Greatest Final Fantasy Ever

[Amaru]

Please don't take any offence out of this next line, or my entire post for that matter, but people who usually say that something has a plot hole, are those who didn't take time to understand the story.

Plot Hole#1- When President ShinRa is murdered, he is found with the masamune in his back, yet the blade was thrown in the Lifestream with Sephiroth, and should still be there.

So did Sephiroth, so did Jenova's head. Both were recovered. So what's this plot hole again?

Plot Hole #2- The Weapons were creatures that helped protect the planet. Two attack the cities causing the most damage (Midgar and Junon). But one of the other Weapons attacks a tiny fishing villiage that's not even near a reactor? what's the point in that? People will say because the Lifestream was acting up, but the Lifestream essentially is the planet.

I take it that you missed the entire section of the game where Burgenhagen explains about the Weapons and Holy. The Weapons were made to protect the Planet. Humans were seen as aiding in the Planet's slow decay. By summoning Holy, there was a chance that the Planet would wipe out humanity itself, this was a giant risk that the group had to take and formed a huge plot point in the game. How could you miss this?

Plot Hole #3- If Sephy was in Northern Crater the whole time, how did he release Jenova, take the Black Materia, or kill Aeris. And before anyone says it was Jenova manipulating Cloud's mind to make him think it was Sephiroth, why didn't the other characters say anything? And it wasn't a clone because Hojo says they were only created to see if they would come to the Reunion

Again, no offence, but play the game again, and listen to the story elements (I mean, it's hard not to - they are everywhere) about the Reunion, about Jenova's abilities, and about Sephiroth himself.

There are no plot holes here. You just didn't understand the story.

[Griff]

Please don't take any offence out of this next line, or my entire post for that matter, but people who usually say that something has a plot hole, are those who didn't take time to understand the story.

So did Sephiroth, so did Jenova's head. Both were recovered. So what's this plot hole again?


I take it that you missed the entire section of the game where Burgenhagen explains about the Weapons and Holy. The Weapons were made to protect the Planet. Humans were seen as aiding in the Planet's slow decay. By summoning Holy, there was a chance that the Planet would wipe out humanity itself, this was a giant risk that the group had to take and formed a huge plot point in the game. How could you miss this?

Again, no offence, but play the game again, and listen to the story elements (I mean, it's hard not to - they are everywhere) about the Reunion, about Jenova's abilities, and about Sephiroth himself.

There are no plot holes here. You just didn't understand the story.

#1- Sephiroth's body was found in Northern Crater encased in hardened Mako, it was never "recovered" in any way. As for Jenova's head, where in the game does it say anything about it being thrown in the lifestream, much less recovered? And even so, it states directly in the game that "Sephiroth is the only person who can weild that sword"

#2- The Weapons were awakened after Meteor was summoned, to try to protect the planet. Weapon and Holy are two seperate entities with the same general purpose. You make it sound as if Weapon was awakened as part of Holy. My point here is that why would Weapon attack Mideel, a town that only causes damage to the world's fish population, and leave all the town's with reactors at peace. As I said before, the other attacks on Junon and Midgar make sense, but attacking a small fishing villiage doesn't. And even if Holy and Weapon were connected, why would Weapon go after the town when the actual spell only went after Midgar?

#3- Jenova couldn't have freed itself from captivity, if it could have it wouldn't have waited around for however long, that's just common sense,it couldn't actually be Sephiroth because he is dead and encased in Mako and the clones are shown as being physically weak so often through the game up to reunion that it's implausible for one to make it through a crapload of ShinRa guards, free Jenova, and kill the President with a sword it can't weild. As for the Black Materia and Aeris' death, no matter what anyone says it is it is just theory, nothing is ever stated about either as concrete evidence .

Also, don't question the intelligence and understanding of someone when your best argument is "go back and play the game again" and you provide no real evidence to support your point.

[Amaru]

Also, don't question the intelligence and understanding of someone when your best argument is "go back and play the game again" and you provide no real evidence to support your point.

I didn't question your intelligence. I questioned your understanding of events by calling these three points plot holes when they are clearly not. And from your response that I have skimmed through, you clearly do need to go back and play the game. Again, please don't take this as a veiled insult, as it's not, it's a suggestion to broaden your own understanding of events. I could stand here and give you solid point after point, but if you don't play the game and see it for yourself, you're not going to take any of it on board.

#1- Sephiroth's body was found in Northern Crater encased in hardened Mako, it was never "recovered" in any way. As for Jenova's head, where in the game does it say anything about it being thrown in the lifestream, much less recovered? And even so, it states directly in the game that "Sephiroth is the only person who can weild that sword"

Right, let me take each of those points in turn. During the Nibelheim incident when Cloud attacked Sephiroth from behind, he was holding Jenova's head - as he had recovered it from the Reactor's core. During the Sephiroth / Cloud struggle, when Cloud managed to hold on and threw Sephiroth into the Lifestream, Sephiroth was still holding Jenova's head. Sephiroth always had Jenova's head with him. It's how he learned more about her and her abilities when he was traversing the Lifestream and ended up in the Northern Crater.

The last piece of Jenova that you fight, Jenova's Rebirth, deep in the Planet's core during the last portions of the game, was formed from her head. To further prove this point, both Kadaj and the Turks in Advent Children ventured into the Northern Crater to recover it.

This next part is such a mute point that it doesn't even deserve debating. The fact is, Sephiroth was thrown into the Lifestream where his sword was. It's not that hard to conceive that it was recovered, through some mental act or otherwise.

#2- The Weapons were awakened after Meteor was summoned, to try to protect the planet. Weapon and Holy are two seperate entities with the same general purpose. You make it sound as if Weapon was awakened as part of Holy. My point here is that why would Weapon attack Mideel, a town that only causes damage to the world's fish population, and leave all the town's with reactors at peace. As I said before, the other attacks on Junon and Midgar make sense, but attacking a small fishing villiage doesn't. And even if Holy and Weapon were connected, why would Weapon go after the town when the actual spell only went after Midgar?

Again, this is why I said that you need to play the game again. You missed, or simply did not read properly, the entire Burgenhagen segment of the game. The Weapons were forged during the birth of the Planet itself, as a way for it to defend itself in dire need. They will attack all those that are hurting the Planet. Like you mentioned, Holy serves the same general purpose, but Burgenhagen clearly explained that how it's power was unleashed, was directly up to the Planet itself. Humans itself could be seen as a threat. They build, they have wars, they destroy, they sap the Planet's lifeforce. Though they first targeted the main 'war' places, like Junon and Midgar, the Weapons attacked indescriminately at humans, further highlighting the point that humans itself could be seen as a threat to the Planet.

However, with Meteor falling, the group had no choice but to press on for Holy anyway. It was their only chance in a situation which could see them all destroyed, or saved.

#3- Jenova couldn't have freed itself from captivity, if it could have it wouldn't have waited around for however long, that's just common sense,it couldn't actually be Sephiroth because he is dead and encased in Mako and the clones are shown as being physically weak so often through the game up to reunion that it's implausible for one to make it through a crapload of ShinRa guards, free Jenova, and kill the President with a sword it can't weild. As for the Black Materia and Aeris' death, no matter what anyone says it is it is just theory, nothing is ever stated about either as concrete evidence .

Huh? So you're saying that through the entire game it wasn't Sephiroth and it wasn't Jenova? Seriously, this is why I asked you to replay the game. It wasn't a snide comment, it was to enhance your understanding of things, because if you currently don't believe, or understand, in either of those two, then you've missed a huge chunk of the actual storyline.

The reason that I didn't go into any depth in this the last time, was because I had recently debated with another about these exact events. However, neither of us seem to have a problem understanding the two major forces behind the game, like you seem to, only how they were executed. You say that Sephiroth is dead and has no presence in the game. you say that Jenova can do nothing, and even further, I have no idea what you are saying about the Black Materia and Aeris' death being just a theory.

Please take a look at the Jenova and Sephiroth thread in the Final Fantasy VII subforum. Through the opposing arguments, you'll see the power and presence that these two have in the game, and it should help you understand a lot of in-game aspects.


Again, don't take any offence by me asking you to replay the game, but even with all the points that I have made, you aren't going to fully understand them unless you play again and properly read through the storyline. Either way, my initial point remains. Those issues that you highlighted simply aren't plotholes.

[Griff]

Huh? So you're saying that through the entire game it wasn't Sephiroth and it wasn't Jenova?

In the case of the ShinRa building at least like i said at that time Sephiroth was encased in Mako and if Jenova could've escaped itself it would have way before Cloud and Co. convieniently got there, so what freed it? Like I said before the clones are too weak to get past the guards and if it was Sephiroth's "spirit" able to cause actual harm, it would have been able to get the Black Materia from TOTA since as a spirit, he has no physical body to get crushed.

I have no idea what you are saying about the Black Materia and Aeris' death being just a theory.

What I meant by that is that no proof is given about who or what takes the Black Materia or kills Aeris. Some people say Jenova disguised as Sephiroth, some say Sephiroth's spirit, one person tried to tell me that Holy requires a sacrifice to work and Aeris was showing Cloud and the gang an illusion of Sephiroth stabbing her to keep them on the trail while she lets herself die (although that would explain the lack of a hole or blood). What i'm saying is all of these are just theories and no definative proof can be found in the game for any one of them. It's the same case for when Tifa and Cloud are under the Highwind, but no one sane cares if the had sex or not.

[Amaru]

A quick apology to the author of this topic. Though I wasn't the one to start this huge vergence on the actual concept of this topic itself, I have aided greatly in it...

In the case of the ShinRa building at least like i said at that time Sephiroth was encased in Mako and if Jenova could've escaped itself it would have way before Cloud and Co. convieniently got there, so what freed it? Like I said before the clones are too weak to get past the guards and if it was Sephiroth's "spirit" able to cause actual harm, it would have been able to get the Black Materia from TOTA since as a spirit, he has no physical body to get crushed.

Jenova didn't escape itself. Sephiroth's will was projected into Jenova. He then gained control of her, caused her to transform into his image, and then broke out.

Sephiroth couldn't get the Black Materia itself since the Temple would crush anyone who solved the inner-puzzles. Sephiroth couldn't give up his only physical link to the world (i.e Jenova's body), but like Cloud and the others mentioned, it meant nothing to him to get one of the clones to do it, which is why Cait Sith was sacrificed in the first place - so that they could get their hands on it first.

What the group didn't realise at the time was that this was what Sephiroth wanted anyway. He wanted Cloud himself to bring it to him.

What I meant by that is that no proof is given about who or what takes the Black Materia or kills Aeris. Some people say Jenova disguised as Sephiroth, some say Sephiroth's spirit, one person tried to tell me that Holy requires a sacrifice to work and Aeris was showing Cloud and the gang an illusion of Sephiroth stabbing her to keep them on the trail while she lets herself die (although that would explain the lack of a hole or blood). What i'm saying is all of these are just theories and no definative proof can be found in the game for any one of them. It's the same case for when Tifa and Cloud are under the Highwind, but no one sane cares if the had sex or not.

The official writers of the video game, the official compendium, various websites, the majority of the fans, and a majority of the in-game text provide this absolute answer - it's Sephiroth in control of Jenova's body. It was whilst in Jenova's body that he killed President Shinra and Aeris. This isn't a theory, this is the truth. Even if you don't want to belive the game writers (for whatever strange reason you'd do that) the evidence and proof is all there. You just need to look closely at the clues, at the explanations, and what is being said during events, and when.

As for the Tifa and Cloud thing. Something that isn't even mentioned in the game, isn't even a plothole. That's just wishful thinking by some honry fans.


But yeah, if you want, we can continue this in the Jenova and Sephiroth thread, so that this one can get back on topic...

[Fantasy Fan]

FFIX is the best.

FFVII, FFVIII, FFVI, FFV, FFIV are also good.

[~SapphireStar~]

For me FF8 will always be my favourite and best FF. Im not sure which would follow, 7 or 9. 7 has gotten annoying for me because its getting milked far too much now and 9 wsa never a fav to begin with. Actually, 8 then X2!

[Fantasy Fan]

well my oppinion on X-2 is,'music video' it just didn't work as FF.

[~SapphireStar~]

Wha? Sorry but that made no sense. FFX2 is music video? It did work as an FF, FFX2 fans?

[Fantasy Fan]

there aren't any fans. It's probably the worst Square game. Worse than KH.

[DeathKnight]

there aren't any fans. It's probably the worst Square game. Worse than KH.

Well now, you better get ready to get your butt kicked by FF and KH fans

Unlike FFIX(which is based on Zidane and Garnet), FFX-2 presents EVERY character in a meaningful important way.

FFIX is so bad that people BARELY remember Freya and other characters, and the summons, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, the summons came late and didn't look that impressive either.

But you kjnow, for BOTH of us it's good to know that what you said and I said are both opinions.

[Shiny]

FFIX is so bad that people BARELY remember Freya and other characters, and the summons, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, the summons came late and didn't look that impressive either.

...I remember Freya. I know 9 is better than X-2. Heck, I bet even that online XI is better than X-2. But, if you liked it good for you.

[Fantasy Fan]

agreed.

[Marluxiaswife]

there aren't any fans. It's probably the worst Square game. Worse than KH.

think again there are a ton of fans you haven't meet them yet, bet i'm a ffx-2 fan! ^_^
and there are ffx-2 fans on this site and around the world

NOW!!!!

[Skarr]