Da Vinci code

[Zante]

Hm, you do have a point. But then if it all is only a matter of opinion, why discuss it at all?

An example to what I was triing to say. Take the Mona Lisa. I personaly see nothing special about the paitning and I believe any decent painter could paint it. But people all round the word price it as a masterpiece, so im not going to disagree. Same with movies. If a lot of people are seeing them, it means that the creators did something right imho.

[yuno]

but for a book to be a best-seller,shouldnt it be regarded by the majority as "good"?that's what statistics are for.the general rating of the book becomes the facts,since everyone may have different opinions.whether the book is good or not,the people base on statistical facts.it's like tv ratings.shows are "great" and use statistical facts to back that statement up.

[Lychon]

but for a book to be a best-seller,shouldnt it be regarded by the majority as "good"?that's what statistics are for.the general rating of the book becomes the facts,since everyone may have different opinions.whether the book is good or not,the people base on statistical facts.it's like tv ratings.shows are "great" and use statistical facts to back that statement up.

I don't agree and here is why. Take for example the book in question here. The Da Vinci Code is one of the biggest sellers of all-time, but the "majority," as you put it, regard it as BAD. Just look at the posts regarding the book on the first page of this thread. Most people HATE it and think it is written poorly.

If you state that something is definitely good or bad, then anyone who has an opposite opinion is wrong, and should not have that opinion. You can't have something that is factually good or bad, but also have an opinion on it. Since good and bad are opinions in of themselves, ANY reference to good or bad as descriptors of a subject is an opinion, no matter what the subject or how well it is recieved.

The Mona Lisa is the most popular painting in the world due to FACTS revolving around the life of Leonardo Da Vinci. The definition of a masterpiece is "an outstanding piece of work or art." Since the Mona Lisa is the most "out - standing" of all of Leonardo's art, it is safe to say that the painting is a masterpiece without that statement being an opinion. Ask yourself, when you think of Leonardo's art, what is the first painting that comes to mind? It is the Mona Lisa that outstands the most.

[Raistlin]

Lychon: EoFF is hardly a definitive representation of the US or the world or whatever geographical area.

The Da Vinci code did sell really well and a lot of people like it. Debating about whether it's "good" or "bad" is pointless. But, if I had to go purely by quantity, I would have to say that The Da Vinci Code was a good book.

[yuno]

EoFF is hardly a definitive representation of the US or the world or whatever geographical area.

amen...

i think i will still take my outlook from worldwide statistical fact.the opinion factor is actually the reason why statistics was born.since everyone has a different opinion,a generally accepted value of how good a book/movie is can only be taken from statistics.even in the internet,you will see how this works.in youtube,for example,the videos are rated from 1 to 5.those videos that have high ratings (ie 4.5 to 5) are generally accepted as good.this also works on song countdowns.those that make it to the top of the charts are the ones that are generally accepted as good.yes,some may not like those books/movies/songs,but their rating tells us that the general public considers them good.

[Lychon]

amen...

i think i will still take my outlook from worldwide statistical fact.the opinion factor is actually the reason why statistics was born.since everyone has a different opinion,a generally accepted value of how good a book/movie is can only be taken from statistics.even in the internet,you will see how this works.in youtube,for example,the videos are rated from 1 to 5.those videos that have high ratings (ie 4.5 to 5) are generally accepted as good.this also works on song countdowns.those that make it to the top of the charts are the ones that are generally accepted as good.yes,some may not like those books/movies/songs,but their rating tells us that the general public considers them good.

No, statistics do not show how good or bad something is, they show what most people THOUGHT of it. And many times, an extremely successful book or movie has a very NEGATIVE general opinion. This would contradict your logic that the general opinion reflects a definite goodness or badness of a subject. The ratings do not tell whether something is good or badl it tells you what the majority of the people involved in those ratings THOUGHT of the subject in question.

And regarding the Da Vinci Code, most people on television who have spoken of it ABHOR the book, as well as a majority of internet posts. I was merely referring to the closest thing at hand, which was this thread, so I could bring the idea back on topic.

ANyways, I think we've heard about this argument ad nauseam, but I still don't see any truth or logic in what you're saying.

[krissy]

i put it away after chapter 3 rolled around

which really was in the first two pages, wasn't it. guess i didn't really give it a chance to pick up.

[yuno]

No, statistics do not show how good or bad something is, they show what most people THOUGHT of it. And many times, an extremely successful book or movie has a very NEGATIVE general opinion. This would contradict your logic that the general opinion reflects a definite goodness or badness of a subject. The ratings do not tell whether something is good or badl it tells you what the majority of the people involved in those ratings THOUGHT of the subject in question.

but then,where should we get the general concept of a good or bad book/movie other than statistics?as said,people do have different opinions,but the general opinion would have to say something about how good that book/movie is.and i didnt say that it is a definite goodness and that surely everyone will find it good.not everyone may like that book/movie,but the statistical facts would still speak out and say that "this book/movie is generally hailed as good," so in the general concept of what is "good",the book/movie is actually "good".

also,i havent heard of a best-seller/box-office hit that has a negative GENERAL opinion.would you please cite some examples?please and thank you.

[Lychon]

but then,where should we get the general concept of a good or bad book/movie other than statistics?as said,people do have different opinions,but the general opinion would have to say something about how good that book/movie is.and i didnt say that it is a definite goodness and that surely everyone will find it good.not everyone may like that book/movie,but the statistical facts would still speak out and say that "this book/movie is generally hailed as good," so in the general concept of what is "good",the book/movie is actually "good".

also,i havent heard of a best-seller/box-office hit that has a negative GENERAL opinion.would you please cite some examples?please and thank you.

Now you're just backpedaling. Your original standpoint was the defense that if something is successful, as in a book or movie, it is definitely good or bad. Since this has been disproven by me, you are now changing your story to say that statistics give a general impression of the subject based on the majority opinion.

Also, I have already cited numerous examples of best-sellers and box office hits that have GENERAL NEGATIVE perceptions. Da Vinci Code has a general negative perception. Wild Wild West was a huge hit and has a GENERAL NEGATIVE PERCEPTION. MEN IN BLACK II had a big box-office record and has a GENERAL NEGATIVE PERCEPTION. WOuld you like me to keep going? Or maybe you can do some research for yourself and find out that there are hundreds of movies and books in this category; "please, and thank you."

People don't know if something is good or bad in their eyes until they see it. I don't go and see popular movies because they are GOOD, but because they are POPULAR, and THEN I decide for myself whether they are good or bad. A film's statistics and ratings tell you that what the majority of people thought about that film. It does not mean there is a DEFINITE GOODNESS about a film or book if the majority approve of it, as was your original notion which you are now attempting to hide.

Have a nice day.

[yuno]

Now you're just backpedaling. Your original standpoint was the defense that if something is successful, as in a book or movie, it is definitely good or bad. Since this has been disproven by me, you are now changing your story to say that statistics give a general impression of the subject based on the majority opinion.

this was what i originally said...

best-sellers wouldnt be best-sellers if they werent that great.

please read my earlier posts.i never said they were DEFINITELY good.what i was trying to say was,best-sellers and box-office hits wouldnt be what they are if the public's general outlook on them is "bad".i was saying that the books and the movies would have to be considered by the general public as "good" for them to be best-sellers and box-office hits (which you have proven wrong in the same post,btw...^_^).

case in point:i am not trying to hide something.^_^

Wild Wild West was a huge hit and has a GENERAL NEGATIVE PERCEPTION. MEN IN BLACK II had a big box-office record and has a GENERAL NEGATIVE PERCEPTION.

i have lost this debate.^_^ i guess you are right.movies really dont need to be good to be box-office hits.i tried looking these two movies up at imdb and found a generally low rating (well,not really low,but not high enough to be considered "good" as well).mib2 has a 5.5 average rating from more than 26000 people,while wild wild west has a 4 from more than 22000.i guess that's a good enough statistic for me.

thanks for mentioning these two movies.i didnt know where to start researching before you mentioned these two.