Jenova & Sephiroth

[Amaru]

That's my entire point. The quote does not give any reason why Hojo gave him a number like the other clones. He did not brand any other experiment except the Sephiroth clones. My theory explains both why he has it and why he never shows any signs of being like the rest...that is, if you read it. Again, my theories go beyond what the guide says and actually offers a complete explanation of events whereas the guide seems to pick what it will explaina nd then not do it very well.

Oh, so one minute you're using the guide to backup what you're saying, and when proven wrong, you're once again denouncing the guide. Jesus Christ man.

And let me prove you wrong yet again on something. Cloud was a Sephiroth experiment. A failed experiment. He was never branded with a tattoo. Oh wait, Zack was also involved in the Sephiroth experiment. He was never branded with a tattoo. And yet, we're supposed to believe, in your theory, that Red XIII simply having a tattoo makes him a Sephiroth clone and involved in the experiments? When Cloud and Zack didn't?

[Forsaken Lover]

No, I do not discount the guide because it proves me wrong. I had the thought of Red XIII long before I knew of this guide.

And, stop with the pointless facts. They don't help you at all. Zack and Cloud received no numbers because they were thought of as failures. It has nothing to do with the current colection of people with the number tattoos.

And, if you and your guide are oh so clever and the word of the land, why does Red XIII have a tattoo if he's not a member of the Sephiroth clone project? Why does his tatoo bear the number thirteen? Why does this tattoo correlate with the project? I guess we'll have to go with the guide and what you say and accept it as just a COINCIDENCE and not give it any meaning or explanation.

[Amaru]

No, I do not discount the guide because it proves me wrong. I had the thought of Red XIII long before I knew of this guide.

And, stop with the pointless facts. They don't help you at all. Zack and Cloud received no numbers because they were thought of as failures. It has nothing to do with the current colection of people with the number tattoos.

And, if you and your guide are oh so clever and the world of the land, why does Red XIII have a tatoo if he's not a member of the Sephiroth clone project? Why does his tatoo bear the number thirteen? Why does this tatto correlate witht he project? I guess we'll have to go with the guide and what you say and accept it as just a COINCIDENCE and not give it any meaning or explanation.

Pointless facts? Zack and Cloud, Sephiroth experiments, having no tattoos, is seen by you as a pointless fact. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post with such a stupid statement like that...

[Forsaken Lover]

You really are not helping your case. I asked you to explain why the guide and you think that Red XIII has a tattoo that relates with those involved in the clone project and not actually be part of it. You are just now grabbing onto a handy excuse not to reply to that. I stated Cloud and Zack had no numbers because in this subject, is does not matter. They were cast out of the project. We're discussing the people in it, with the tattoos and focussing on Red XIII. Cloud and Zack not having a number tatto is irrelevent.

[Amaru]

You really are not helping your case. I asked you to explain why the guide and you think that Red XIII has a tattoo that relates with those involved in the clone project and not actually be part of it. You are just now grabbing onto a handy excuse not to reply to that. I stated Cloud and Zack had no numbers because in this subject, is does not matter. They were cast out of the project. We're discussing the people in it, with the tattoos and focussing on Red XIII. Cloud and Zack not having a number tatto is irrelevent.

Handy excuse? When you call solid, in-game fact as 'pointless', it just shows even more how wrong you are. Cloud and Zack were not cast out of the project, they escaped. There was no reason not to brand them during the initial stages of the experiments, unless branding alone simply doesn't mean that you were part of the Sephiroth Clone experiment.

And here's some more in-game fact that you continued to ignore from before. Red XIII's fate was never in the experiment. He was involved in another experiment to preserve and procreate so as to expand his and Aeris' 'species'. Once again, there is no evidence in the game that Red XIII had Jenova cells, that he was part of that experiment, and that he was ever influenced or could be influenced. You have 0 evidence to support anything that you've said.

So what's the reason for the numbers? Hojo probably started numbering his experiments so that he could start keeping better track of them. Again, not that they were all part of the same experiment.

[Forsaken Lover]

Again, wrong. You like bold, so you have 0 evidence Hojo started just randomly numbering all his experiments. You have 0 evidence Red XIII was involved in nothing but Hojo's project to preserve endangered species. He had just started that project when we got there and we have no idea how long Red XIII was held by Hojo. You are pulling more stuff out of nothing. You are saying he JUST has a number for...no reason? W KNOW for a fact that the people involved in the experiment had a number. RED XIII has a number. Both facts. You can't dispute that. Why does he have one? Why are we not told anything else about other experiments having numbers? We are presented with two very clear facts. What you are saying is in fact conjecture, not fact at all. Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here. He has a number. They have a number. 1+1=2.

[Amaru]

You have 0 evidence Red XIII was involved in nothing but Hojo's project to preserve endangered species.

The game never once says he was involved in any other experiment, and we never witness Jenova or Sephiroth having any influence in him, or that he ever possesses Jenova cells. There's my evidence. That tattoo alone proves nothing to the contrary.

He had just started that project when we got there and we have no idea how long Red XIII was held by Hojo. You are pulling more stuff out of nothing. You are saying he JUST has a number for...no reason? W KNOW for a fact that the people involved in the experiment had a number.

Once again, Cloud and Zack were involved in the experiment and they didn't have a number. Stop ignoring them.

Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here.

And there you have it. No matter what is said, and what evidence is brought against you, that's what it all comes down to. So why are you even asking for a debate and counter to what you are stating?

[Forsaken Lover]

These aren't my own ideas. These are facts from the game, as stated. He has a tattoo and so do all the others. You know that. You can't say it's absolutely nothing and not elaborate on that. I say it does mean something, that it wasn't just there for the hell of it. I give an explanation of why. Does the guide? Do you? I don't believe so.

And, I'm not ignoring the fact Zack and Cloud didn't have them. This has to do with people WHO DO HAVE THEM. That's the clones and Red XIII. Cloud and Zack are not important as of this discussion.

Forgive me, but I just can't swallow the notion Red has a tat and the clones have a tat and it's brought up and it's neve rsaid why..... I guess the creators just thought it be fun to give him one.

[Amaru]

These aren't my own ideas. These are facts from the game, as stated.

Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII was part of the Sephiroth clone experiment?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII has Jenova cells?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII felt the pull of Jenova?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII went mad like the other clones?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII followed the other clones so as to unite with the others with Jenova cells?

That's right, nowhere. But what is explicitely stated in the game, is that Hojo wanted him alive to expand his and Aeris' species. Being part of the Sephiroth clone experiment wouldn't achieve that.

And, I'm not ignoring the fact Zack and Cloud didn't have them. This has to do with people WHO DO HAVE THEM. That's the clones and Red XIII. Cloud and Zack are not important as of this discussion.

How in the world are they not relevant to this discussion? I'm sorry, but I'm struggling, I really am, to see how you can discount them. This is to do with you saying that Red XIII has Jenova Cells, your only reason for this, since there is no other evidence in the game, because he has a tattoo. Guess what - Cloud and Zack don't.

No matter how many times you try and dismiss them, they instantly crumble your weak argument.

[Forsaken Lover]

When in the game is it stated Red XIII is not part of the Sephiroth clone project?
When in the game is it said he doesn't have Jenova Cells?

The fact is, you are discounting the single fact. FACT. He has a tatoo. FACT. The other clones have tattoos. So, you can't accept that? You refuse to see any connection? You can't and apparently will not explain why he has it and we are presented with the fact all the clones have it. Yes, all the clones do have it because they wer epart of the experiment. They were kept in the experiment. Cloud and Zack were not because a) they were failures and b) they escaped. Red XIII has a tattoo of a number, just like all the other "successful" clones. That is fact and fact can not be twisted. You seemingly can not accept the fact he has it and that obviously means something. It's not jus THERE.

As to him not showing signs of Jenova's influence, you seem to not even be capable of accepting another's viewpoint because I've already told you where I said it and yet you keep asking this over and over again. Maybe you just really can't understand something that goes against what you say and provides a logical conclusion to the facts stated in the game. I'm sorry that you have this handicap. Go back and read what I said on this matter and tell me why it doesn't make sense in the least.

[Amaru]

When in the game is it stated Red XIII is not part of the Sephiroth clone project?
When in the game is it said he doesn't have Jenova Cells?

So we're now in the realm of loose fantasy, where if something is not said in the game, we can make up our own rules for them to be true? Fine then. Cloud was born a woman. It wasn't said in the game that he was, but we can make our own minds up. :rolleyes2

The fact is, you are discounting the single fact. FACT. He has a tatoo. FACT. The other clones have tattoos. So, you can't accept that? You refuse to see any connection?

Fact - Red XIII has a tattoo
Fact - The clones have a tattoo
Fact - Cloud and Zack don't have a tattoo
Fact - Red XIII never expresses, and we never see, any states, or experiences of the Jenova / Sephiroth cell connection
Fact - He was meant to live
Fact - He was meant to breed
Fact - He was meant to start a new species with Aeris

You can't and apparently will not explain why he has it and we are presented with the fact all the clones have it. Yes, all the clones do have it because they wer epart of the experiment. They were kept in the experiment. Cloud and Zack were not because a) they were failures and b) they escaped.

They could have been branded before they escaped, they weren't. There's that paragraph down the drain...

Red XIII has a tattoo of a number, just like all the other "successful" clones.

Wheres one shred of evidence that Red XIII was a successful clone. That's right, none!

As to him not showing signs of Jenova's influence, you seem to not even be capable of accepting another's viewpoint because I've already told you where I said it and yet you keep asking this over and over again.

Saying that he's frightened of going mad like the other tattooed experiments, means nothing and is not exclusive proof that he has Jenova cells. You keep crying for solid proof, yet provide none.

Maybe you just really can't understand something that goes against what you say and provides a logical conclusion to the facts stated in the game. I'm sorry that you have this handicap.

Let's quote your last post shall we?

Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here.

Yeah, who has the handicap here?

[Wuggly Blight]

Im not sure where some of these theories are coming from. Not much evidence really. (I dont count the guide as evidence as the guides are famous for being full of crap. There not written by Square, merely approved to be published since Square owns the Final Fantasy name. thats why its offical. anyway)

Fact - He was meant to live - Never stated
Fact - He was meant to breed - Never stated
Fact - He was meant to start a new species with Aeris - Never stated. It was stated once they MAY need to breed "the specimen" to continue research, that was IT. Adding a the word fact doesn't make it one.

Its a damn game, calm down.

[Amaru]

Lending a helping hand to an endangered species… Both of them are on the brink of extinction… If I don't help, all these animals will disappear.

That's only one partial quote from the scene that I've managed to dig out from my computer. Hojo was preparing to stop the extinction of the two species by making them breed. If you don't know facts about the game, don't interject into things.

[Hayabusa]

“OMG! But Seph is so much cooler111!!!” is not a reasonable counter for you Sephiroth fanboy blockheads.

What's wrong with liking sephiroth or FF7 - calm down man.

[Wuggly Blight]

Lending a helping hand to an endangered species… Both of them are on the brink of extinction… If I don't help, all these animals will disappear.

That's only one partial quote from the scene that I've managed to dig out from my computer. Hojo was preparing to stop the extinction of the two species by making them breed. If you don't know facts about the game, don't interject into things.

Your not serious.... really? you DIDNT get from that line? Hojo was NOT going to get Aeris and Red XIII to mate! Even a two year old KNOWS that. Im still amazed you even got that theory at all.

Edit: when he says help, I dont think it means helping BOTH. Like, feeding Aeris to the Red, battle of the strongest. Injecting cells, or something. I doubt Red and Aeris can even mate at all.