The Story of Cloud and Seph...SPOILERS

[Omnislash07]

No--not similar; the process is identical. SOLDIERs are Sephiroth Clones.

No if every member of SOLDIER were a Seph clone then they would have all been at the reunion. The only Seph clones are the Black Cloaked men, Cloud, and Zack.

You're just grasping at this point. The Periodic Report to Hojo clearly states that his experimental subjects had not left Nibelheim at the time of the document's composition; their proximity to Nibelheim implies that they were taken from the general vicinity. Moreover, it would have been simple for Zangan to drag someone to safety, but it was his responsibility to take Tifa far from Nibelheim. "Not saving them" refers to failing to save them from Hojo.

Further still, Hojo acknowledges several times during the game that he had created a project dedicated to proving the Jenova Reunion Theory. Hojo makes specific reference to the CLONES at these times; these are the survivors he gathered after the disaster.

Zangan said

I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not having the strength

that means that he left them in the flames which means they burned to death. They all died, give it up.

Also you must be forgetting that the clones are everywhere and so they being in Nibleheim is not that big a deal. There was one at the Temple of the Ancients too, does that mean Hojo captured someone there and turned him into a clone. It doesnt make sense to say that just because the clones happen to be in that place that they origionally came from there, ecspecially when i have proved that everyone died.

Zack was a subject in Hojo's further research into the Jenova Project. As such a subject, he was given JENOVA cell injections, which had no effect upon him. Whether or not this was anticipated, it was obvious he was treated in such a manner, given that the Escapee Report explicitly states this. Had additional experimentation been performed on Zack, the report would have noted this. Your misconception regarding JENOVA cell dosage has already been deconstructed, and I'm not going to waste my time doing so again.

That is sort of what I am saying. I said that Zack was given J cells and mako treatments as part of the Jenova project. You agree to this and you also agree that normal SOLDIER members also get injected with j cells. So how can you say that Zack did not receive more j cells and mako radiation than the average member of SOLDIER?

As already noted, this is not necessarily the case, although his self-confidence may have granted him the mental fortitude necessary to resist the intrusions of the JENOVA cells. However, while the JENOVA cell and Mako exposure did not affect him, your previous argument implies that further experimentation would have such an effect. Hence, you contradict yourself. Even if this is not what you meant, this mysterious additional experimentation would not have taken place.

I never said that additional treatments of j cells would cause Zack to react the way Cloud did. In fact I said the exact opposite, I said that since Zack was strong enough to enter SOLDIER and take the initial dose of j cells and mako so it stands to reason that he would be able to take the second dose also. Also you already stated above that as Zack was part of the JENOVA project he did in fact get additional j cells and mako exposure added to what he got from being a normal SOLDIER.

Which was my theory, not yours. I'll take this as a concession.

Your theory? You never said that. Its a simple thing to understand and doesnt conceed to you anything.

This statement is patently absurd. Why would the Jenova Project require any experimentation beyond JENOVA cell exposure and Mako infusion? And, again, why would any further experimentation go undocumented? Why would this phantom experimentation have no effect on Zack, when the only apparent reason to perform it would be to do something that does have an effect? Why is there no reference to this in the game, or in Last Order?

The additional experimentation was just the additional j cells and mako exposure that Zack received as part of the JENOVA PROJECT not some kind of other secret experiment, sorry for the mix up.

Allow me to answer this for you. First, realize that they escaped. Given that research was still apparently ongoing, final determination of who constituted failed and successful Sephiroth Clones had not yet taken place.

Second, Cloud was not a failed Clone (unlike Zack). In fact, Cloud was the only successful Clone, as he effectively proved the Jenova Reunion Theory. In the context of this discussion, proving said theory constitutes success.

This raises the question of why Hojo viewed Cloud as a failure. The answer is that Cloud convinced Hojo of such. When the party headed through the Whirlwind Maze, Sephiroth continually screwed with Cloud's mind, playing off of Cloud's false memories, and ultimately succeeding in convincing Cloud that he wasn't human at all--merely a construct of living JENOVA cells.

Yes i know they escaped but the time between their escape and when you see the first Seph clone in black is a very short period of time. So that means that Hojo had probably already decided who was a failure and who was a success.

Also they were both failures. Zack was a failure because he was able to comepletly resist the will of the reunion. Cloud was a failure because he was overwhelmed by it all and so became mentally dead, as seen in LO. If Cloud was unable to move or think then he was also useless to Hojo. Cloud did prove to be a success though since after his escape he did regain his motor functions and was then able to follow the call to the reuinion. Also Cloud was not the only success, other Seph clones made it to the North Crater but Seph killed then and so Hojo never saw them.

Spirit Energy, of course, is the stuff of the Lifestream; it is the very essence of the Planet. It embodies a certain power, of course; this is at the heart of Sephiroth's plan in the game. By absorbing the power of the Lifestream; he enacts an artificial apotheosis of sorts; in other words, he becomes a god.

Cloud's abilities in Advent Children go far beyond anything that should be humanly possible. No one in real life could possibly jump hundreds of feet at a time, or block bullets, or perform Limit Breaks. Something, then, is behind his (and the other party members') otherworldly gifts. That something is Spirit Energy; their abilities are derived from the power of the Planet.

Dude you are trying to read too far into this. The reason they can do all of that stuff is simply because it is not the real world. I mean how would Cloud having a large amount of spirit energy allow him to leap in the air and call down a bunch of small asteroids? The limits, dodging bullets, and huge jumps are just things that keep people interested and are not caused by increased spirit energy. You know what you told me about my theory on how Cloud defeated Seph in the Nible reactor also applies to your theory. There is no reference in the game or other source that would indicate that Cloud and company have an increased amount of spirit energy than does everyone else and further nowhere does it say that an increased level of spirit would endow any special abilities anywhay.