Ultimecia and Squall's parents musings

[LunarWeaver]

Sorry if this has been brought up before! And don't read this if you haven't beat it, but I think the spoiler warning has officially expired.

Why does Ultimecia do all she does? Why is she compressing time and hating on everyone? Does she somehow remember seeing herself defeated by Squall because it's in Edea's memory, so she's trying to kill SeeD before they kill her, not knowing that's why they kill her in the first place? But nothing is ever mentioned of sorceress's memories being passed on from on to the other, nor would she have any reason to possess Edea in the first place without any knowledge of what's going on...Time travel stuff hurts my head haha! Maybe I should just accept she's evil because she's like that and let it be.

Also, are Laguna and Raine squall's parents? I base this only off they never really tell you much about his 'rents, he had to get that ring from someone and Laguna gives a ring to Raine in the end, and the fact Raine looks like Squall's female twin in CG style. Does she have a baby that gets taken to the orphanage when Ellone does? That would leave an awful lot unexplained though...But Laguna could have got her pregnant without ever knowing it and then left before she knew it herself I guess. Or maybe not, it's been a while since I played this sucker and I forget all the story details... So why I'm thinking of all this now is beyond me.

Oh no, I've become one of those fans that reads everything from nothing and makes up theories!
*Dark Vader NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

[Noj_R]

Ultimecia is Ultimecia. No one else, and dont let any one tell you differently. Ultimecia is simply an evil witch hellbent on world domination. She doesnt have a motive, she is just insane. When you add insanity to the Ulti equation, everything makes sense then.

Also, Squall IS indeed the son of Raine and Laguna. There is tons of evidence supporting this in the game besides the fact that SquareEnix actually confirmed it themselves.

Anyway, hope that helped.

[Sir Bahamut]

I think you should be a bit careful to simply write away Ultimecia as a purely insane villain with no motive. True, there is obviously a level of 'insanity' in her, but there's certainly a lot more BEHIND that insanity.

For an account of what is in my opinion the best theory on Ultimecia(not made up by myself, mind you), please check out the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

The relevant section is "An Ultimecian Analysis - The Unjust Persecution".

For those too lazy to read it all, the brief summary is as follows:

The destructive events (ie. Galbadian War, near completion of Time Compression, Lunar Cry etc.) were certainly huige enough to be recorded as history. Ultimecia, too, would have been recorded. However, since Ultimecia was from the future, everyone would KNOW that it was inevtiable that she would some time be born. Ultimecia, having together with Adel, permanenly ruined the reputation of sorceresses, would have been anticipated and feared. People would root out sorceresses from birth, searching for Ultimecia, thinking naively that they could stop her from rising to power, and stop all the countless deaths she caused.

In doing so, Ultimecia would have been persecuted from birth, even without yet having done anything evil. She would thus have been set alone against the world, and would have become twisted, seeking revenge and retribution: Ultimecia is born. The rest is straightforward.

But really, read what I referred to. It's much more thorough.

EDIT: And all the proof that Laguna is Squalls father follows:

1) Laguna = Lagoon. Raine = Rain. Squall = Brief windstorm, usually with snow or rain.

All these names are connected, they are all to do with water.

2) Raine and Laguna had a child together. That child was sent to the orphanage

The children in the orphanage at that time were as we all know, Squall, Seifer, Ellone, Quistis, Zell, Irvine and Selphie. Ellone is the adoptive sister to that newborn child, and spends a significant part of her life trying to get Laguna back to Raine and this child. Coincidentally, who is the one person in the orphanage who Ellone is closely attached to? Squall.

Also notice how none of the other children are paid attention to at all when it comes to this plot question, and seeing as how it is a very relevant part of the game, you'd think Square didn't just decide to drop it completely.

3) In the Ragnarok, Laguna tellls Squall that "Ellone has told me everything" and "We'll talk when this is all over".

Since Ellone had just stopped her quest to get Laguna to see his newborn child, one would expect her to tell all about the child to Laguna, and it seems rather farfetched that she refused to give him the true identity. This would also have been basically the most important thing Ellone would tell Laguna, so it seems plausible that he is going to talk to Squall on the same issue.

4) Talk to Kiros and Ward in the Ragnarok, and Ward will say "Good thing you don't look like your father" in a joking manner, Kiros says "you look more like your mother". Kiros and Ward know the parents, and the father well enough to make fun of him jokingly. Who fits into this description then?

5) The tutorial tells us that Moombas recognize people by licking their blood.

In jail, a Moomba calls Squall "Laguna" many times. This means Squalls blood was so similar to Lagunas that it fooled the Moomba. That kind of scene isn't just put in there for randomness, nor to prove that Moombas are mentally unstable.

[TheSpoonyBard]

Did Ward know Raine? I though he was working as a janitor at that point.

[LunarWeaver]

Thanks a lot! Man I was sooo sketchy on details in the plot, and I totally missed all the obvious signs that Laguna is Squall's pops.

I like the theory on why Ultimecia is like she is. It just always sort of bothered me that she was evil just because she can be...Now I can sleep at night, victory! And for the record, I didn't mean to imply I thought Ultimecia WAS anyone else (this whole Rinoa is Ultimecia thing is craziness in a box), just trying to understand her better.

But that still leaves two unanswered questions to which I cannot find the answer: If everyone grew up in the orphanage together and had very similar childhoods, why did only Squall turn out to be a prickface? :chuckle: And number 2: Why doesn't Irvine get to do and say more beyond a basketball court scene and not being a good assassin. Where has he been? What has he been doing? Did someone adopt him too? I love Irvine Square, LOVE, give me something!

[HowlingMonkey]

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

[Shin Gouken]

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

I don't think she was badly developed. I think she is the way they intended her to be. They didn't give her a huge back up story because it wasn't nessessary to story plot or squall and rinoa. It also gave her a huge mystery and made you fear her because you knew nothing about her. She speaks very little, but what she says is in the script to confirm that she is just an insane bitch hellbent on world domination.

[Sir Bahamut]

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

[Qurange]

I do tend to like the idea that there's a reason behind Ultimecia's insanity--and I'm all for the theory that SeeD grew, over the years, and became overbearing and may have even been the cause for Ultimecia's snapping in the first place. It makes sense--the ideals and methods of organizations tend to drift, especially after the founders are centuries dead--but there is one problem with the way that link put it down, in my view.

I don't really think the world at large knew about Ultimecia. (Whether that was her real name or a name she took on as she started her quest or what). Sure, they knew that Galbadia, led by a Sorceress, started to press itself on the world at large, just like Adel and Esthar had done, but I don't think that they knew anything about Time Compression (except for a brief, weird feeling that governments dismissed as something else) or that Squall and company became at all famous for what they did. Garden knew--at least Balamb Garden--and a couple of others (including Odine and some high-ranking officials in the Esthar government), but I doubt that it ever became common knowledge. That's not all bad, of course--I bet Squall would be happy to have dodged the 'hero' bullet.

Of course, that doesn't actually hurt the theory; it's mostly a semantic difference, that Ultimecia wasn't hunted for being Ultimecia, but was watched like a hawk (and so possibly persecuted) for being a Sorceress. It's still an idea that fits with the world, and is definitely better than most out there.

I admit, though, I would like to think that she was intentionally made a mystery, to further drive home that she was from the future, long after they'd have had any conception of the world.

[TheAbominatrix]

Did Ward know Raine? I though he was working as a janitor at that point.

I'm pretty sure he's just making a dig on Laguna. It's also a fair deduction that if a child doesnt look like one parent he/she probably looks like the other.

Besides, Kiros or Laguna could have mentioned to Ward that Squall looks like Raine.

Oh, and much love to Sir Bahamut for massive awesomeness.

[Noj_R]

Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

I did read it, ALL of it. And it doenst make much sense. The whole analysis is based on assumptions and not real game facts. Edea has been a sorceress for at least 10 years ( we know this cause Squall was about 7 when Ulti have up her powers to Edea ), and nobody rooted Edea out.

Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

I don't think she was badly developed. I think she is the way they intended her to be. They didn't give her a huge back up story because it wasn't nessessary to story plot or squall and rinoa. It also gave her a huge mystery and made you fear her because you knew nothing about her. She speaks very little, but what she says is in the script to confirm that she is just an insane bitch hellbent on world domination.

I agree with you on this, she was never meant to be a fully developed character. I believe Square did this is to prevent the focus of the game from being pointed in the wrong " direction ". The story is a love story, if they developed Ulti too much it would change the focus of the game. This statement is entirely in my opinion of course.

[Fonzie]

I know why. I'd get banned for it though

[HowlingMonkey]

Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

I glanced over it, and found it to be quite lacking. The point is I shouldn't have to. Character should be inherently obvious just by playing the game, not require much theorising and leaps of assumption to infer.

[The Devourer Of Worlds]

I did read it, ALL of it. And it doenst make much sense. The whole analysis is based on assumptions and not real game facts. Edea has been a sorceress for at least 10 years ( we know this cause Squall was about 7 when Ulti have up her powers to Edea ), and nobody rooted Edea out.

Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

Edea: ...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned
for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless
sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered
countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands
before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say there was a slight bit of tension between normal humans and sorceresses in the past. Either that, or Ultimecia is referring to herself in her own time. If that was the case, this actually supplements Sir Bahamut’s assertion that she is the product of persecution even further…

[Sir Bahamut]

Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

I'm rather surprised that despite your claims of having read all of it, you still managed to miss all the vital bits, like the quote which "Devourer of Worlds" just posted. Perhaps you should read it once again, properly this time?

Firstly, Edeas glorification by Galbadia was because they thought she'd lead them to world domination (which was in fact what she was in the process of doing, but certainly not for the sake of the Galbadian people). It's a phenomenon similar to what you'll see on recordings of Hitler's speeches. Virtually all Germans will today see Hitler as being evil and insane, yet so many of them were drawn in under his plans for dominion in Europe. Same thing here. But after it's all over, after the truth about Ultimecia comes out, and after the spell has been broken, do you not think that they would turn against sorceresses? Furthermore, it is clear the all of Esthar obviously despise sorceress after Adel, and once Galbadia have experienced the same thing with Edea, do you not think they will join Esthar in fearing and hating sorceresses?

Secondly, you completely missed the fact that the analysis is based on what would hypothetically speaking happen AFTER the game has ended. You cannot use Edeas glorification as an argument that people will love sorceresses in the future! No, that's absurd. Adel has already distanced Esthar from sorceresses, and Ultimecias near destruction of all of time and space will surely distance Galbadia in the same fashion.

The speach Ultimecia makes, and which was just quoted, confirms this. She literally says that they have condemned her for generations, and clearly states that the public opinion of the sorceress was as a ruthless tyrant, slaughtering countless men! The tutorial further states that many sorceresses go into hiding, simply because they are sorceresses! Do you think the situation will improve after Ultimecia?

But really, do you honestly think that after first Adel, and now Ultimecia, that sorceresses will be embraced by the people and loved? Something tells me that she didn't exactly do much to help improve peoples picture of a sorceress as a loving, caring person..

So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

You offered ONE counter-example (hardly worthy of being labelled "occurences and facts", least of all in the plural!), and that wasn't even a valid argument to begin with, so your conclusion is completely baseless. I would advise you to read though the analysis again, without skimming this time =P

I glanced over it, and found it to be quite lacking. The point is I shouldn't have to. Character should be inherently obvious just by playing the game, not require much theorising and leaps of assumption to infer.

It's nice of you to point out that it's quite lacking without actually giving a single example, after only having 'glanced over it'. Do you always give such thorough reasoning behind your sweeping statements? Anyway, so you think Ultimecia should have spilled her heart out to us in some heart-wrenching scene instead, then? Ultimecia is at least a realistic enough villain to not stereotypically spill out her master plan and tormented life before attacking the hero :rolleyes2

Further, unless you actually care to back up your previous statement of flaws in the theory, there ISN'T a lot of theorising and 'leaps of assumption' necessary to substantiate the theory. The only assumption is that Ultimecias actions will be recorded in history. The rest is pure logic, based on the history of humanity.

Of course, if you think that any character who is explained only indirectly is instantly void of character, and that Ultimecia would literally have to spell it out to us for her to have any value, then I think you're missing out on a whole lot. It's true as has been said, Square didn't want to focus on Ultimecia, but that does NOT mean they decided to just forget about her and slap the insanity mark on her forehead and call her a villain. They simply decided to give us her story indirectly, so that we would actually have to look at what she's saying (her speach at Galbadia being a key point, other key point calling Squall "the legendary SeeD destined to face her").

By the way, if you intend to actually come with any arguments next post, please do more than 'glance over it', or I won't even bother responding.