The Story of Cloud and Seph...SPOILERS

[Omnislash07]

No--not similar; the process is identical. SOLDIERs are Sephiroth Clones.

No if every member of SOLDIER were a Seph clone then they would have all been at the reunion. The only Seph clones are the Black Cloaked men, Cloud, and Zack.

You're just grasping at this point. The Periodic Report to Hojo clearly states that his experimental subjects had not left Nibelheim at the time of the document's composition; their proximity to Nibelheim implies that they were taken from the general vicinity. Moreover, it would have been simple for Zangan to drag someone to safety, but it was his responsibility to take Tifa far from Nibelheim. "Not saving them" refers to failing to save them from Hojo.

Further still, Hojo acknowledges several times during the game that he had created a project dedicated to proving the Jenova Reunion Theory. Hojo makes specific reference to the CLONES at these times; these are the survivors he gathered after the disaster.

Zangan said

I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not having the strength

that means that he left them in the flames which means they burned to death. They all died, give it up.

Also you must be forgetting that the clones are everywhere and so they being in Nibleheim is not that big a deal. There was one at the Temple of the Ancients too, does that mean Hojo captured someone there and turned him into a clone. It doesnt make sense to say that just because the clones happen to be in that place that they origionally came from there, ecspecially when i have proved that everyone died.

Zack was a subject in Hojo's further research into the Jenova Project. As such a subject, he was given JENOVA cell injections, which had no effect upon him. Whether or not this was anticipated, it was obvious he was treated in such a manner, given that the Escapee Report explicitly states this. Had additional experimentation been performed on Zack, the report would have noted this. Your misconception regarding JENOVA cell dosage has already been deconstructed, and I'm not going to waste my time doing so again.

That is sort of what I am saying. I said that Zack was given J cells and mako treatments as part of the Jenova project. You agree to this and you also agree that normal SOLDIER members also get injected with j cells. So how can you say that Zack did not receive more j cells and mako radiation than the average member of SOLDIER?

As already noted, this is not necessarily the case, although his self-confidence may have granted him the mental fortitude necessary to resist the intrusions of the JENOVA cells. However, while the JENOVA cell and Mako exposure did not affect him, your previous argument implies that further experimentation would have such an effect. Hence, you contradict yourself. Even if this is not what you meant, this mysterious additional experimentation would not have taken place.

I never said that additional treatments of j cells would cause Zack to react the way Cloud did. In fact I said the exact opposite, I said that since Zack was strong enough to enter SOLDIER and take the initial dose of j cells and mako so it stands to reason that he would be able to take the second dose also. Also you already stated above that as Zack was part of the JENOVA project he did in fact get additional j cells and mako exposure added to what he got from being a normal SOLDIER.

Which was my theory, not yours. I'll take this as a concession.

Your theory? You never said that. Its a simple thing to understand and doesnt conceed to you anything.

This statement is patently absurd. Why would the Jenova Project require any experimentation beyond JENOVA cell exposure and Mako infusion? And, again, why would any further experimentation go undocumented? Why would this phantom experimentation have no effect on Zack, when the only apparent reason to perform it would be to do something that does have an effect? Why is there no reference to this in the game, or in Last Order?

The additional experimentation was just the additional j cells and mako exposure that Zack received as part of the JENOVA PROJECT not some kind of other secret experiment, sorry for the mix up.

Allow me to answer this for you. First, realize that they escaped. Given that research was still apparently ongoing, final determination of who constituted failed and successful Sephiroth Clones had not yet taken place.

Second, Cloud was not a failed Clone (unlike Zack). In fact, Cloud was the only successful Clone, as he effectively proved the Jenova Reunion Theory. In the context of this discussion, proving said theory constitutes success.

This raises the question of why Hojo viewed Cloud as a failure. The answer is that Cloud convinced Hojo of such. When the party headed through the Whirlwind Maze, Sephiroth continually screwed with Cloud's mind, playing off of Cloud's false memories, and ultimately succeeding in convincing Cloud that he wasn't human at all--merely a construct of living JENOVA cells.

Yes i know they escaped but the time between their escape and when you see the first Seph clone in black is a very short period of time. So that means that Hojo had probably already decided who was a failure and who was a success.

Also they were both failures. Zack was a failure because he was able to comepletly resist the will of the reunion. Cloud was a failure because he was overwhelmed by it all and so became mentally dead, as seen in LO. If Cloud was unable to move or think then he was also useless to Hojo. Cloud did prove to be a success though since after his escape he did regain his motor functions and was then able to follow the call to the reuinion. Also Cloud was not the only success, other Seph clones made it to the North Crater but Seph killed then and so Hojo never saw them.

Spirit Energy, of course, is the stuff of the Lifestream; it is the very essence of the Planet. It embodies a certain power, of course; this is at the heart of Sephiroth's plan in the game. By absorbing the power of the Lifestream; he enacts an artificial apotheosis of sorts; in other words, he becomes a god.

Cloud's abilities in Advent Children go far beyond anything that should be humanly possible. No one in real life could possibly jump hundreds of feet at a time, or block bullets, or perform Limit Breaks. Something, then, is behind his (and the other party members') otherworldly gifts. That something is Spirit Energy; their abilities are derived from the power of the Planet.

Dude you are trying to read too far into this. The reason they can do all of that stuff is simply because it is not the real world. I mean how would Cloud having a large amount of spirit energy allow him to leap in the air and call down a bunch of small asteroids? The limits, dodging bullets, and huge jumps are just things that keep people interested and are not caused by increased spirit energy. You know what you told me about my theory on how Cloud defeated Seph in the Nible reactor also applies to your theory. There is no reference in the game or other source that would indicate that Cloud and company have an increased amount of spirit energy than does everyone else and further nowhere does it say that an increased level of spirit would endow any special abilities anywhay.

[Masamune·1600]

No if every member of SOLDIER were a Seph clone then they would have all been at the reunion. The only Seph clones are the Black Cloaked men, Cloud, and Zack.

Again, you've overlooked evidence within the game. The entire point is that SOLDIER members can generally resist the effects of JENOVA cells. Even they can be slightly affected, but it's controllable. The critical example is the SOLDIER-turned-shopkeeper in Junon, who states that he has an inexplicable desire to wear black. Obviously, though, he is not nearly so affected as the CLONES.

Zangan said

that means that he left them in the flames which means they burned to death. They all died, give it up.

This is not the case; the letter clarifies the matter further down. Moreover, LO makes it clear that there were other survivors. Most critically, however, you still fail to acknowledge that the black-garbed figures must have been taken from somewhere; if the project derives it source from the survivors, and the CLONES are part of the project, then the survivors extend beyond Cloud and Zack.

Also you must be forgetting that the clones are everywhere and so they being in Nibleheim is not that big a deal. There was one at the Temple of the Ancients too, does that mean Hojo captured someone there and turned him into a clone. It doesnt make sense to say that just because the clones happen to be in that place that they origionally came from there, ecspecially when i have proved that everyone died.

Your statement assumes that the CLONES seen elsewhere are not those encountered in Nibelheim. I suggest you return to that town, where the CLONES have "mysteriously" vanished. Needless to say, they followed Sephiroth; this is directly stated. In other words, the CLONES found at the Temple of the Ancients and the Whirlwind Maze were the same CLONES that originally were scattered throughout Nibelheim.

That is sort of what I am saying. I said that Zack was given J cells and mako treatments as part of the Jenova project. You agree to this and you also agree that normal SOLDIER members also get injected with j cells. So how can you say that Zack did not receive more j cells and mako radiation than the average member of SOLDIER?

Yet you argue that Zack was weaker after his confinement. This is not the case, but neither is it the case that the experimentation really enhanced him in any way. His abilities are effectively the same both before and after his captivity in LO. There's no evidence that increased exposure does anything to enhance abilities--in any case, said exposure was probably somewhat limited, given that the Mako infusion was not sufficient to induce mutation.

Your theory? You never said that. Its a simple thing to understand and doesnt conceed to you anything.

From my original post:

It doesn't make sense to assume that Cloud was unable to enter SOLDIER because of any sort of physical deficiency, given his almost otherworldly combat prowess. There are only two reasonable conclusions as to his failure to enter SOLDIER: that his self-doubt was determined to be to crippling for entry, or that extremely limited exposure to JENOVA cells showed that he would be unable to function properly when fully injected. The second scenario seems more likely to me, given that such injection is an unavoidable element of becoming a member of SOLDIER.

From your reply in the next post.

He doesnt become inhumanly strong until after the Niblheim incident where Hojo injects him with Jenova cells and makes him a Seph clone. I believe that candidates for Soldier must already be extremely strong/athletic before they are allowed to join and Cloud was unable to join because of this. Also they do not inject the people with Jenova cells until after they join Soldier because if they injected it into all the applicants then all of their normal soldiers who failed to get into Soldier would have been drawn to the reunion.

He is physically built like a member of Soldier AFTER the Hojo experiments, not before.

Your concession, whereby you abandon your previous stance and attempt to adopt mine.

The fact that Cloud reacted badly to the experiments is no suprise because he would not even let him in SOLDIER which would have given him a much smalled dose of radiation and j cells.

In an ongoing debate, one can be held accountable for previous posts. This is the case here.

The additional experimentation was just the additional j cells and mako exposure that Zack received as part of the JENOVA PROJECT not some kind of other secret experiment, sorry for the mix up.

Alright.

Yes i know they escaped but the time between their escape and when you see the first Seph clone in black is a very short period of time. So that means that Hojo had probably already decided who was a failure and who was a success.

They had not yet been given tattoos, hence their role in the Project was not yet complete. Moreover, it was impossible to know which, if any, Clones would fail. That was the whole point of allowing their migration toward Sephiroth and the head of JENOVA.

Also they were both failures. Zack was a failure because he was able to comepletly resist the will of the reunion. Cloud was a failure because he was overwhelmed by it all and so became mentally dead, as seen in LO. If Cloud was unable to move or think then he was also useless to Hojo. Cloud did prove to be a success though since after his escape he did regain his motor functions and was then able to follow the call to the reuinion. Also Cloud was not the only success, other Seph clones made it to the North Crater but Seph killed then and so Hojo never saw them.

You fail to understand what happened. Please review my previous post. The definition of a successful Sephiroth Clone is one who could fully reach the original Sephiroth, encased in materia after the Maze. Cloud was able to accomplish this; as a result, the veracity of the Jenova Reunion Project was demonstrated. Hojo specifically designated his hypothesis as a success, only becoming upset after Cloud mistakenly referred to himself as a failure. Again, he did so only because of the manipulations of Sephiroth.

Dude you are trying to read too far into this. The reason they can do all of that stuff is simply because it is not the real world. I mean how would Cloud having a large amount of spirit energy allow him to leap in the air and call down a bunch of small asteroids? The limits, dodging bullets, and huge jumps are just things that keep people interested and are not caused by increased spirit energy. You know what you told me about my theory on how Cloud defeated Seph in the Nible reactor also applies to your theory. There is no reference in the game or other source that would indicate that Cloud and company have an increased amount of spirit energy than does everyone else and further nowhere does it say that an increased level of spirit would endow any special abilities anywhay.

While my proposal involves a small degree of analysis, there are indications in the original game. You've ignored the fact that assimilating a vast amount of Spirit Energy would in effect make Sephiroth a god; more importantly, you've ignored that strong Spirit Energy is necessary to enact the more profound powers of the game.

Cloud: Mmm? Can you guys use it [the Black Materia]?

Aeris: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use
it.

Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?

Aerithsial.
Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The Promised Land!!

Cloud: The Promised Land!! No, but...

Aeris: Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.

Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

Not only is it explicitly stated that strong spiritual power is necessary to use the Black Materia, Sephiroth implies that his journey through the Lifestream made him more powerful.

Moreover, you make an argument for...nothing, the absence of explanation. Given that the creators of AC have publicly stated that the story, not the battles, were developed first, wouldn't it seem strange if the battles created a plot hole, particularly in a film with a relatively brief plot? Why, for example, are the party members capable of such feats, when the regular citizens of Edge are easily overcome by Shadow Creepers? These details have no bearing on the greater story, but are easily answered simply by analyzing the FFVII mythos on its most basic level.

This thread seems to have deviated from its intended course, which was to explain certain elements of the story of FFVII. Please realize that your arguments are based on your opinions. Until you're willing to analyze the game more closely, it's unreasonable to expect to grasp some of its nuances. For the sake of anyone who would like clarification on the story, realize that continuing to argue with me is detrimental to those individuals.

[TheAbominatrix]

Not to add a lot to this, because Masamune has it covered, but Omnislash, try going to Nibelhiem and speaking with the black cloaked figures. Their placement and mannerisms mirror the people who had lived in Nibelhiem before the fire. Most especially the two children... the black cloaked figures act exactly as those children had; the younger mirroring the words of the older. They are the survivors, after being experimented on by Hojo.

[Aqua Heart]

so is the sephy you see in the north crater (one that is solidified in the materia..and who recieves the black materia from cloud) the same sephy that cloud defeated and fell into the life stream? and if so is the sephy we see at the begineing of the game and follow from twn to twn, mealy a clone as well. sorry i just need this cleared up in my mind.. i got everything else sorted lol. cheerz

[cloud_doll]

okay, this is confusing, but anyways, i have one question. how is sephiroth in the north crater, running around the world, and in the lifestream at the same time? is the real sephiroth in the north crater, or in the lifestream? and is the one running around just an illusion, or a clone?

[TheAbominatrix]

The Sephiroth the party chases throughout the game is not a clone, because the clones do not look anything like Sephiroth. The person the party chases is Jenova, assuming Sephiroth's form. That's why everytime you catch up to Seph, you fight a piece of Jenova.

[Aqua Heart]

o i get it thanks alot m8. so how did the sephiroth manage to get into the north crater wen he was struck down into the lifestream? thnks alot

[starseeker]

Sephiroth floated through the lifestream and washed up as it were at the northern crater where spirit energy collects to repair the damage done by Jenova. Since materia is condensed mako energy (lifestream) it's clear that he had to have been immersed in the mako energy to be surrounded by materia so he had to have been in the lifestream.

[Masamune·1600]

Sephiroth floated through the lifestream and washed up as it were at the northern crater where spirit energy collects to repair the damage done by Jenova. Since materia is condensed mako energy (lifestream) it's clear that he had to have been immersed in the mako energy to be surrounded by materia so he had to have been in the lifestream.

Actually, the Lifestream is comprised of Spirit Energy, which is not exactly the same as Mako. Mako Energy is compressed and processed Spirit Energy...

Bugenhagen: Everyday Mako reactors suck up Spirit energy, diminishing it.
Spirit energy gets compressed in the reactors and processed into Mako energy.
All living things are being used up and thrown away. In other words, Mako
energy will only destroy the Planet...

...and seems to have certain mutagenic properties not inherent to Spirit Energy. Having said that, Spirit Energy can naturally condense all the way to materia (Mako condensed to a crystal form), as was the case at the Northern Crater, the materia fountain at Nibel, and the materia caves (for Mime, Quadra Magic, HP<->MP, and Knights of the Round) throughout the game.

As you mention, Sephiroth indeed traveled through the Lifestream, as the Nibel Reactor depths into which he plummeted would have certainly needed to link to a source of Spirit Energy. In fact, Sephiroth attests to his journey through the Lifestream.

Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

[Aqua Heart]

thnks starseeker that helps loads.

[cloud_doll]

oh ok, so sephiroth was at the north crater the whole time and it was jenova that took form of sephiroth and cause havoc...right?

thanks

[Masamune·1600]

Physically, yes, although Sephiroth's will could be exercised through the "Sephiroth form."

[Omnislash07]

Sorry for not posting for a while but i had other things more important to do. Anyway I've decided to stop posting on here because A) I really dont feel like arguing about it and B) I havent played the game in a year and dont feel like playing it again right now to refresh all the small details. So if one of you guys feels like posting the story thing go ahead but im not going to continue mine or post anymore.

[starseeker]

This topic was very imformative though and the best example of a debate I've seen in a while. I now know about the details of the game better thanks to you two (omnislash & masamune)