Fran and Balthier?

[Dynast-Kid]

these guys are way attractive...(have you seen Vaan's bro Reks-he totally looks like a chick!)...but alas...they are nothing more than groups and mounds of pixels...*sheds tear*

[scooby]

I'm posting to say that while I haven't been able to fix the FileFront links (grrrr! ), somebody has uploaded the ending credits onto YouTube - so y'all can view them there, now. It's something, at least....

al-bhed_kid0827: I LOVE your sig!!!

I should really think about getting a Fran/Balthier-related sig....

[Aria28]

I agree with Scooby here, al-bhed_kid0827, your sig is wonderful!

Been catching up on the thread some: I am personally more of a Balthier/Ashe fan, but Fran/Balthier works for me too In the end, I think what's great in that FF is that possible relationships are mostly hinted at, which in a way makes them more interesting, at least to me. And it's perfect for fanfic writing, LOL So many possibilities!

[Dynast-Kid]

Thanks!I got Owen Macwere to make it for me since I don't have the right tools to make my own sigs.

I can't wait for this game to come out!Just like,2 and a half monthes...

['Gilgamesh']

I think they are just really close partners. It kind of reminds me of a Mal and Zoe partnership for those that have seen Firefly.

[Dynast-Kid]

I am personally more of a Balthier/Ashe fan, but Fran/Balthier works for me too In the end, I think what's great in that FF is that possible relationships are mostly hinted at, which in a way makes them more interesting, at least to me. And it's perfect for fanfic writing, LOL So many possibilities!

Hmmm...I never really liked the idea of Ashe/Balthier.Just doesn't work for me.

And you're not alone in your view of relationships.I love hinted at relationships.Especially Paine/Rikku...O_o.So many hints,yet no one else really noticed them.

[Aria28]

I am personally more of a Balthier/Ashe fan, but Fran/Balthier works for me too In the end, I think what's great in that FF is that possible relationships are mostly hinted at, which in a way makes them more interesting, at least to me. And it's perfect for fanfic writing, LOL So many possibilities!

Hmmm...I never really liked the idea of Ashe/Balthier.Just doesn't work for me.

And you're not alone in your view of relationships.I love hinted at relationships.Especially Paine/Rikku...O_o.So many hints,yet no one else really noticed them.

Ooooh, interesting! I'd ask you to develop if we weren't on a FF XII thread, but on a FF X-2 one I'm not usually into f/f or m/m pairings, but getting away from the usual is always nice

[Dynast-Kid]

If you don't like f/f m/m pairings,stay away from www.fanfiction.net.
It's filled to the brim with Sora/Riku yaoi.I stay away from that place now...

Anyway,you've played the game right?Is there really a Fran/Balthier/Ashe love triangle?

[Aria28]

If you don't like f/f m/m pairings,stay away from www.fanfiction.net.
It's filled to the brim with Sora/Riku yaoi.I stay away from that place now...

Anyway,you've played the game right?Is there really a Fran/Balthier/Ashe love triangle?

LOL Well, I don't mind reading them, I've just never been able to write them

Hmmm, well, one thing for sure is that (SPOILER)there is no sense of competition at any point between Fran and Ashe, so it's not formally a love triangle. I imagine that this notion comes from the long and great friendship, as well as the complicity that's so obvious between Fran and Balflear (here I'm sure Scooby would say it's love that's obvious, LOL): there sure is tenderness there, but whether it is love or a beautiful friendship is never clear. I know there are tender gestures between them, but then it's nothing I haven't seen between true friends either

Then there's what's developing between Ashe and Balflear, although I don't think it could possibly be love, at least not until the very end, but even that is very debatable. Balflear sure goes to great lengths to help her "cut her ties from the past" that prevent her from taking the right decision. You understand at one point that at first it was for personal reasons as well, but not only, and he feels very comfortable with her towards the last third of the story: to say she's her love interest in the game would be too much of a stretch though. Ashe sure cares for him a lot in the end, and my interpretation is that she's at least a little infatuated with him. Whether he does reprociate the feeling at this point is impossible to tell - there's no clear sign that could be interpreted in that way. Unless you give a certain meaning to the whole ring subplot - I have a friend who's got a wonderful theory about it, LOL

Also, something interesting is that when the whole party stands together in a given situation, Balflear either stands by Fran or by Ashe, and that's pretty much 50/50, at least in the last third.

In the end, I think the writers of the story deliberately left things open for interpretation, and that you see what you want to see between Fran and Balflear on one hand, and Balflear and Ashe on the other, interprete the various signals the way you want. But if you're 100% objective, there's no clear hint one way or the other. The only thing that's clear is that they greatly care for each other

Now, like I've said here and elsewhere, I certainly am more of a Balflear/Ashe shipper, but that's in terms of potential and because that's the relationship I'd be most interested in writing about, but I doesn't mean I think that, in the game, they are an item. I rather like the way things are



Now of course, I cannot possible say if that will apply to the translation. Change a few words or tone of voice used, and things can take a whole other meaning

[Dynast-Kid]

Hmmm...

Maybe the NA version will feature a love triangle...

[scooby]

Is there really a Fran/Balthier/Ashe love triangle?

Hmmm, well, one thing for sure is that (SPOILER)there is no sense of competition at any point between Fran and Ashe, so it's not formally a love triangle.

...Except for when (SPOILER)Fran asks Balthier what it's like to have a "second woman" (which implicitly implies that she is his woman, to begin with) - an obvious reference to Ashe. This elicits an irritable "baka!" ("fool", if you don't know) from Balthier, as though the mere suggestion that he could love any woman other than Fran is preposterous.

I also detected some hostility towards Ashe, coming from Fran, in several scenes.

(SPOILER)I imagine that this notion comes from the long and great friendship, as well as the complicity that's so obvious between Fran and Balflear (here I'm sure Scooby would say it's love...

(SPOILER)And you would argue that it's *not* love...?! What else could it be...?

Balthier and Fran are both completely estranged from their families. They are both outcasts. All they have is each other. They have become each other's family; each other's home; each other's everything. How can what is between them *not* be described as love...?

And let me ask you this: who does Balthier love *more* than Fran...? Is there anyone *else* whom he loves...? I don't think so.... I think that Fran is both the person whom he loves the *most* - and the *only* person whom he loves. To say that he loves Ashe would be preposterous! He is attracted to her, at most.

(SPOILER)...there sure is tenderness there, but whether it is love or a beautiful friendship is never clear.

...It can't be both...?

(SPOILER)I know there are tender gestures between them, but then it's nothing I haven't seen between true friends, either.

Riiight.... Because what's a little breast-grabbing between friends!? :riiight:

(SPOILER)Then there's what's developing between Ashe and Balflear, although I don't think it could possibly be love, at least not until the very end, but even that is very debatable. Balflear sure goes to great lengths to help her "cut her ties to the past", that prevent her from taking the right decision. You understand at one point that at first it was for personal reasons as well, but not only, and he feels very comfortable with her towards the last third of the story...

I'd say that's an enormous exaggeration. (SPOILER)Vaan shows far more concern for Ashe, and has a better understanding of what she's going through. Balthier is often extremely insensitive to her, e.g., when the group were addressing the Marquis, and he was prattling on about "fresh clothing", blithely oblivious to Ashe's distress - which Vaan (and Penelo) had picked up on. Vaan and Ashe have several soul-searching conversations - while she and Balthier only have one. Their talk on the bridge, under the stars (forgotten the name of the location), is particularly poignant - and an important scene for both characters. In fact, if I didn't find it so implausible (but no more implausible than I find Ashe/Balthier), I would probably ship Ashe/Vaan.

(SPOILER)...to say she's her love interest in the game would be too much of a stretch though.

Huh?! "She's her love interest"...?!

(SPOILER)Ashe sure cares for him a lot in the end, and my interpretation is that she's at least a little infatuated with him.

(SPOILER)Ashe fancies him. So does Penelo, IMO. So do I. He's hot stuff. End of.

But, Fran loves him. She loves him enough to plead with him to leave her behind, and to save himself, when she is stricken by the Mist.... She loves him enough to sever ties with her family and friends, and to willingly give up some of her innate Viera abilities to be with him....

(SPOILER)Whether he does reciprocate the feeling at this point is impossible to tell - there's no clear sign that could be interpreted in that way.

(SPOILER)I'm sure he finds her attractive; he's got eyes, after all. But there are two things that make Balthier who he is, two things that are of the utmost importance to him: Fran, and sky piracy - both of which he would have to forsake in order to be with Ashe. He has made it clear that he is not willing to forsake either thing - EVER! He is sky pirate to the bone, and Fran is his everything.

But, even if, hypothetically speaking, he were to make these enormous sacrifices, he still couldn't be with Ashe - because, relative to her, he is a commoner. Ashe must marry a member of the nobility. And Ashe would never abdicate her throne; she has made it clear that, the most important thing to her is to be a good queen to her people. So...Ashe/Balthier just ain't gonna happen.

By the end of the game, the party members have all gone their separate ways: Fran and Balthier are together, Vaan and Penelo are together, Basch is together with Larsa, and Ashe is all alone - removed from the rest - a lonely queen, looking out from her balcony....

People become attracted to other people; it happens all the time.... But, not all attractions develop into relationships.... Not every attraction has to go somewhere.... That's all there is between Ashe and Balthier: an unfulfilled attraction.

(SPOILER)Unless you give a certain meaning to the whole ring subplot - I have a friend who's got a wonderful theory about it, LOL

...Theory?

(SPOILER)Balthier demanded that Ashe pawn her wedding ring, until she could find something else to offer him and Fran, as payment for their services. When Balthier posted the ring back to her, Ashe was delighted - because it was all she had left of her dead husband (whom she did love).

I don't see what else there is to it....

(SPOILER)Also, something interesting is that when the whole party stands together in a given situation, Balflear either stands by Fran or by Ashe, and that's pretty much 50/50, at least in the last third.

(SPOILER)Uh, no. He almost always stands beside Fran. I noticed that, during group scenes, they always stand off to one side. Even when Balthier goes to check the body of a dead Judge, Fran accompanies him. They're, like, inseparable.

[Dynast-Kid]

Hmmm...Interesting stuff.

Uhhh,scooby.Did you get your hands on a copy of FFXII?

[Aria28]

Is there really a Fran/Balthier/Ashe love triangle?

Hmmm, well, one thing for sure is that (SPOILER)there is no sense of competition at any point between Fran and Ashe, so it's not formally a love triangle.

...Except for when (SPOILER)Fran asks Balthier what it's like to have a "second woman" (which implicitly implies that she is his woman, to begin with) - an obvious reference to Ashe. This elicits an irritable "baka!" ("fool", if you don't know) from Balthier, as though the mere suggestion that he could love any woman other than Fran is preposterous.

I also detected some hostility towards Ashe, coming from Fran, in several scenes.

Well, like I said, I think that it is more about (SPOILER)what we want to read into their relationships than about what there is clearly there. It will be interesting to see what the translation will be like (i.e. if there is something clearer in that respect) and what people who haven't played it yet will make of it.....

Oh, and could you give me the sentence in japanese re: what Fran says? Because I don't ever remember her telling quite that (although I remember the one from Balflear - hard to forget *g*) - now of course, my japanese isn't perfect and I may have missunderstood it- would be easier to understand if I have it written

EDIT: Found that sentence again! You mean (SPOILER) once they both are back in the Bahamut Fortress to repair it and after debris have fallen, right? She says "Nimaime wa taihen ne, Barafurea" - which you could translate into: "It's hard to be a playboy, isn't it, Balflear?" (she doesn't say "second woman", if that's the sentence you were refering to - I imagine it's the "ni" of "nimaime", which alone reads as "two", that could make think that. "Nimaime" is a term used for an actor who plays love interest in a story, i.e. a handsome man, if I'm not mistaking). To which he replies "Baka" - "Idiot". Btw, baka can be an endearing term to say "idiot" (Penelo uses it with Vaan a lot), especially the way he says it: he's not revolted by what she says, LOL To me, she sounds everything but jealous, actually, she's clearly teasing him, and he's not irritated, but amused. Just watch the scene again - maybe you hadn't seen it in a long time? I know I needed to refresh my memory as well, LOL

Now of course, you could certainly interpret things in your way, with her hitting at the fact that Ashe fancies/loves/is infatuated with/whatever him, to which he replies Baka to say "Idiot, it's only you I love". But you'll have to admit, it's only one possibility, i.e. he doesn't actually say that, it just may be implied. The first time I saw this scene, I was more under the impression he was saying "baka" because she's saying such a thing in the difficult position they are in, which is pretty funny. But then that's also only an interpretation

Hence my opinion that (SPOILER)things are only hinted at in this game, and that room is left for interpretation. It's not about being right or wrong, but about perceiving things a certain way

(SPOILER)I imagine that this notion comes from the long and great friendship, as well as the complicity that's so obvious between Fran and Balflear (here I'm sure Scooby would say it's love...

(SPOILER)And you would argue that it's *not* love...?! What else could it be...?

Balthier and Fran are both completely estranged from their families. They are both outcasts. All they have is each other. They have become each other's family; each other's home; each other's everything. How can what is between them *not* be described as love...?

Yes, it may not: all this doesn't always leads to something romantic between people in real life (SPOILER) People can have great complicity, great friendship, know each other by heart, better than anybody else; it's most probably the case between Balflear and Fran; yet those people don't always fall in love. In fact, you may or not have experienced that but, sometimes, by becoming too good friends, nothing romantic can develop anymore. Now I'm not saying this is necessarily the case here, but again, not all this is the surest way to romance

(SPOILER)And let me ask you this: who does Balthier love *more* than Fran...? Is there anyone *else* whom he loves...? I don't think so.... I think that Fran is both the person whom he loves the *most* - and the *only* person whom he loves. To say that he loves Ashe would be preposterous! He is attracted to her, at most.

LOL Read my previous post again, and you'll see that I clearly wrote that (SPOILER)"Then there's what's developing between Ashe and Balflear, although I don't think it could possibly be love, at least not until the very end, but even that is very debatable. Balflear sure goes to great lengths to help her "cut her ties from the past" that prevent her from taking the right decision. You understand at one point that at first it was for personal reasons as well, but not only, and he feels very comfortable with her towards the last third of the story: to say she's her love interest in the game would be too much of a stretch though

I think I was being clear enough on the Balflear/Ashe issue, don't you think? Again, and I repeat, my interest in their pairing to me is mostly from a writing/creating point of view. I'm not threatening your point of view here in any way, so you can relax, LOL

(SPOILER)Also.....friendship is another form of love. What we're debatting here is a love with a romantic undercurrent. I can definitely agree with you that he loves her dearly. But then I love my best friend dearly too, and there's little I wouldn't do for him; yet I am not in love with my him. That's the line.

My whole point is that I honestly cannot tell on which side of the line they are. I am not questionning how much they care for each other, but the nature of that feeling. You see them on one side, and I can definitely live with it, but personally, I don't, not from what I saw within the game

And yes, it can be both. But maybe it isn't And as for the pic you're referring to, that's more playful than anything else, really, LOL

(SPOILER)Then there's what's developing between Ashe and Balflear, although I don't think it could possibly be love, at least not until the very end, but even that is very debatable. Balflear sure goes to great lengths to help her "cut her ties to the past", that prevent her from taking the right decision. You understand at one point that at first it was for personal reasons as well, but not only, and he feels very comfortable with her towards the last third of the story...

I'd say that's an enormous exaggeration. (SPOILER)Vaan shows far more concern for Ashe, and has a better understanding of what she's going through. Balthier is often extremely insensitive to her, e.g., when the group were addressing the Marquis, and he was prattling on about "fresh clothing", blithely oblivious to Ashe's distress - which Vaan (and Penelo) had picked up on. Vaan and Ashe have several soul-searching conversations - while she and Balthier only have one. Their talk on the bridge, under the stars (forgotten the name of the location), is particularly poignant - and an important scene for both characters. In fact, if I didn't find it so implausible (but no more implausible than I find Ashe/Balthier), I would probably ship Ashe/Vaan.

Ok, we obviously haven't played the same game..........(SPOILER)Vaan and Balflear, as well as Basch, all play their role in Ashe's evolution throughout the game. I don't want to quote the whole game here, but maybe you should think again next time you play it the reasons that motivate what Balflear does, the decisions he takes. If you follow the story carefully, you understand in the end that nothing he does is gratuitous - ever, and that's precisely what makes him stand out as a character, not just in this game, but in the realm of video games in general.

If Balflear had been so insensitive and wouldn't have given her any second thought, how would he have guessed what her next move would be (since Vaan is surprised to see her there, himself hadn't known, and couldn't possibly have told Balflear)? And do you really believe he took her ring just as a payment? Do I have to spell out the reason why, which is the same reason that motivates most of what he does around Ashe? He's hyper aware of her. I'm not saying that in a romantic way, but he understands better than anybody else what really is going on, and where Ashe's feelings are leading her if she keeps being "tied to her past". He does understand that, she has to "see the light" before it's too late and all hell break loose, not just for herself, but for everyone involved. Because of the whole Nethecite affair, he's actually also motivated by his own past experience - hence the urgency. I don't think it's a "knight in shining armor" thing at all, but he understands where are the risks for her, for him, and for everyone involved if she cannot overcome her desires for power and vengeance, and he tries to help her with that

I also firmly believe that they all are true friends when comes the last part of the story, and that's also true for Ashe and Balflear, like it is with the rest of them. You don't win the kind of battles they face in the end if you can't trust the others implicitely

(SPOILER)...to say she's her love interest in the game would be too much of a stretch though.

Huh?! "She's her love interest"...?!

*sigh* read me again, you'll see that I'm saying that (SPOILER)you definitely cannot say that she is his love interest during the game. To spell things more clearly, I don't think he romantically loves her. I do think there's material, and I'm eager to use it, to develop my own storylines in that sense, but no, I don't think they are in love in the game either, although probably one of the rare things I am pretty sure of is that Ashe has feelings for him of a romantic to a certain degree, but I wouldn't call that "love" at this point. Like you said he is hot stuff, but she also recognizes what he's done for her once she's literally gotten rid of the ghosts of her past - I refer here to the scene in the Bahamut Fortress where she almost quotes him from their conversation of Phon Coast to reply to him.

I'm not covering the rest as I would only repeat myself ad nauseam. You have chosen to interpret things a certain way, which is cool, it's great, and it is possible. I have never, ever said the contrary. And you are right, in a way. My point is precisely that (SPOILER)the storyline allows you to interpret things. But we don't have another Tidus-Yuna or Squall-Rinoa, where things are spelled out for you. Also, what happens to them all after the closing scene of the game is not known - it's up to us to decide, if we choose to write, or to the game's writers, if they decide to do a sequel.

I hope now what I tried to express is more understandable

[Guardians]

the only and the only that contain love relationships is Fran/Balfier, in the end of the game, the FMV show that the relationship between they 2 not only parnet.

about Ashe/Fran/Balfier, tjere not such thing about triangle love.... lol


Ashe just want to recover her kingdoms and fight for freedom

if talk about relationship, Vaan and Panelo 's relationships is closer then other

[nobuteru]

Is there really a Fran/Balthier/Ashe love triangle?

Hmmm, well, one thing for sure is that (SPOILER)there is no sense of competition at any point between Fran and Ashe, so it's not formally a love triangle.

...Except for when (SPOILER)Fran asks Balthier what it's like to have a "second woman" (which implicitly implies that she is his woman, to begin with) - an obvious reference to Ashe. This elicits an irritable "baka!" ("fool", if you don't know) from Balthier, as though the mere suggestion that he could love any woman other than Fran is preposterous.

I also detected some hostility towards Ashe, coming from Fran, in several scenes.

(SPOILER)I imagine that this notion comes from the long and great friendship, as well as the complicity that's so obvious between Fran and Balflear (here I'm sure Scooby would say it's love...

(SPOILER)And you would argue that it's *not* love...?! What else could it be...?

Balthier and Fran are both completely estranged from their families. They are both outcasts. All they have is each other. They have become each other's family; each other's home; each other's everything. How can what is between them *not* be described as love...?

And let me ask you this: who does Balthier love *more* than Fran...? Is there anyone *else* whom he loves...? I don't think so.... I think that Fran is both the person whom he loves the *most* - and the *only* person whom he loves. To say that he loves Ashe would be preposterous! He is attracted to her, at most.

(SPOILER)...there sure is tenderness there, but whether it is love or a beautiful friendship is never clear.

...It can't be both...?

(SPOILER)I know there are tender gestures between them, but then it's nothing I haven't seen between true friends, either.

Riiight.... Because what's a little breast-grabbing between friends!? :riiight:

(SPOILER)Then there's what's developing between Ashe and Balflear, although I don't think it could possibly be love, at least not until the very end, but even that is very debatable. Balflear sure goes to great lengths to help her "cut her ties to the past", that prevent her from taking the right decision. You understand at one point that at first it was for personal reasons as well, but not only, and he feels very comfortable with her towards the last third of the story...

I'd say that's an enormous exaggeration. (SPOILER)Vaan shows far more concern for Ashe, and has a better understanding of what she's going through. Balthier is often extremely insensitive to her, e.g., when the group were addressing the Marquis, and he was prattling on about "fresh clothing", blithely oblivious to Ashe's distress - which Vaan (and Penelo) had picked up on. Vaan and Ashe have several soul-searching conversations - while she and Balthier only have one. Their talk on the bridge, under the stars (forgotten the name of the location), is particularly poignant - and an important scene for both characters. In fact, if I didn't find it so implausible (but no more implausible than I find Ashe/Balthier), I would probably ship Ashe/Vaan.

(SPOILER)...to say she's her love interest in the game would be too much of a stretch though.

Huh?! "She's her love interest"...?!

(SPOILER)Ashe sure cares for him a lot in the end, and my interpretation is that she's at least a little infatuated with him.

(SPOILER)Ashe fancies him. So does Penelo, IMO. So do I. He's hot stuff. End of.

But, Fran loves him. She loves him enough to plead with him to leave her behind, and to save himself, when she is stricken by the Mist.... She loves him enough to sever ties with her family and friends, and to willingly give up some of her innate Viera abilities to be with him....

(SPOILER)Whether he does reciprocate the feeling at this point is impossible to tell - there's no clear sign that could be interpreted in that way.

(SPOILER)I'm sure he finds her attractive; he's got eyes, after all. But there are two things that make Balthier who he is, two things that are of the utmost importance to him: Fran, and sky piracy - both of which he would have to forsake in order to be with Ashe. He has made it clear that he is not willing to forsake either thing - EVER! He is sky pirate to the bone, and Fran is his everything.

But, even if, hypothetically speaking, he were to make these enormous sacrifices, he still couldn't be with Ashe - because, relative to her, he is a commoner. Ashe must marry a member of the nobility. And Ashe would never abdicate her throne; she has made it clear that, the most important thing to her is to be a good queen to her people. So...Ashe/Balthier just ain't gonna happen.

By the end of the game, the party members have all gone their separate ways: Fran and Balthier are together, Vaan and Penelo are together, Basch is together with Larsa, and Ashe is all alone - removed from the rest - a lonely queen, looking out from her balcony....

People become attracted to other people; it happens all the time.... But, not all attractions develop into relationships.... Not every attraction has to go somewhere.... That's all there is between Ashe and Balthier: an unfulfilled attraction.

(SPOILER)Unless you give a certain meaning to the whole ring subplot - I have a friend who's got a wonderful theory about it, LOL

...Theory?

(SPOILER)Balthier demanded that Ashe pawn her wedding ring, until she could find something else to offer him and Fran, as payment for their services. When Balthier posted the ring back to her, Ashe was delighted - because it was all she had left of her dead husband (whom she did love).

I don't see what else there is to it....

(SPOILER)Also, something interesting is that when the whole party stands together in a given situation, Balflear either stands by Fran or by Ashe, and that's pretty much 50/50, at least in the last third.

(SPOILER)Uh, no. He almost always stands beside Fran. I noticed that, during group scenes, they always stand off to one side. Even when Balthier goes to check the body of a dead Judge, Fran accompanies him. They're, like, inseparable.

it's been awhile since i've checked up on this thread...but as usual scooby seems to be doing a marvelous job of manning things...