yet what were major battles for your party, a party who at that point was already strong enough to take down seph and jenova, Kefka was laughed, and waved his hand. This was BEFORE becoming a god mind you. I dont have to imagine anything or breath anything into the story to know who was the more powerful. as for the whole advanced tech argument, the empire had advanced tech too mind you, and they got smacked down by the espers... who were effortless slaughtered by who again?






[QUOTE=?????] You mean Terra. Though that would be an interesting explanation for Tifa's knockers. While it is indeed true that Terra was experimented on for her entire life, the experimentation was not done by a mad scientist such as Hojo, but Cid. She was barely even brainwashed, considering that as soon as the Slave Crown is removed she not only abandons the Empire but in fact allies herself with the Returners.

Hardly. Once the Slave Crown was removed, she left. Apparently the Empire needs to update its brainwashing techniques.

Under that brainwashing how many people did she kill? We see her as a young adult slaughtering trained soldiers at kefka's whim, not cid's. Cid was responsible for creating Magitek warriors, it was implied that terra's upbringing was left to the emperor, kefka, and various operations she performed with the slave crown. One must wonder how many more died as kefka and the Emperor played with their human toy.

Cloud's parents were also murdered; regardless of the fact that his memories were basically raped, he did come from Nibelhelm. Sephiroth also personally murdered the population of Nibelheim, and he was the man that Cloud looked up to. This was immediately followed by four years of torture at the hands of Hojo. I'm sure you also missed the fact that Cloud did just about the same thing for Sephiroth. By killing Aeris, Sephiroth is in a way responsible for genocide, though this admittedly lacks the magnitude of largely destroying the Espers.

While clouds hometown getting smoked was tragic, I still feel it lacks the power of cyans debut. Cyan watched his people die before him. One by one. He saw his wife and daughter breathe their last breath while most of the deaths in nibelhelm occurred off camera. Cyan later saw his family again as their souls left for the land of the dead, further driving home the fact that he had failed to protect them and that he would never see them again.

Cyan also didn't want to hand over anything.

He literally came out and said it himself that he wanted to die, that he deserved to die. wrexsoul stated that cyans self loathing was what drew him and that this was what cyan wanted. Destruction for his failure.

[QUOTE=?????] Mainly because it's cliched. Celes came off as a simple replacement for Rachel. If they'd just left it with the Phoenix Magicite, it would have been flawless.

I disagree, It took a while for feelings to develop between them. Locke really first noticed celes at the opera house when she was all dolled up and even went so far as to play leading man to her leading lady once ultros buggered things up. Its true she did feel gratitude towards him for protecting her initially. But gratitude isnt romance, but can lead to it. Her chilly response to Edgar's assumption that she might have feelings for him shows where her thoughts were at the time. Celes also didnt so much love locke in the world of ruin, but didnt want to be alone. Hence her suicide attempt. After finding that eagle with lockes headband she realized others had survived and that she wasnt as alone as she thought. It wasnt until the end where it was implied that the subtle feelings developing between eachother would be consumated off camera, the way the ending Dramatis Personelle lists their names together, and how locke had found closure with rachael after having used the pheonix magicite and forgiven himself and the somewhat tender moment after he saves her from falling. Like I said, subtle, but touching. Locke's learning to love again, and Celes being torn down from independant soldier to someone who sincerely couldnt stand to be alone complimented eachother, and built very slowly.

Ah, the faux-arrogance and fanboyism again. The story's good, but it isn't flawless. FFVII's isn't flawless, either. But Nomura's style wins out in the end, because of the greater realism involved.

Again, disagree. FFVII did have its moments, I liked yuffie and vincent. RedXIII and CId, but the rest of the main cast had just been done before. like I keep saying, the idea of terra wanting to know love and finding it not in romance but in something more basic and central to her character was very fitting. Cyans tale of self destructive guilt and anger was also very poignant. Even Setzer, the gambler had a few good moments and his backstory had a very likeable sense of irony, furthered by the hints that the mimic you find on triangle island could very well be Daryl. Edgar and Sabin's backstory was amusing, espescially when you find that Edgar cheated Sabin out of the kingdom, yet became quite the responsible king. Gau's backstory while sweet, touching, and brief also allowed for Terra and Celes to get in some rare and much needed comedic moments, or is the humor of the poster girls of angst and depression in full girlish shopping mode and ready to tear any man who mocks their shopping spree apart lost on you? And the opera scene itself I consider glorious. Perhaps it's just my fascination with the old school opera, but the oil painiting feel and music was nothing less than perfect in setting a mood. Even shadow, managed to get in some actual character development whereas his oppisite number in FFVII, vincent, remains very much the same as he's always been for the past eight years. FFVI is the better story hands down. Its twists are more clever, its characters are more complicated, its villains more loathsome and its plot progression more unpredictable. Also as a game it had more depth, more replay value, harder bosses and more interesting side quests.

as for FFVII's realism, I guess its all in what you look for in your fictional characters. Cloud is full of pseudo angst and half hearted resolution. He's someone who would probably own every creed record ever madeand he had a more humble beginning, where characters like Cyan, Relm, Edgar, Terra, Locke, and most of the cast of FFVI are cut from the heroic model.. I can see a certain audiance being drawn to him rather then the more old school heroic modelled characters of FFVI.
But part of the appeal of FFVI's cast is despite their pedigree as far as regular characters go, they struggled against some seriously awful issues and saw the end of the world and lived through hell on earth, and embodied the concept of hope and dreams and rebuilding from tradgedy while cloud and co. simply went through the motions of similar drama.

Instead of cliche romance on the part of terra, we got her learning to love and relate to orphans, and realize how precious life is.


And this isn't cliched?

It could have been, but it was handled effectively. Would you rather her fall hopelessly in love with one of the main characters(note, since when has this NOT happened in a Nomura title)? or have her forge an emotional attatchment with those who have had their families taken away from them just like she did, and protect them in a way that she never was? the former is cliche, the latter actually has some emotional resonnance and leads to some creative character development.

As for the actual subject of the thread, which we haven't talked about for an entire page, the ratings may very well have been bought, at least to an extent. Some of them are going to be genuinely raving over the film. It isn't a towering spectacle of greatness in the larger sense, but for its intended audience, it approaches this designation. I suppose we'll find out when it's officially released over here what its true mettle is.

Agreed, and thats what bloody well galls me, the plot of a movie is whack yet its given 95%? This isnt a video game where we play to have fun, Ive overlooked weak or lacking plots for the sake of good gameplay. But in a movie, if the plot sucks then the movie sucks, I dont care how cool the action is. Then PSXUK says the story is "SPECTACULAR". Like hell I know sephiroth fangirls who spit on the plot of AC but watch it just to ogle Bishonen. and considering that EGM is releasing a new 100 best games of all time in next weeks release, I fully expect to see FFVI lose its spot as the top ranked FF title (it got ranked #6 five years ago) and also see FFIX lose its spot as the top ranked 32-bit title and see FFVII all over the place considering how since they got restaffed they've been kissing FFVII's ass.

[?????]

While Relm wasnt much use in the final battle, her sketch command can be very fun and useful. and Umaro was actually the guy who landed the killing blow on Kefka first time in, give him a green cherry and he just dominates.

Oh, she was fun. I'm still not much of a fan of Umaro, though.

physical ability doesnt mean a thing to a person who vaporizes mythical beasts with the wave of his pinky. Even the most well conditioned martial artist is no match for projectile weaponry. The weapons in FFVII had the power to destory, their in game descriptions matches the tone if not content of how the espers were described, yet what were major battles for your party, a party who at that point was already strong enough to take down seph and jenova, Kefka was laughed, and waved his hand. This was BEFORE becoming a god mind you. I dont have to imagine anything or breath anything into the story to know who was the more powerful. as for the whole advanced tech argument, the empire had advanced tech too mind you, and they got smacked down by the espers... who were effortless slaughtered by who again?

Physical ability still does mean quite a bit. Energy is energy, no matter what form it's delivered to a target in. Whether a kilojoule of energy is directed against a target in the form of a fireball or a hammer swing, it's going to have roughly the same effect, except if a person is more vulnerable to one type of damage than the other. Kefka is not that adept physically. He also hardly vaporized them with "a wave of his pinky"; Kefka did expend effort to destroy the Espers. Not that offing them wasn't a mighty accomplishment or anything, but he didn't do it that easily. As for the technology, the Empire's machines are hardly comparable to Shinra's.

The weapons in VII were also far more powerful than Espers, considering that at the stage of Kefka's development where he beats them, a comparatively low-level party can defeat him, and none of VI's party members display anywhere near the level of physical strength that Cloud does, and judging by that, they also lack the magical prowess of Aeris or Red XIII. Kefka's certainly a formidable force after he's stolen the power of the statues, but he doesn't compare to Sephiroth's god-form.

Under that brainwashing how many people did she kill? We see her as a young adult slaughtering trained soldiers at kefka's whim, not cid's. Cid was responsible for creating Magitek warriors, it was implied that terra's upbringing was left to the emperor, kefka, and various operations she performed with the slave crown. One must wonder how many more died as kefka and the Emperor played with their human toy.

Probably a lot of people died. It's quite tragic, but she was not tortured. Torture trumps everything.

While clouds hometown getting smoked was tragic, I still feel it lacks the power of cyans debut. Cyan watched his people die before him. One by one. He saw his wife and daughter breathe their last breath while most of the deaths in nibelhelm occurred off camera. Cyan later saw his family again as their souls left for the land of the dead, further driving home the fact that he had failed to protect them and that he would never see them again.

I won't deny that it ached to see Cyan's family getting on the Phantom Train. Cyan was actually there to watch his family die; this is roughly equaled by the fact that Sephiroth was Cloud's hero. Seeing what happened to Cloud would be like if George Lucas took a hacksaw and murdered my entire family.

He literally came out and said it himself that he wanted to die, that he deserved to die. wrexsoul stated that cyans self loathing was what drew him and that this was what cyan wanted. Destruction for his failure.

I forgot why that was relevant, honestly.

I disagree, It took a while for feelings to develop between them. Locke really first noticed celes at the opera house when she was all dolled up and even went so far as to play leading man to her leading lady once ultros buggered things up. Its true she did feel gratitude towards him for protecting her initially. But gratitude isnt romance, but can lead to it. Her chilly response to Edgar's assumption that she might have feelings for him shows where her thoughts were at the time. Celes also didnt so much love locke in the world of ruin, but didnt want to be alone. Hence her suicide attempt. After finding that eagle with lockes headband she realized others had survived and that she wasnt as alone as she thought. It wasnt until the end where it was implied that the subtle feelings developing between eachother would be consumated off camera, the way the ending Dramatis Personelle lists their names together, and how locke had found closure with rachael after having used the pheonix magicite and forgiven himself and the somewhat tender moment after he saves her from falling. Like I said, subtle, but touching. Locke's learning to love again, and Celes being torn down from independant soldier to someone who sincerely couldnt stand to be alone complimented eachother, and built very slowly.

I'd like Celes, too. She's a cutie pie. She'd probably kick my ass, but I'd hit on her. But their romance does seem a bit contrived. Given Cloud's history, the love triangle he deals with is not only a realistic expectation, but vital to his development.

Again, disagree. FFVII did have its moments, I liked yuffie and vincent. RedXIII and CId, but the rest of the main cast had just been done before. like I keep saying, the idea of terra wanting to know love and finding it not in romance but in something more basic and central to her character was very fitting. Cyans tale of self destructive guilt and anger was also very poignant.

Most casts of most stories have been done before, to an extent. Every hero has problems. Cloud's history easily surpasses many in terms of the associated degree of mental agony, but Barret, despite being a gun-toting badass, is just as conscientious as Cyan; he wouldn't be fighting Shinra if he wasn't. He's hardly just a clone of Mr. T, though he has the bling for it. Barret's town was also razed in Shinra's destructive pursuit of power. He lost his best friend in that incident, only to have to lose him to suicide all over again years later.

Even Setzer, the gambler had a few good moments and his backstory had a very likeable sense of irony, furthered by the hints that the mimic you find on triangle island could very well be Daryl. Edgar and Sabin's backstory was amusing, espescially when you find that Edgar cheated Sabin out of the kingdom, yet became quite the responsible king. Gau's backstory while sweet, touching, and brief also allowed for Terra and Celes to get in some rare and much needed comedic moments, or is the humor of the poster girls of angst and depression in full girlish shopping mode and ready to tear any man who mocks their shopping spree apart lost on you? And the opera scene itself I consider glorious. Perhaps it's just my fascination with the old school opera, but the oil painiting feel and music was nothing less than perfect in setting a mood. Even shadow, managed to get in some actual character development whereas his oppisite number in FFVII, vincent, remains very much the same as he's always been for the past eight years. FFVI is the better story hands down. Its twists are more clever, its characters are more complicated, its villains more loathsome and its plot progression more unpredictable. Also as a game it had more depth, more replay value, harder bosses and more interesting side quests.

Never said they weren't generally good characters. But I'd venture that Cloud is easily more complicated than the lot of them combined. He's hardly filled with "pseudo-angst"; he has very real and very large issues. He isn't Squall, either; he cares about other people without having a gun at his head. However, his story was not fully resolved in FFVII; hence, Advent Children. I'd also hardly say VI's twists were more clever; finding out you were being manipulated never goes over well with a character, but it's hard to see the sheer scale of Cloud's manipulation coming. The twists in most Final Fantasy games can be foreseen to a degree; they have to have an evil plot to foil, they have to have a catastrophe, and they have to have some kind of identity crisis. It was fairly hard not to see that something bad was going to happen to Aeris after she left the party, but she's a lovable and honorable character, so much that people actually refused to believe she had died and spent years trying to resurrect her. None of VI's characters engendered that kind of attachment, not even General Leo.

where characters like Cyan, Relm, Edgar, Terra, Locke, and most of the cast of FFVI are cut from the heroic model.. I can see a certain audiance being drawn to him rather then the more old school heroic modelled characters of FFVI.

VI's characters are indeed more old-school than VII's cast, but it's hard to argue that Cloud isn't a hero after what he manages to do. It's also possible that this phenomenon occurs simply because VI's environment is more old-school than VII's sci-fi dystopia.

But part of the appeal of FFVI's cast is despite their pedigree as far as regular characters go, they struggled against some seriously awful issues and saw the end of the world and lived through hell on earth, and embodied the concept of hope and dreams and rebuilding from tradgedy while cloud and co. simply went through the motions of similar drama.

I'm not sure how it's possible to "go through the motions" of a quest to save the world. The end of the world does come after a fashion in the end of VII, as well.

It could have been, but it was handled effectively. Would you rather her fall hopelessly in love with one of the main characters(note, since when has this NOT happened in a Nomura title)? or have her forge an emotional attatchment with those who have had their families taken away from them just like she did, and protect them in a way that she never was? the former is cliche, the latter actually has some emotional resonnance and leads to some creative character development.

I don't mind love stories, but Terra was handled well with regards to her character. I still think she deserves a d00d, though. Or a chick, if she swings that way. Or maybe both. Green-haired girls are hot.

Agreed, and thats what bloody well galls me, the plot of a movie is whack yet its given 95%? This isnt a video game where we play to have fun, Ive overlooked weak or lacking plots for the sake of good gameplay. But in a movie, if the plot sucks then the movie sucks, I dont care how cool the action is. Then PSXUK says the story is "SPECTACULAR". Like hell I know sephiroth fangirls who spit on the plot of AC but watch it just to ogle Bishonen. and considering that EGM is releasing a new 100 best games of all time in next weeks release, I fully expect to see FFVI lose its spot as the top ranked FF title (it got ranked #6 five years ago) and also see FFIX lose its spot as the top ranked 32-bit title and see FFVII all over the place considering how since they got restaffed they've been kissing FFVII's ass.

If the magazine was downplaying VII, it can expect to receive a backlash due to the game's massive fanbase. Some of them will have better reasons than others for it. I can certainly understand if someone chooses to rank VI or IX above VII. They're both excellent games. However, if it's done merely to spite the most popular entry, it doesn't fly either logically or with the fanbase. The purpose of the magazine is to sell subscriptions. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know what specifically they were doing, since I don't read EGM regularly.

[SoulTaker*]

Badass!


Look at this cake. Tell him he'd be more threatening without the makeup.

[Ishin Ookami]

Physical ability still does mean quite a bit. Energy is energy, no matter what form it's delivered to a target in. Whether a kilojoule of energy is directed against a target in the form of a fireball or a hammer swing, it's going to have roughly the same effect, except if a person is more vulnerable to one type of damage than the other. Kefka is not that adept physically. He also hardly vaporized them with "a wave of his pinky"; Kefka did expend effort to destroy the Espers. Not that offing them wasn't a mighty accomplishment or anything, but he didn't do it that easily. As for the technology, the Empire's machines are hardly comparable to Shinra's.

The weapons in VII were also far more powerful than Espers, considering that at the stage of Kefka's development where he beats them, a comparatively low-level party can defeat him, and none of VI's party members display anywhere near the level of physical strength that Cloud does, and judging by that, they also lack the magical prowess of Aeris or Red XIII. Kefka's certainly a formidable force after he's stolen the power of the statues, but he doesn't compare to Sephiroth's god-form.

The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

Probably a lot of people died. It's quite tragic, but she was not tortured. Torture trumps everything.

Not quite, cloud had a childhood. He had a family. He grew up, knew what it was to reach adulthood. Choose his own path. Terra could do none of those things. She only knew how to be a weapon, she was a moral, and emotional blank slate who only knew how to kill. Emotional Demons from within are always more formidable than outer threats, in one episode of Star Trek TNG Gowron says to piccard "have you ever tried to fight an idea? It has no body to kill". Terra had emotional demons running around inside her, and nothing to hold onto to give her comfort. regaining her memories only made her more conflicted and scared, she was a hybrid of two races who hated eachother, and knew that she may face danger from either species because of her uniqueness. Clouds "Torture" ended up making him stronger (a really contrived plot point Ive always felt) and more capable of fighting back. As far as evil genious go, Ive always felt hojo had more evil and less genious in him. If your gonna create a frankenstein you nitwit, have a way to kill it when it gets out of control. Terra had to muddle through her personnal demons with no outside help and make her own choices in the dark, with little to no help from anyone which makes her more sympathetic in my eyes.

Most casts of most stories have been done before, to an extent. Every hero has problems. Cloud's history easily surpasses many in terms of the associated degree of mental agony,

Disagree, cloud couldnt even recall the torture until that one sidequest, and by then he had already made peace with his past thus negating any possible negative consequences the memory of that torture and experimentation might have had. and not knowing who he was, being mindfunked, seeing his friend Aeries die (wanna talk replacements? cloud couldnt even replace Zach in Aeries eyes, it was always obvious. She just went on that date to remind herself of him so yah, while he may have had it pretty bad for her, it was obvious where her heart was), sure its unpleasent but as ive already stated, FFVI had some more meatier angst for its players to chew on.

I forgot why that was relevant, honestly.

You stated cyan did not hand over his soul to wrexsoul, and I was letting you know he did indeed choose oblivion rather than live in agony until his family intervened.

Never said they weren't generally good characters. But I'd venture that Cloud is easily more complicated than the lot of them combined. He's hardly filled with "pseudo-angst"; he has very real and very large issues. He isn't Squall, either; he cares about other people without having a gun at his head. However, his story was not fully resolved in FFVII; hence, Advent Children. I'd also hardly say VI's twists were more clever; finding out you were being manipulated never goes over well with a character, but it's hard to see the sheer scale of Cloud's manipulation coming. The twists in most Final Fantasy games can be foreseen to a degree; they have to have an evil plot to foil, they have to have a catastrophe, and they have to have some kind of identity crisis. It was fairly hard not to see that something bad was going to happen to Aeris after she left the party, but she's a lovable and honorable character, so much that people actually refused to believe she had died and spent years trying to resurrect her. None of VI's characters engendered that kind of attachment, not even General Leo.

VI's characters are indeed more old-school than VII's cast, but it's hard to argue that Cloud isn't a hero after what he manages to do. It's also possible that this phenomenon occurs simply because VI's environment is more old-school than VII's sci-fi dystopia.

first of all... DOOD! the friggin world ended. Millions died. Hope was something that had to be fostered and held onto, made manifest by hardwork, blood, and tears. and your calling midgar a dystopia?

As for cloud being more complicated Disagree heavily.
In comparison, cloud just never felt real. When I say going through the motions, think of harrison ford's performance in Return of the Jedi. Yah he was supposed to play reformed, not dopey. and what was up with the spare tire harrison? that carbonite was supposed to keep you perfectly preserved. He read the lines, and gave appropriate facial expressions, but there was no emotional resonnance with his performance. Ditto with cloud. all his power comes from accidents, geneticly experimented on, thrown into the lifestream, guarded from beyond by Aeries. His issues were that he was weak as a child, yet all his misfortunes take care of that for him instead of him actually working for what he has. He lost his family, betrayed by someone he respected, but this is all so common in RPG's. Barrett had the same misfortune, yet he actually cared and stuck it through, working to make the world a better place instead of pretending he was something he wasnt. Clouds story just feels like a set of coincidances instead of a genuine struggle. Even his major breakthrough was a case of tifa holding his hand and guiding him through. I also felt that cloud should not have been so powerful after accepting his weaknesses, he should should have had to face his follies and idiocy on his own and work it through in time, instead of being superpowerful because of genetic experimentation and lifestream. Sure his friends could cheer him on, but he needed to face the consequences of his decisions, overcome his disassociative and cowardly nature on his own but never did. in comparison the resonnance I find in Sakaguchi's direction is that all characters have to confront their demons on their own and accept the consequences. Cyan had to accept that his family still loved him, that he was worthy to protect the happiness of those still alive, and maybe even love another. It took coaching from his family and friends, where cloud required handholding and copouts, and Cyan eventually pulled through, wheras Cloud was practically spoon fed his breaks while he just carried a big sword and grew more and more powerful through the power of plot contrivance rather than skilled direction and writing.

I don't mind love stories, but Terra was handled well with regards to her character. I still think she deserves a d00d, though. Or a chick, if she swings that way. Or maybe both. Green-haired girls are hot.

I was quite happy with terra learning to love and forge emotional attatchments and to protect what was precious to her, almost at the cost of her own life. It was less stereotypical that way. As for her ending up with someone, I would have liked to see some signs of her and Edgar getting closer in the same ways the plot showed Locke and Celes edging together but not getting together just yet. Despite his playboy ways, he really was a good king and would have been good for her as he proved he was capable of being responsible and looking out for the needs of others, and she would have benifitted by that example. Also her half esper nature would garuntee he would end his playboy ways, lest face getting his ass kicked.

And as for the funnyboy



I much prefer this one, nowhere near amano's original concept art, which Is pretty hard to find right now, but still does an alright job of conveying his insanity.



This being one of the rare amano sketches I could find, not exactly kefka at his best, but still more villainous than
....


THIS!



okay seph, give me pouty, thats right bat those eyes. Can we get makeup in here, his mascera's running.

[Christmas]

The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

.

FF VI EMPIRE PRIZED POSSESSION





The above are mostly the core of the Empire Forces. Mainly mechanical and natural organics units.



Here are some which can be defined as artificial organic lifeforms. They sure doesn't look very PERFECTED to me.

FF VII SOME SHINRA ARTIFICIAL ORGANIC LIFEFORM




Here is some artificial lifeform that Hojo produce during your fight with him. In FF VII, They can create artificial organic lifeform too.

[?????]

The empire had mecha, aircraft, cannons, and had perfected creating artificial life forms where the technology in FFVII had not yet gotten to the point where they could literally create a organic creature. This should show that despite the old school design, the empire did indeed have superior tech, and kefka wiped out the Espers who laid seige to the Empire's crib and threatened to wipe out the world. Thus proving that yep, he could indeed take on the forces of shinra, who did not have as advanced tech and wipe the floor with mere mortal sephiroth. And he was a match for the forces threatening the world BEFORE godhood. whereas seph, though indeed powerful, needed additional help from meteor before he could do the whole global armegeddon thing.

The Empire did indeed have mecha, cannons, and aircraft, but they were all quite primitive, as is evidenced by the amateurish design of the Magitek walkers; they're similar to the Imperial/Republic AT-RT in that the pilot is exposed to enemy fire, melee attacks, and in Final Fantasy's case, magic spells such as Fire. Not the best way to design combat drones. Shinra's mecha would literally walk all over the Empire's without having to fire a single shot. Their cannons were also primitive when compared to the heavy machine guns and pulse lasers used by Shinra, and their air fleet was highly limited, when compared to Shinra's bevy of tank drones, massive mecha, more powerful directed energy weapons, helicopters, planes, jeeps, and other similar vehicles. The technology in VI also did not have the ability to actually genetically engineer lifeforms, only to pervert existing ones. Thus far, only Shinra has been demonstrated to have this capability, and they're far closer to perfecting it; their creatures are capable of heavy-weapons grade attacks.

A friendly tip on assessing technological advancement: for a more accurate result, you must consider not just the different types of technology present, but also the actual energy usage of the two (or more) organizations you're comparing. The Sister Ray alone dwarfed the power usage of anything in the Empire; this doesn't even get into the postmodern amenities widely available. A fitting example would be Romulan cloaking technology versus a Star Destroyer. The Romulans' cloak does more for them than the Empire's Phantom TIEs, but the Star Destroyer's sheer shield and weapon power will more than offset this; even though the Romulans can move around freely, they're unable to damage the Star Destroyer, and thus the Imperials will eventually win when one of them gets a lucky shot at the distortions.

Not quite, cloud had a childhood. He had a family. He grew up, knew what it was to reach adulthood. Choose his own path. Terra could do none of those things. She only knew how to be a weapon, she was a moral, and emotional blank slate who only knew how to kill. Emotional Demons from within are always more formidable than outer threats, in one episode of Star Trek TNG Gowron says to piccard "have you ever tried to fight an idea? It has no body to kill". Terra had emotional demons running around inside her, and nothing to hold onto to give her comfort. regaining her memories only made her more conflicted and scared, she was a hybrid of two races who hated eachother, and knew that she may face danger from either species because of her uniqueness. Clouds "Torture" ended up making him stronger (a really contrived plot point Ive always felt) and more capable of fighting back. As far as evil genious go, Ive always felt hojo had more evil and less genious in him. If your gonna create a frankenstein you nitwit, have a way to kill it when it gets out of control. Terra had to muddle through her personnal demons with no outside help and make her own choices in the dark, with little to no help from anyone which makes her more sympathetic in my eyes.

I wouldn't say Terra had no outside help, just like I wouldn't say that Cloud did it all himself. Nobody ever does when it comes to emotions. Cloud's torturous ordeal did end with his physical strength being substantially higher due to the nature of the experiments to which he was subjected, but his mind was absolutely broken. He never would have pulled out of it if not for the people who cared about him, even given his extreme constitution.

Disagree, cloud couldnt even recall the torture until that one sidequest, and by then he had already made peace with his past thus negating any possible negative consequences the memory of that torture and experimentation might have had. and not knowing who he was, being mindfunked, seeing his friend Aeries die (wanna talk replacements? cloud couldnt even replace Zach in Aeries eyes, it was always obvious. She just went on that date to remind herself of him so yah, while he may have had it pretty bad for her, it was obvious where her heart was), sure its unpleasent but as ive already stated, FFVI had some more meatier angst for its players to chew on.

I'm pretty sure he recalled his torture before that; he does say to them that he was experimented on by Hojo, with the Shinra Mansion scene merely detailing the specifics, and even if he didn't, peace isn't a one-time thing. It's a daily struggle. The difference between Locke trying to replace someone and Aeris is that Cloud bears more than a passing resemblance to Zack; part of Zack's personality has been embedded inside him, he carried Zack's sword, and the black-haired SOLDIER was the closest thing he had to a friend.

You stated cyan did not hand over his soul to wrexsoul, and I was letting you know he did indeed choose oblivion rather than live in agony until his family intervened.

Ah, yes. It's understandable that he'd want to die, but I don't think that's what he had in mind.

first of all... DOOD! the friggin world ended. Millions died. Hope was something that had to be fostered and held onto, made manifest by hardwork, blood, and tears. and your calling midgar a dystopia?

Midgar is a dystopia. So is the world under Kefka. The thing is, the world in FFVII only "ends," as you describe it, offscreen for the most part, whereas it happens onscreen in FFVI. The cataclysm in VII is more of a day-to-day thing, a slow process of having the life choked out of the human race, rather than one massive event. That's how most horrible occurrences happen in real life, actually; the extreme cases, like 9/11, Pearl Harbor, the JFK assassination, and others are the exception rather than the rule.

As for cloud being more complicated Disagree heavily. In comparison, cloud just never felt real.

Part of Cloud wasn't real, so in a certain way your sentiments are dead-on.

When I say going through the motions, think of harrison ford's performance in Return of the Jedi. Yah he was supposed to play reformed, not dopey. and what was up with the spare tire harrison? that carbonite was supposed to keep you perfectly preserved. He read the lines, and gave appropriate facial expressions, but there was no emotional resonnance with his performance.

Han Solo wasn't the main character in Jedi; Luke was.

Ditto with cloud. all his power comes from accidents, geneticly experimented on, thrown into the lifestream, guarded from beyond by Aeries. His issues were that he was weak as a child, yet all his misfortunes take care of that for him instead of him actually working for what he has. He lost his family, betrayed by someone he respected, but this is all so common in RPG's. Barrett had the same misfortune, yet he actually cared and stuck it through, working to make the world a better place instead of pretending he was something he wasnt.

I found that Cloud was generally a likable guy; he stuck his neck out more than once when an injustice was being committed. As for Barret, he wasn't captured by Shinra. He fought against them, but once Cloud got out of the pen, that's what he ended up doing almost immediately; even Barret admits that Cloud is an admirable leader and a key addition to the cause of saving the world.

Clouds story just feels like a set of coincidances instead of a genuine struggle. Even his major breakthrough was a case of tifa holding his hand and guiding him through. I also felt that cloud should not have been so powerful after accepting his weaknesses, he should should have had to face his follies and idiocy on his own and work it through in time, instead of being superpowerful because of genetic experimentation and lifestream.

Part of Cloud's strength is his own. He already had immense drive and strength even before he was subjected to the horrors of Shinra; if not for this, he never would have acquired his strength.

Sure his friends could cheer him on, but he needed to face the consequences of his decisions, overcome his disassociative and cowardly nature on his own but never did. in comparison the resonnance I find in Sakaguchi's direction is that all characters have to confront their demons on their own and accept the consequences. Cyan had to accept that his family still loved him, that he was worthy to protect the happiness of those still alive, and maybe even love another. It took coaching from his family and friends, where cloud required handholding and copouts, and Cyan eventually pulled through, wheras Cloud was practically spoon fed his breaks while he just carried a big sword and grew more and more powerful through the power of plot contrivance rather than skilled direction and writing.

Well, if you want to get technical, Cloud grew more and more powerful via leveling up. And again, Cyan wasn't tortured and experimented on for four years straight. I know I sound like a broken record continually bringing that up, but its magnitude is hefty enough that it cannot be ignored. For my senior paper, I interviewed veterans of Vietnam and World War II and heard firsthand the terror of war. I've known people who've been tortured; I've known people who habitually torture themselves.

I was quite happy with terra learning to love and forge emotional attatchments and to protect what was precious to her, almost at the cost of her own life. It was less stereotypical that way. As for her ending up with someone, I would have liked to see some signs of her and Edgar getting closer in the same ways the plot showed Locke and Celes edging together but not getting together just yet. Despite his playboy ways, he really was a good king and would have been good for her as he proved he was capable of being responsible and looking out for the needs of others, and she would have benifitted by that example. Also her half esper nature would garuntee he would end his playboy ways, lest face getting his ass kicked.

Heh, I'll agree with you there. Edgar was NOT the Force's gift to women, but he was a good king. It'd be funny to watch him suck an Ultima after Terra catches him in bed with Celes.

And as for the funnyboy



I much prefer this one, nowhere near amano's original concept art, which Is pretty hard to find right now, but still does an alright job of conveying his insanity.



This being one of the rare amano sketches I could find, not exactly kefka at his best, but still more villainous than
....


THIS!

okay seph, give me pouty, thats right bat those eyes. Can we get makeup in here, his mascera's running.

How many of those Amano sketches are there? His site doesn't have his FF work at the moment. I have his illustrations of Zidane, Terra, Cloud, Sephiroth, Aeris, and Red XIII.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Hey, isn't that about AC and not FFVI VS FFVII?

I feel this has gone off topic =/

[Christmas]

It is used to be Wuxia,CHI verus AC though.

[Shoden]

all we need is Squall of SeeD and you'd have every in and out of the games and the movie!

Advent Children was great, nothing amazing, it lacked story but the action was good, it just didn't have the thing that makes you go "OMG HOLY [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] THAT WAS AMAZING AS HELL!"

[Death Penalty]

Ishin why are you hating on this game and movie.
Being that Im an american asshole I love action. Movies dun need a plot to woo me. Kefka doesnt even compare to Kefka in the fact that one dont look like a retarted clown who likes to crossdress occasionally.
Cloud doesnt even look like a girl..

IN SHORT DUN HATE ON A GAME BETTER THAN 6!
NUFF SAID