i wonder what ultemicia's real name

[TheAbominatrix]

Except that she cant be, as confirmed by Square.

Prove it.

Square's Ultimania guide for the game states that Sorceress' have normal life spans. And the game states that Ultimecia lives generations into the future. Given that anyone with a normal life span will not live that long, and certainly not be young and spry as Ultimecia, Rinoa is not her.

Feel free to search through the forums for links to Ultimania translations, as I really dont feel arsed to at present.

And if you arent up to speed on Ultimanias, they're official companion books for the Final Fantasy games with extra information included.

This has already been mentioned and has been dismissed as proof. When you bring in the element of time manipulation, any kind of argument regarding "normal life spans" gets completely thrown out the window.

Anyways, Ultimecia's real name is (SPOILER)Ulcia

No proof supplied right now.

-LYCHON

Been dismissed as truth by who? You?

Rinoa has no means of time manipulation normally. There's no way she could go generations into the future to become Ultimecia. Saying it's Rinoa after time manipulation is just grasping at straws to try and prove a theory that has been disproven by SE.

But I'm sure you'll continue to insist upon it, as you do with most everything regardless of facts, so feel free.

[escobert]

Ultimecia (アルティミシア Arutimishia) is the main antagonist in Squaresoft's role playing game Final Fantasy VIII. A sorceress from the future, Ultimecia is a being of extreme evil -- though not insane as often assumed. She is capable of reaching back through time via a special machine in order to possess other sorceresses and manipulate them. Fully aware of her predestined fate, she desires to conquer it through bringing about the phenomenon of "Time Compression", by which all times would merge and she could absorb the power of all the sorceresses, becoming "a living god", incapable of dying.

Ironically, history is ultimately immutable in Final Fantasy VIII and it is through her desire to alter the past and cheat her fate that she fufills the terms of her destiny — defeat at the hands of Squall Leonhart and his comrades — and perpetuates the cycle that will lead to the formation of SeeD, an example of the predestination paradox.

There are a number of points in the game that show that Ultimecia, as a being from the future, is already aware of her role in history and from the speech she gives to the population of Deling City-

"...Lowlifes... shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler." - Ultimecia (as Edea)

It seems clear that she has already suffered intense persecution; future generations, being aware of the coming of Ultimecia thanks to her failed attempt at Time Compression, likely reacted by targeting all sorceresses for persecution and isolation, fearing that any one of them could eventually become the "cold-blooded tyrant" that Ultimecia speaks of.

This prejudice, in turn, is perhaps what drove Ultimecia — condemned for crimes she had not even yet committed — to evil in the first place, thus perpetuating the cycle.

Likewise, she clearly has foreknowledge that she will be faced (and supposedly defeated) by SeeD. The first time she is encountered by all the main characters she says (to Squall's confusion): "So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"

[Sir Bahamut]

You could have just linked directly to the Wikipedia site you know =P

[Serapy]

Square's Ultimania guide for the game states that Sorceress' have normal life spans. And the game states that Ultimecia lives generations into the future. Given that anyone with a normal life span will not live that long, and certainly not be young and spry as Ultimecia, Rinoa is not her.

Feel free to search through the forums for links to Ultimania translations, as I really dont feel arsed to at present.

And if you arent up to speed on Ultimanias, they're official companion books for the Final Fantasy games with extra information included.

Well, why the hell would Square tell the whole world about the entirely information of facts for FF8? I thought Square always expect people to debate and justify the rumors, etc.

Let's hook up some possibilities of Rinoa or her descendants becoming Ultemecia or whatever you prefer:

Rinoa had this feeling and claimed that she could reach up to be Ultimecia with intent while she was in an unabnormal way during in the Ragnarok ship. In other words, Ultimecia didn't control her at that time.

There was a Griver during the Ultimecia battle, which was mind developed by Squall or maybe not but Rinoa behaves pretty erratically that she was curious: dicussing about Griver with Squall in the middle of the game (at the Galbadia Garden), pretty surprisely or not.

At the end of the game, you will see some flashbacks of Ultimecia while Rinoa was behind it? Remember how Rinoa acts during that scene? She's pulled her first finger up to her mouth in a happy way and she smiled and repeatedly doing that, infront of you (Squall, maybe?). After scenario of the party, Rinoa pulled her first finger and smiled again and all of a sudden, Squall appeared.

Sorceresses have powers to do so, which tend them to have long lives span.

There are many more.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, why the hell would Square tell the whole world about the entirely information of facts for FF8? I thought Square always expect people to debate and justify the rumors, etc.

They do, and they don't explain absolutely everything either (eg. Time Compression). In this case though, they gave us just the information we need to dismiss the R=U theory. If you have a problem with the information Square will and will not give out, you can always take it up with Square-Enix =P

Rinoa had this feeling and claimed that she could reach up to be Ultimecia with intent while she was in an unabnormal way during in the Ragnarok ship. In other words, Ultimecia didn't control her at that time.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you please phrase yourself a little more clearly? If you're referring to Rinoa's comment about her powers reaching Ultimecia, that indicates only that Ultimecia will inherit Rinoas powers, not that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

There was a Griver during the Ultimecia battle, which was mind developed by Squall or maybe not but Rinoa behaves pretty erratically that she was curious: dicussing about Griver with Squall in the middle of the game (at the Galbadia Garden), pretty surprisely or not.

Firstly, it WAS developed from Squall's mind.
Secondly, Rinoa asking Squall about Griever outside Galbadia Garden does not indicate that Rinoa is Ultimecia. That's highly farfetched.

At the end of the game, you will see some flashbacks of Ultimecia while Rinoa was behind it? Remember how Rinoa acts during that scene? She's pulled her first finger up to her mouth in a happy way and she smiled and repeatedly doing that, infront of you (Squall, maybe?). After scenario of the party, Rinoa pulled her first finger and smiled again and all of a sudden, Squall appeared.

I don't know what you're trying to argue for with this statement. Can you please clarify?

Sorceresses have powers to do so, which tend them to have long lives span.

But as stated, the Ultimania Guide (ie. Square) stated black on white that this is not the case. A sorceress has a perfectly normal lifespan.

There are many more.

Not really. Read this first:

http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2005/q2/041805gm.html

[Lychon]

Been dismissed as truth by who? You?

Rinoa has no means of time manipulation normally. There's no way she could go generations into the future to become Ultimecia. Saying it's Rinoa after time manipulation is just grasping at straws to try and prove a theory that has been disproven by SE.

But I'm sure you'll continue to insist upon it, as you do with most everything regardless of facts, so feel free.

You do not know the facts of Rinoa's future, so before you start spouting off about whose argument is unsupported, perhaps you should consider your own position. I am speculating here, and my speculation is logically justified. If you want to have a full blown argument about the effects of time manipulation, then by all means generate a thread.

If Rinoa ever did obtain the power for time manipulation, she might become corrupted and turn into Ultimecia (Ulcia) in the future, and seek to compress her present time with her past time when she was Rinoa. Since she controls time, killing herself in the past may not have any effect on Ultimecia (if she is Rinoa) because she has stepped outside of the linear time effect. Actually, she would probably want to kill her past self as to safe guard any kind of threat to her current state and power. This explains why Ultimecia nearly caused the death of Rinoa on disk three.

Also, Square has merely stated that sorceresses have normal life spans, and you have assumed through sophistic logic that this proves Ultimecia as an entirely different person from Rinoa.

Lastly, all my arguments are solidly grounded in fact and logic, and if you want to take up anything else I've said on these forums, then by all means do so. I’m always ready to admit to being incorrect or to refine my position if it is met with a greater argument. I'm not stating for sure that Ultimecia is Rinoa- I am merely remarking on the logical possibility of such a thing. Subjects such as time manipulation require an open mind to comprehend new plausibility. imp:

-LYCHON

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Yeah,Ultimecia can not be from the future.
No one would dare call her daughter Ulti after what they saw happening.
Unless of course that you think Ulti is Seifer´s descendant or Biggs descendant or Wedge descendant(in conclusion,any bad guy still alive).

FE's back. Where've you been man? Anyways, it loks like you still haven't given up on your 'Ultimcia is in the past' theory. I won't get into it here. Anyways, I would say that Ultimecia's name is...Ultimecia. She probably changed her name and her name was then lost in history...The history that takes place many years, decades, or even centuries after FF8, FE.

[Sir Bahamut]

You do not know the facts of Rinoa's future, so before you start spouting off about whose argument is unsupported, perhaps you should consider your own position. I am speculating here, and my speculation is logically justified. If you want to have a full blown argument about the effects of time manipulation, then by all means generate a thread.

If Rinoa ever did obtain the power for time manipulation, she might become corrupted and turn into Ultimecia (Ulcia) in the future, and seek to compress her present time with her past time when she was Rinoa. Since she controls time, killing herself in the past may not have any effect on Ultimecia (if she is Rinoa) because she has stepped outside of the linear time effect. Actually, she would probably want to kill her past self as to safe guard any kind of threat to her current state and power. This explains why Ultimecia nearly caused the death of Rinoa on disk three.

Also, Square has merely stated that sorceresses have normal life spans, and you have assumed through sophistic logic that this proves Ultimecia as an entirely different person from Rinoa.

Lastly, all my arguments are solidly grounded in fact and logic, and if you want to take up anything else I've said on these forums, then by all means do so. I’m always ready to admit to being incorrect or to refine my position if it is met with a greater argument. I'm not stating for sure that Ultimecia is Rinoa- I am merely remarking on the logical possibility of such a thing. Subjects such as time manipulation require an open mind to comprehend new plausibility. imp:

-LYCHON

The problem is that your entire argument boils down to this:

If Rinoa gained the ability to travel through time, she could have travelled into the future, become corrupted and turned into Ultimecia

Given the assumption that "Rinoa gains time travel skills", your argument is 'logically justified', but that initial assumption has been pulled out of thin air, and has no basis whatsoever. And since the argument rests on the initial assumption, the entire argument has no basis either.

So we can conclude that Rinoa is still not Ultimecia.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Rinoa=Ultimecia? Who pulled this crap out of their arse?!

[Fantasy Fan]

i know nobody would name their daughter ultemicia because she would be prosecuted before she was even a year old

Edea 2

[Lychon]

The problem is that your entire argument boils down to this:

If Rinoa gained the ability to travel through time, she could have travelled into the future, become corrupted and turned into Ultimecia

Given the assumption that "Rinoa gains time travel skills", your argument is 'logically justified', but that initial assumption has been pulled out of thin air, and has no basis whatsoever. And since the argument rests on the initial assumption, the entire argument has no basis either.

So we can conclude that Rinoa is still not Ultimecia.

I may be harboring bases of assumption, but I was merely trying to portray a logical possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, and I have done so. I was not aiming to prove anything; rather I was making an effort to shake the gridlock of unquestionable certainty about who exactly Ultimecia is and who she is not. This is, after all, Final Fantasy.

Also, my past argument doesn't actually rest entirely on assumptions. I brought up specific examples in the Final Fantasy VIII canon of game play, and further credence may be attached to my suppositions when Rinoa's inherent sorcery is considered.

Lastly, you, as well as I, do not have solid facts of Rinoa's future, so therefore you cannot state, with absolute or even great firmness, that Ultimecia is not Rinoa. Probability may or may not be on your side, but definitude is most surely absent from both our arguments.

-LYCHON

[Kyros]

Rinoa=Ultimecia? Who pulled this crap out of their arse?!

That's what I always say when people keep insisting on it. There can be arguments on both sides with little/no proof with people only going by assumptions and beliefs so I just ignore it all *shrugs*

[Sir Bahamut]

Also, my past argument doesn't actually rest entirely on assumptions. I brought up specific examples in the Final Fantasy VIII canon of game play, and further credence may be attached to my suppositions when Rinoa's inherent sorcery is considered.

I am not familiar with your past arguments, and there are certainly no specific examples in this thread. I am familiar with virtually all the scenes/information in FF8 which have been used as arguments in the R=U debate, and I can think of none which indicate that Rinoa will develop some sort of inherent ability to move through time at will. Not even Ultimecia could do that. She had to rely on the Junction Machine Ellone for her timetravelling. Supposing Rinoa could do more than Ultimecia is not plausible, as Ultimecia has Rinoas powers, and more than that too probably.

However, if you care to repeat your arguments here, I'd be happy to adress them.

Lastly, you, as well as I, do not have solid facts of Rinoa's future, so therefore you cannot state, with absolute or even great firmness, that Ultimecia is not Rinoa. Probability may or may not be on your side, but definitude is most surely absent from both our arguments.

True, 'definitude' is something no one can have seeing as the game stops when it does. Nonetheless, probability and plausibility are on my side. Your claim that Rinoa gains time-travelling capacities is as of yet vastly unfounded, and thus has as much plausibility as any figment of imagination that I can think of happening after the game (like say, Irvine getting a sex-change, becoming a sorceress, and becoming Ultimecia).

Since discussing absolutes is pointless, we have to settle with discussing plausible absolutes, and the plausible absolute is that Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Believing otherwise is (until you show otherwise) means leaving FF8 and entering fan-fiction.

[crazybayman]

Barb.

Here parents named her Barb (short for Barbara), and she named herself Ultimecia upon realizing she was a Sorceress, and became hell-bent on absorbing time.

Wouldn't you do the same if you were named Barb?

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

That's what I always say when people keep insisting on it. There can be arguments on both sides with little/no proof with people only going by assumptions and beliefs so I just ignore it all *shrugs*

Good for you! Keep up the good work!