Did Anybody Else...Feel Bad for Orga XIII

[Giga Guess]

Did I pity them? Yes...they just wanted to become whole again. I can't begrudge them that. BUT! Their methods in achieving this were reprehensible. So I'm kinda 50-50 on this one.

[Zeromus_X]

Not really. I was too concentrated on how awesome they were to feel sorry for them, though alot of them weren't the nicest people in the world...

Yeah, Sora and Riku were really dickish to them.

[one winged shinigami]

But anyway...The very fact they had no emotions is what made me feel for them in the first place. They remember what it is like, they yearn to feel again, but they can't. That's like someone who is born blind, yet remembers another life where they could see. Remembers it so well they pretend they can see because of their denial, even when it's obvious they can't.. I mean, I would feel bad for that person.
And since Axel showed the Nobodies CAN have redeeming qualities, all I wanted was some sort of line from Sora asking if they could just talk things out, figure things out, not just "You're just pretending, so die."

Also, Riku says there is nothing wrong with the dark, only what's lurking inside. And throughout both games it is said that you need both dark and light... So just as Sora is fighting for the light, Xemnas is fighting for the dark, but one isn't necessarily evil. Xemnas would view Sora as being evil, trying to keep him away from his heart.

I agree. Personally, I think Saix was one of those who just wanted to return to normal.

As for Axel, I felt his pain in the cutscene where he died... But for the others, (say, Xigbar, Xaldin, Luxord) I'd have to say that they got what they deserved.

I once read somewhere that evil isn't necessarily a word used to describe a bad person, because the person may really be good at heart, but just fighting on the side viewed as the "bad" side. Like Maleficent, as she proved in the end (I think.). There are, of course exceptions to the rule, like, well, Xemnas!

Although Xemnas might be explained as wanting Xenahort's memory back.... you be the judge.

[Moon Rabbits]

Axel I felt bad for, and after I killed Demyx I was like "aw."

Same goes for Larxene and Xigbar (just cuz i like them).

[Skyblade]

But anyway...The very fact they had no emotions is what made me feel for them in the first place. They remember what it is like, they yearn to feel again, but they can't. That's like someone who is born blind, yet remembers another life where they could see. Remembers it so well they pretend they can see because of their denial, even when it's obvious they can't.. I mean, I would feel bad for that person.
And since Axel showed the Nobodies CAN have redeeming qualities, all I wanted was some sort of line from Sora asking if they could just talk things out, figure things out, not just "You're just pretending, so die."

Also, Riku says there is nothing wrong with the dark, only what's lurking inside. And throughout both games it is said that you need both dark and light... So just as Sora is fighting for the light, Xemnas is fighting for the dark, but one isn't necessarily evil. Xemnas would view Sora as being evil, trying to keep him away from his heart.

I agree. Personally, I think Saix was one of those who just wanted to return to normal.

As for Axel, I felt his pain in the cutscene where he died... But for the others, (say, Xigbar, Xaldin, Luxord) I'd have to say that they got what they deserved.

I once read somewhere that evil isn't necessarily a word used to describe a bad person, because the person may really be good at heart, but just fighting on the side viewed as the "bad" side. Like Maleficent, as she proved in the end (I think.). There are, of course exceptions to the rule, like, well, Xemnas!

Although Xemnas might be explained as wanting Xenahort's memory back.... you be the judge.

They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness. This is at least true of Ansem's apprentices, and I explained why it was likely true of the other leaders of the Organization. I don't really feel sorry for them just because they made a decision which had some really bad consequences. The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

Anyway, if I think about it more, I find that I pity them in the same way I pity a rabid dog: I feel sorry for them, but I won't hesitate if I got the chance to get rid of them, because their actions have shown that they won't hesitate to harm others.

In regards to your statement on "evil" being the word to describe them, I have to say I disagree. They are not "good at heart". Someone who is good at heart cares for more than just themselves. Many dictators originally held the honest belief that they knew how to run things better for everyone. The Organization did not even reach that point. Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals. That is evil, not misguided good.

Xemnas is far worse than the other members of the Organization, as can only be expected, given what we know about him...

[Ranyx]

I was very sad when Axel died

[Ouch!]

They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness.

Not true. They have no emtions because they, as Nobodies, lack a heart. Besides, not all the Nobodies in the organization necessarily gave their humanity willingly to turn to darkness. Sora certainly didn't intend to turn to darkness when he freed Kairi's heart and created Roxas, did he?

The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

Again, I'm going to have to point out that we only know that five of the organization members seperated their bodies and hearts on purpose and we know how Roxas was created. We don't know how the other seven became nobodies. They could have been nice people. Roxas was a bit of a jerk before his memory was wiped, and he came from Sora who was a genuinely nice guy. For all we know, the person who Saïx came from could have been the kindest person you'd ever meet.

Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals.

Of course Axel isn't included. He wasn't one of the five apprentices.

The two Organization members I feel sorry for are Saïx and Axel. They were the only members who expressed the desire to have a heart for the sake of having a heart. Everyone else either didn't say a whole lot about it, or they were like Xemnas who only wanted the power of a heart. Actually, most of them seemed to be having a heck of a good time being Nobodies.

[Rogue]

i felt real bad(poor poor axel)

[Skyblade]

They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness.

Not true. They have no emtions because they, as Nobodies, lack a heart. Besides, not all the Nobodies in the organization necessarily gave their humanity willingly to turn to darkness. Sora certainly didn't intend to turn to darkness when he freed Kairi's heart and created Roxas, did he?

They have no emotions because they are Nobodies, and Nobodies have no hearts. But they are Nobodies because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness. Thus, they have no emotions because they gave up their humanity and surrendered their hearts to the darkness. Their lack of emotion is a direct result of the choice they made.

The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

Again, I'm going to have to point out that we only know that five of the organization members seperated their bodies and hearts on purpose and we know how Roxas was created. We don't know how the other seven became nobodies. They could have been nice people. Roxas was a bit of a jerk before his memory was wiped, and he came from Sora who was a genuinely nice guy. For all we know, the person who Saïx came from could have been the kindest person you'd ever meet.

And I explained in my first post in this thread why I believe that the other members of the Organization became Heartless (and therefore created Nobodies) of their own free will.

Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals.

Of course Axel isn't included. He wasn't one of the five apprentices.

Yes, I know that Axel wasn't one of the apprentices. Just had a little mistype while I was explaining my views. I don't count either Roxas or Namine among the other Nobodies, but I usually do include Axel. So when I make comments about them like that, I feel that I should specifically state that I am not including Axel in that grouping. I had forgotten that I was only talking about the apprentices.

The two Organization members I feel sorry for are Saïx and Axel. They were the only members who expressed the desire to have a heart for the sake of having a heart. Everyone else either didn't say a whole lot about it, or they were like Xemnas who only wanted the power of a heart. Actually, most of them seemed to be having a heck of a good time being Nobodies.

I feel sorry for Axel. I don't feel sorry for Saïx. The scenes we see him in show him to be just as selfish and evil as every other member of the Organization (save Xemnas), if not more so. Everything he does, even those things that are not necessary to advance his plans, is calculated to hurt people. What reason did he have to tell Sora that Kairi didn't need him any more? The only reason for such a comment is that he was trying to cause Sora pain. He's a sadist, and I see no reason to feel sorry for him.

[LunarWeaver]

Saix tells Sora he has Kairi and he can't see her so he will continue to world-hop and take down more heartless. Since Roxas's keyblade can't do it anymore because he left they have to put Sora through manipulation to make him do it.

And it's true that Saix was a bastard, and hurt a lot of people just to get his heart...But Sora killed a lot of people just to keep him from his heart too. Aren't they doing the same thing?

Xemnas even says "Light and Darkness are eternal, so why do you hate us who are caught in the middle?" Now I'm not saying Xemnas was a good fellow, or his actions (or any of XIII's) were justified, but it just seemed kind of...mean to me that Sora didn't care at all. Even when Sora asks him "The heart isn't all about hate...it has a lot of emotions. Don't you remember?" And Xemnas looks sad and says "Unfortunately, I don't..." Similar to Saix stating he only wishes to exist and staring at Kingdom Hearts while saying "Kingdom Hearts...where is my heart?" I guess I thought that was pretty sad.

Also, when you defeat Finkelstein's experiement, Sally says it did the things it did because it wanted a heart and didn't have one, and Sora says "When you put it that way...I feel kinda bad for it." But not Orga XIII? Are they not the same?

Anyway, it's not like I disagree with you that XIII didn't need to be stopped, they didn't need to do the things they did, they were very ebil people who went out of their way to torture others... But they do have a goal in mind, and that's to exist. So to say they did horrible things to get their heart is the same as saying Sora does horrible things to keep them from their heart... He's killing them just like they are killing others... That's how I took it anyway.. But it's all just my opinion, so...