Jenova & Sephiroth

[Griff]

Like has been said before, the writer's are going to tell the people what they want if it will help business. Since a vast majority of fans want to believe that emo momma's boy is the greatest villian of all time, the idea of him being controlled would tarnish his image, and alot of people don't want that. If the people aren't led to believe afterwards that Sephy was the main villian, then sales of AC, BC, CC, and DC will drop because ff7 has the largest fanboy totals in the world, and if they don't get what they want, you just know alot of them are going to boycott the other projects.

I think it's rather sad. At first, I just thought that you were misguided and misinformed, since you tried throwing non-existent plot holes about the game around, but now it's quite clear that you're another of the 'anti-everything FFVII' camp. You don't give the game any credits, you don't give the main villain any credit, you don't give any of it's fans any credit, and you don't even give the game writer's any credit.

Like I said, I think it's rather sad...

I think it's rather sad that you've already started on the petty insults. It usually takes a few pages for that to happen in these kinds of debates. As for my "non-existant plot holes", I just use the ones I find to be most discussed on internet forums such as this one. So far your best excuses to them have been, someone must have recovered Masamune from the Lifestream and used it to kill the president (i might add you conveniently dodged my point on Sephiroth being the only one able to use the blade, as said directly in the game), Weapon attacked Mideel because all humans were seen as harming the planet (so apparently killing off a town of 15 people does more good for the planet than taking out who knows how many in places like Gold Saucer)
and Sephiroth's will took control of Jenova and broke out of ShinRa (hense the whole argument in this thread). Alot of the things you've said about who did what in this game as been simple theories. Let me explain something to you. When an element of the story cannot be directly proven by any means other than theories, it is a PLOT HOLE . And also, incase you didn't notice in the other thread we were in, I listed FF7 as being just as good a game as all the other Final Fantasies other than FF2. I loved this game, I just call things as I see them. I'm not "anti-everything FF7". I give the game credit where it deserves. Just because I don't like Sephiroth doesn't mean I don't give him credit as a main villian. I never said he wasn't. Sin is the main villian in FFX but it's still being controlled. Why is it so hard to believe that it could be the same case for Sephy? I don't give any credit to the fan(boy/girl)s of the game because they refuse to look at the story rationally and logically, and quite frankly they won't care about what I say anyways, so why should I give them credit? And as for the writers, take it from someone who has been studying business his whole life, if anything is going to help a company make money, as long as it's legal, anyone working for the company is going to exploit it as best they can. It may not always be the most honest practice, but it is one of the most common.

[Amaru]

In case you hadn't noticed, which you obviously haven't, your emo momma's boy and fanboys comments were what started the petty insults.

I never said someone recovered the Masamune. I said that Sephiroth recovered his own weapon. Sephiroth took control of Jenova's body to gain a physical form. Which part of this do you not quite understand?

Weapon attacked indescriminately. Look up the word in the dictionary. It didn't matter who or where it was attacking. The fact was, humanity itself was seen as a huge threat to the Planet. This isn't a theory here, it's stated explicitely within the game itself.

Sephiroth gaining control of Jenova is seen countless times within the game, not to mention, explained again and again in countless official places, that you keep ignoring by making up a really petty excuse by saying that they are pandering to the fans. Seriously, how petty can you get?

Lastly. Just take a look at the guide itself. You can continue not to believe in one shred of it all you like, but it's official and it's explained within the game itself if you look. So go cry, whine, or whatever else you want to do. It's official, it's explained, it's no plot hole.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

[Griff]

In case you hadn't noticed, which you obviously haven't, your emo momma's boy and fanboys comments were what started the petty insults.

Fanboy- One who follows a belief of the greatness of their affection, despite any proof against it.
This isn't always a bad thing, never said it was, hence it was never meant as an insult. The truth is that FF7 most likely does have the highest concentration of fanboys within the video game world, ones that follow their beliefs. This is all I stated.

As for the emo momma's boy comment, if the real Sephiroth is reading this and is insulted by that comment. PM me and I will personally apoligize.

I never said someone recovered the Masamune. I said that Sephiroth recovered his own weapon. Sephiroth took control of Jenova's body to gain a physical form. Which part of this do you not quite understand?

Well if Sephiroth needed a physical body to do all of these things, he would have obviously needed one to transport the Masamune. Yet, according to you at least, it was Sephiroth's will controlling Jenova, so that doesn't explain how the blade got there.

Weapon attacked indescriminately. Look up the word in the dictionary. It didn't matter who or where it was attacking. The fact was, humanity itself was seen as a huge threat to the Planet. This isn't a theory here, it's stated explicitely within the game itself.

If they're attacking everywhere indescriminately (adj. Not making or based on careful distinctions; unselective) what were they doing during the bulk of disk two, just sitting around? These things have to power to wipe out humanity in a matter of days and yet through the course of the game they get to three places? I'm fairly sure these things would be on instinct to get the job done quick to protect the planet.

Sephiroth gaining control of Jenova is seen countless times within the game, not to mention, explained again and again in countless official places, that you keep ignoring by making up a really petty excuse by saying that they are pandering to the fans. Seriously, how petty can you get?

Yes, business strategy is a really petty excuse :rolleyes2 . Look, whether you like to admit it or not, Square is just like any other company. And the fact of the matter is that if people don't like what is being sold then they won't buy it. As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

[Zeromus_X]

Holy Bejebus, wow. Well, we all have different hobbies.

Anyway, now I'm sure that those Ultimania Guides would be a good idea to translate. At any rate...

As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

This is true. This is also why arguing about it is a waste of time. But, to each our own.

[Amaru]

As for the emo momma's boy comment, if the real Sephiroth is reading this and is insulted by that comment. PM me and I will personally apoligize.

Sarcasm really isn't your forte.

Well if Sephiroth needed a physical body to do all of these things, he would have obviously needed one to transport the Masamune. Yet, according to you at least, it was Sephiroth's will controlling Jenova, so that doesn't explain how the blade got there.

I can't believe that you are trying to argue such a trivial point, it really does amaze me and show me exactly where you stand on things.

It doesn't? What, do I need to draw a line from A to B for you? Do you even enjoy Final Fantasy games, because they surely do not do that for you. Let me explain this to you slowly. Sephiroth needed a physical body. With me so far? Sephiroth's will was sent out to Jenova's body, which was in stasis in Shinra HQ. Ok, stay with me here. He gained control of her, awakening her, and transfered her form into his own image. So he gained a physical body.

What part of this do you still not understand. He had a physical body. Weilding the masamune was not a problem.

Yes, business strategy is a really petty excuse :rolleyes2 . Look, whether you like to admit it or not, Square is just like any other company. And the fact of the matter is that if people don't like what is being sold then they won't buy it.

Jesus, if you can't see how petty you sound, then God help us all. You're stating that all FFVII fans are wrong, have been wrong all these years, because they have been lied to about the truth, a truth - I might add - that you yourself think you are right in. Dude, look up the word petty. If at any point it was being used in it's correct form, it's here. :rolleyes2

As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

Except, what you keep ignoring, time and time again, is that the game never acknowledges Jenova as the main villain and the one that the group is fighting, and what you keep ignoring is the official stance on the subject. Did the last part of my post just fly right over your head? Not that I didn't expect you to try and ignore it, because it alone counters everything that you could possibly come up with - that's why you're trying to undermine it's officialness just to suit your own believes and need. Like I said, petty.

Keep ignoring the guide, keep ignoring official stances on the subject, keeping ignoring the majority of fans and ingame events - and just believe that you are right. Wow. It's funny that you mention fanboy at the beginning of your post, though the definition that you stated seems to fit you like a glove. Following your believes ... despite all the proof that goes against it...

Anyway, now I'm sure that those Ultimania Guides would be a good idea to translate.

Is the last part of my post invisible? I posted the link to a translation of the Guide.

[Zeromus_X]

Oh crap, sorry. Thank you though, I've always wanted to see a translation...

Edit: Then...there really shouldn't be any argument, now. xD

[Elpizo]

Excuse me? When did I hail the game as the best? When did I hail Sephiroth as the greatest villain of all time? When did I hail FFVII fans as the best group out there? The only insight into myself that you have here is me defending the game against people making up plot holes and denying the main villain.

Next time perhaps you should read posts properly before being so judgemental about people.

Well, if you don't see VII as the best game out there, then why bother discussing this whole thing? Let people with different opinions say there stuff, if you disagree, say so, but then just leave it. It's not like he's going to change his mind, nor are you.

And about the Main Villain. Well, Sephiroth ACTS throughout the whole game. Yes, it's his desire to become a God and all the other psyco stuff. But it all fits kinda well in Jenova's plan. Jenova is behind teh scenes, just finishing what she started a long, long time ago.

And every game has plot holes. Well, almost everygame.

ANd now you are stating that I can't read. Hey, I read this whole threat full of good points to point out you are wrong. But you also have that one vission: "Sephiroth is the Main Villain! Nobody tyouches that idea!"
Perhaps he was. A main villain puppet.

EDIT:
Heck, Kuja is the main villain all the time in IX, yet you fight Necron as the Final Boss. ExDeath is teh villain all teh time in V, yet you fight the incarnation of the void, NeoExDeath, in the end. Jenova needn't be the Final Boss to be the Main Villain, at work behind the scenes.

[Amaru]

What every one of you continues to do is ignore the Ulti-Guide. Go read it. Then keep telling me that 'it was all Jenovas plans'. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's official.

[Griff]

Weilding the masamune was not a problem.

Except of course for my main point, the blade had no way of getting to ShinRa HQ.

[Elpizo]

What every one of you continues to do is ignore the Ulti-Guide. Go read it. Then keep telling me that 'it was all Jenovas plans'. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's official.

Hmm... Against such an argument, I cannot win. I accept my defeat at your hands.

Guess Seph was controlling his momy after all...
Still, the true villain of VII was Meteor. :rolleyes2

[Amaru]

Thank you, Elpizo. I'm glad that you took the time to look at the official guide. Though of course, some others have now turned this into a debate that such official sources can't be trusted. *Sigh*

Anyway, this is my final post in this thread. Everything that needs to be said, has been said, and more importantly, all the information to every question can be found in the guide itself. If anyone doesn't want to read or believe in it, then so be it, but it's all there.

[Wuggly Blight]

Offical as in, Endorced by Square with permission... Not all the material in the thing came from the writers of the game.

[Griff]

Offical as in, Endorced by Square with permission... Not all the material in the thing came from the writers of the game.

exactly

[Forsaken Lover]

l

ay the game. Sephiroth barely, and I mean barely new Cloud. After wandering in the Lifestream and absorbing the knowledge and wisdom of the ancients, when he finally started projecting himself back out into the World once more, he didn't instantly recognise Cloud. It was Zack who he had the major fight with, Cloud just came up behind and stabbed him.

You forget that Cloud ran up and Sephiroth turned, stabbed him and looked right into his face. At this point, Cloud gained a surge of adreniline and hurled him into the Reactor. Sephiroth was looking straight into the face of the man who had pretty much brought about his "death." You wouldn't remember that, yet he would remember everything else?

The Jenova Reunion is an instinctive process. It's a natural instinct for all the cells to be reunited. All the people in black were heading towards Sephiroth, not Jenova herself, because he was in control.

Maybe you could do as you say and "read the whole post?" The Reunion is an instinct, but Sephiroth has NO USE for it. He wants the Black Materia. He doesn't need the clones all flocking to him. He doesn't have to kill them all once they get there. The fact is, Sephiroth is the highest concentration of Jenova cells outside of Jenova herself. Also, her head is with him. So, going there was a process conceived by jenova as indicated by "Sephiroth" killing the clones.

What? Sephiroth never revived the body of Jenova. That was her own doing. And that's exactly what he did. He manipulated Cloud into getting the Black Materia for him, and then to hand it over towards the end of the game, so I have no idea what you mean there.

I am saying that Jenova awoke and took on the guise of Sephiroth on her own. It happened at the exact time Cloud was near her. Sephiroth doesn't manipulate Cloud. Jenova does because Jenova can. "Because...you are a puppet." Just like Sephiroth. Look "Sephiroth's" perplexity of Cloud's expression of emotion in City of the Ancients. He has his arms raised, grandiose-style and after hearing Cloud speak about how he feels, he looks down and shows suprised at this. Sephiroth KNOWS Cloud is not just a construction of Hojo's but Jenova does not.

Jenova's plan was never to use the Lifestream and become a God. Never. Not once in the entire game is there a quote or instance to prove this. She just wanted to destroy the Planet and use it as a vessel to head to over far-off Planets and destroy them. This was why she summoned Meteor all those years before. Sephiroth used her original idea and expanded upon it. Knowing the Lifestream energy that would surface in such a catastrophic event, he could merge with it and become a God.

...wrong and wrong.

A. Jenova didn't summon Meteor. She was the object that struck the Planet and left the wound.
B. I never said her plan was to become a god. Her plan is to destroy but she has adopted a Sephiroth persona, in accordance with her skill to replicate mind and body of another. If it is Sephiroth's mind she has constructed to fit her form, then his deluded thoughts would include becoming a god but this is not the actual Sephiroth, as already stated. It's a construct of Jenova's, a false persona of Sephiroth's.

And you say that his Godhood wouldn't last long, but you are forgetting that aspects of the story (like Jenova and the Cetra) expand beyond the Planet. Sephiroth's Godhood could have seen him God of the universe. He didn't give a damn about that Planet and what happened to it.

God of the universe, what? The Planet is the lifeblood he's sucking up to gain power. If the Planet is destroyed, the lifeblood goes bye-bye and so does his source of power. No godhood, only his demise.

No one said that Sephiroth himself possessed mind-altering powers. He used [b]Jenova's influence[b], to use the cells within Cloud to manipulate him.

Then again, why does he not know Cloud? Why does he simply call him a clone when the real Sephiroth knew Cloud was a real person all along? I'll tell you why. Sephiroth wasn't using the Jenova cells to control Cloud. JENOVA was using the Jenova cells to control Cloud. Amazing concept.

And there is hardly any mention of Sephiroth's will in Advent Children. It's Jenova's will as Kadaj and the rest REPEATEDLY say. It was all up to what Jenova chose. Sephiroth is at best a side-character

[gyaku_zuki]

agrees entirely with the above. I think your calm, uninsulting, rational approach to the topic is much better than the tempered, insulting, flaming view other have expressed.

I agree strongly that AC shows that Jenova is still wielding her influence, as all the silver-hairs refer to her being the main factor. They even CRY for her! Why would Sephiroth cause them this?

Yet again, AC reinforces the whole Jenova Reunion thing, the theory put forward by Hojo and Gast that any separation of Jenova cells will eventually cause a reformation. This is still the theme of AC and of 7 in general, thus it is Jenova's influence that overrules the entire story. If Sephiroth overpowered Jenova, what further use would the reunion form? He would have no reason to continue it, unless he also wants to restore Jenova, thus making him slave to its influence yet again.