Ultimecia and Squall's parents musings

[The Devourer Of Worlds]

SEED has condemned Ulti. After all, they have been training for the final confrontation with Ulti. Cant become more condemning on a person than training hundreds of warriors to fight her. I believe Ulti is referring to the "prophecy" ( I use that word loosely ) that SEED has taught their students. The coming of an evil sorceress that SEED is destined to fight.

Except she wasn’t directing these comments at seeD; she was directing them at Galbadian civilians. At this point, she was unaware that there were any seeD in the audience.

She refers to sorceress: single NOT plural. I dont believe all sorceresses were feared. There are feared ones ( Adel ) and respected ones ( Edea ). What makes you think all sorceresses were feared and hated? She refers to only one sorceress ( herself ) as evil.

Quote from Galbadia Garden, right before the first appearance of Irvine.

Martine:… In order to stress the importance of
this mission, I must first brief you on the current situation. At ease.
You all know about the sorceress being appointed as the peace
ambassador for the Galbadian government. However, this ambassador thing
is just a cover up. There will be no peace talks, only threats. The
sorceress creates fear among people. Therefore, peace talks are
impossible. Galbadia is planning to use this fear to negotiate
favorable conditions for itself.

This heavily implies that sorceresses are generally feared by the public, and Galbadia was planning to take advantage of this in order further their quest for world domination. In addition to this, the following is said by Raijin after his defeat in Balamb:

Raijin: Seifer has a lot of followers, but we're his only friends...
We're a posse, ya know...? The Galbadian soldiers are only listening to
Seifer 'cause they fear the sorceress. Without us, Seifer would have a
posse, ya know...?

So really, people aren’t following Edea out of ‘respect’ at all. They are following her purely because she is a figure of intimidation.

SEED knows that the coming sorceress is going to kill, that is common knowledge. She wonders know why they hold her in high esteem. The thing is that no one in Glabadia knew she was "The" sorceress destined to fight SEED.

I don’t think anyone (besides Cid and Edea herself) knew the true nature of seeD at this point in time. As far as the rest of the world knew, seeD was just an incredibly powerful and influential mercenary force.

[Noj_R]

In all of those quotes, Edea ( Ulti ) is still referred to as the sorceress, and that is singular not plural. You cannot make a statement like "ALL sorceresses cause fear in the masses" because only ONE is mentioned. Its kinda like sayin, "since Norg is intimidaing and Norg is a shumi. All shumis are intimidating".

Unless evidence is brought forth showing that sorceresses were feared, and not just one by herself ( i.e. Ulti and Adel ), then we must assume the SP theory is false.

[Qurange]

The Sorceress has a lot of power that the average person just can't understand; there are examples of evil Sorceresses in history (they tend to overshadow the good), and it just makes sense that people would initially be wary of someone with the power to rewrite the fabric of reality. Sure, the world doesn't universally quake in fear at the name of a Sorceress, but there's the fact that Galbadia knew that appointing a Sorceress as an ambassador would make the other countries cave due to fear.

Add to this that Ultimecia comes from a future in which SeeD has existed for some time, and may have even grown. It's not unreasonable to think that the future SeeDs, if not most of the world (which probably doesn't care until it matters to them) might fear or be wary of Sorceresses. SeeD in particular could become overzealous, and there you go.

Ultimecia is pre-emptively targeted as a Sorceress thanks to a Garden whose ideals have drifted from Cid and Edea's dream. It works.

[The Devourer Of Worlds]

In all of those quotes, Edea ( Ulti ) is still referred to as the sorceress, and that is singular not plural. You cannot make a statement like "ALL sorceresses cause fear in the masses" because only ONE is mentioned. Its kinda like sayin, "since Norg is intimidaing and Norg is a shumi. All shumis are intimidating".

Unless evidence is brought forth showing that sorceresses were feared, and not just one by herself ( i.e. Ulti and Adel ), then we must assume the SP theory is false.

The thing is, Galbadia Garden was able to anticipate that the masses would fear the Edea, even though at this point in time she was yet to commit any acts of terror. We know this because:

1. Edea was previous a good natured person before being taken over by Ultimecia.
2. Something President Deling says during Edea’s inalguration speech:

Edea: A new era has just begun.

President Deling: E-Edea... Are you alright...? Ede...!

Edea: (using her claws to stab and burn the president) This is reality.
No one can help you. Sit back and enjoy the show.

As can be seen, Deling was surprised by Edea’s sudden outburst, implying that at this moment in time, Ultimecia had not yet presented her true nature. So the only possible reason that Deling would automatically assume that people would be intimidated by Edea would be if people generally feared sorceresses. Either this is due to a predgidous that people have always had, or was cause by the atrocities committed by Sorceress Adel. Thus, fear of sorceresses spans back 17 years at the very least.

Of course, whether sorceresses were feared in the past has little relevence as to whether they will be persecuted in the future. As has been said several times now, the line ‘Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations’ is more or less irrefutable proof that people knew about Ultimecia's rise before she was born. So the only real question is whether or not people waited for Ultmecia to gain power before they did anything about her. The use of the word 'condemned implies no, no they did not.

[Sir Bahamut]

Devourer of Worlds and Qurange have both argued very well, and I don't have much to add besides what they said.

Firstly, despite the singular form being used (ie. sorceress, not sorceresses), it seems highly likely that people feared sorceresses in general, don't you agree? People feared Adel, and people feared Edea. The legend of Hyne even presents Hyne as a ruthless baby-killing sorceresses, and if their legends of sorceresses have that kind of a picture, I reckon it probably reflects what people thought.

Secondly, even assuming people aren't afraid of sorceresses in general (a highly illogical assumption IMO, for reasons stated), they would have every reason to be afraid of them after the game ends! Why? Because they would know, that although some sorceresses (like Edea) are actually benign, there would inevtiably come a sorceress (Ultimecia) who would kill countless people, wreak havoc in more than one era of time, and nearly destroy time and space as we know it. If that isn't reason enough to cause people to be suspicious of future sorceresses, I don't know what is!

Adding all the points argued by Qurange and Devourer of Worlds, along with all the initial points made, it seems HIGHLY likely that sorceresses would be, at least to an extent, persecuted.

EDIT: And as Devourer pointed out that Edea was giving her speech to civilians, not SeeD, the line 'condemned for generations' is indeed irrefutable proof of the persecution of sorceresses. From there, it is perfectly clear to see how a sorceress like Ultimecia might have come about.

[boys from the dwarf]

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

she doesnt need much backstory. shes just another peice of the time loop and didnt need much devolopment.the main part of the game was finding the source of the time loop and victims and finding out about the time loop and connectoins E.C.T not ending it. she wasnt a main part of the game.

[Noj_R]

I still fail to see the logic. Edea wasnt feared before Ulti possessed her, people respected good sorceresses, and Squall even says this to Rinoa at the orphanage after her rescue:

Squall: Don't worry about it. There've been many good sorceresses. Edea
was one. You can be like her.

You see, there were good sorceresses, the people in Deling thought Edea was one ( she is, but not when she is possessed ). Im sure there was some persecution, but definately not all sorceresses were.

As can be seen, Deling was surprised by Edea’s sudden outburst, implying that at this moment in time, Ultimecia had not yet presented her true nature.

Of course, they thought Edea ( Ulti ) was going to help them, they assumed she was good.

So the only possible reason that Deling would automatically assume that people would be intimidated by Edea would be if people generally feared sorceresses.

Deling was surprised because they believed Edea to be good. But when she killed the president, they saw who she really was, and it shocked them. Their hero had murdered their leader, of course they are going to be surprised, duh. That doesnt prove the SP theory true.

Sir Bahamut, your last post made alot of sense. I am starting to see your logic...Not all sorceresses were persecuted, but in Ulti's time she is most likely persecuted and rejected causing her anger. I wonder why no other sorceresses helped Ulti achieve her goal or tried TC too if they were all persecuted though.

[Qurange]

Personally, I think that Ultimecia probably killed most of the other Sorceresses in her time herself--to take on their powers, and so get closer to her goal. Given that Adel can try the same to Rinoa (though she failed), I certainly see it happening. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if she attempted something of the same while possessing Edea, before the game started.

But, I think you do see the most important point--maybe good sorceresses are respected in /this/ time (even if they probably make people nervous), but SeeD, if not the world, will only get more wary of Sorceresses by the time Ultimecia arrives--though I still don't think anyone but SeeD would've known about her in particular.

I doubt that even in this time they 'assume' goodness, but certainly, the present doesn't have the same hate. Then again, most people will never meet a Sorceress.

[The Devourer Of Worlds]

Noj_R, you don’t seem to get what I’m saying. I have little doubt that up until the speech in Deling City, Edea had been the polite, caring person she naturally is; and this is exactly my point. It is stated within the game that President Deling decided to use her as his ambassador because ‘The sorceress creates fear among people’, and he planned to use this to further his quest for world domination. Now, why on earth would he just assume that people would fear Edea if she hadn’t committed any menacing acts yet? The obvious answer (and as far as I can tell the only answer) is that he knew they would be afraid of her because she is a sorceress. Either this fear is because of Adel or it dates back even further, thus fear of sorceresses dates back at least to Adel’s rise to power; about 17 years ago.

That doesnt prove the SP theory true.

I did actually state that in my above posts.

Personally, I think that Ultimecia probably killed most of the other Sorceresses in her time herself--to take on their powers, and so get closer to her goal. Given that Adel can try the same to Rinoa (though she failed), I certainly see it happening. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if she attempted something of the same while possessing Edea, before the game started.

Actually, if what Odine said is true and Rinoa is the last sorceress left after Adel is killed, then Ultimecia must have been the only sorceress in her time as well. Unless of course sorceresses can pass portions of their powers to multiple people.

[Noj_R]

You are right. You have provided excellent evidence and negated all of my statements with reasonable ingame proof. I now believe that sorceresses were indeed feared and misunderstood despite their real intentions, whether they were good or bad. Cheers!

[Sir Bahamut]

Glad you now agree, and especially glad that you aren't one of those people who refuse to give in on an argument even after changing their mind! If there were more of that kind of people, the internet would be a better place