Revelation of the Truth

[Viator]

That is not good answer.

Are you people blind or what,of course there`s flaws in the game?
You should figure it out on youself if you claim that you already finished the game.

[Ryushikaze]

No, Insisting that him knowing that there's some sort of limit is a baseless assumption is not a good argument to begin with.

Concession accepted on the flaws. If you can't elucidate what they are, there is no point in me worrying about them.

[Viator]

Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

It`s hard to believe that you can`t notice the flaws.
Like I said you have to figure it out on yourself.
If you cant then try HARDER.

[Sir Bahamut]

HOW?
Sorceress Edea is not the answer because I already explained it.

What do you mean how? They just give away their powers, then carry on living.

As for Edea, your case is very weak. The two possible theories as to why Edea didn't die after giving up her powers are, 1) a sorceress doesn't have to die after giving up powers, or 2) Edea didn't give up all her powers.

Theory 2 requires that Edea specifically lies to us when she says she is no longer a sorceress, ie. that Square deliberately put in misleading information which serves no purpose to the plot at all (as Edea's powers are never in the centre of things again later). Considering that nothing actually speaks against theory 1, clearly it is by far the strongest theory.

Of course that is something wrong.Because there`s only one way to give away sorceress power the prize is dead.(i.e Sorceress Adel dead after she give away her power to Rinoa)
The reason Sorceress Edea is not dead because it`s Ultimecia`s power that get away from her, not her sorceress power.

Sorceress Adel gave up her powers before dying because she had been killed by Squall and Co, and as the game states, a sorceress needs to rid herself of her powers in order to die. But this in no way implies the opposite (giving up powers means death), as commented on above.

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.

And how is that?

Like I said it`s Square`s intention to make us believe that Edea is not a sorceress anymore.
(you still not answer this question yet.)
I want to say this once more : There`s FLAWS in the game.I'm sure everyone realised that.

It isn't a question to be answered. Unless you get an official confirmation from Square that they were deliberately trying to mislead us, then fine, but until then your claim is ludicrous.

And yes, there ARE flaws in the game (eg. time compression fails to fully make sense when scrutinised) but those flaws are generally obvious to see, and can't really be seen as anything but a flaw. But what exactly is your point?

You misunderstood me.I mean JME does exist,I only say that JME doesnt work that`s all,Got that?
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

And considering that Odine's assumptions were made up by Square, he carries far more weight than you do. Hence unless you show why we shouldn't believe his 'assumption', it can be considered canon.

This is not an answer.It is only your believe,no?

Tell me then, do you really believe that a sorceress who can compress time itself, and absorb the entire universe, as well as brining statues to life, manifest GF's out of thin air and read people's minds would really have a problem with possessing someone?

People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.

Squall and Co feel TC yet TC isn't finished then either...

Of course people would just go "She's not evil anymore?"
Squall will prove that Edea is kind hearted and all.Squall will give Edea's history, that she's is Kind Matron,she build orphanage for orphans.
This is evidence to show to the world that Edea basically Good sorceress before she's possessed by Evil sorceress.
From the beginning of history human already hostile to sorceresses.

If you take a look at human history (eg. witch hunts) I think you'll find people are usually a bit less merciful than what you think.

However, let's say they believe the story about Edea. That however leaves the question as to who the sorceress who possessed her was. Unless a good identity is given, people are in no way going to buy into the story that she was just possessed. It's like; "Don't worry, she's not evil, she was just possessed!". "By who?!". "Oh, no one...".

No one would buy into that. Eventually Ultimecia would have to be revealed. Whatever happens, sorceresses would be loathed by the public even more than before.

There`s indication, in that Final Battle you can attack 2 Ultimecia.That`s the indication,no?

Come on, did you not read what I said? The fact that there are 2 targets in Ultimecia's final form has a perfectly good alternate explanation which I shared in my last post.

How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

It's not good enough to say that there are flaws in the game. You have to specifically point out flaws which cannot be seen as anything but flaws, and then show how those flaws support your theory.

[Skyblade]

Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

Actually, no, it's not. It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw if you actually take the time to think things through. Junction Machine Ellone was based off of Ellone's powers. Now then, Ellone had her limits: She could only send you back into people that she knows. If the JME is a reproduction of her ability, then it could well suffer from the same limitation. It must have some interaction with someone in order to send you back into that person. Thus JME can send you back at most a single generation past the point it was created, as it would have no one to send you into if you go back further. Thus, in order to reach further into the past, you would need the powers of Ellone herself. It isn't a nonsense excuse, it is an explanation that fits the in game evidence that we have.

[Moon Rabbits]

As per the usual, Sir Bahamut has basically said everything I would and pretty much debunked your theory 100%.

[Viator]

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

This is one of flaws in the game to show to us that Edea is STILL a sorceress,no one can deny this fact.

It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

Actually she's not lying to us it`s only Square`Intention.Maybe Square realised this mistake,but they just leave it because that's just the way it is.

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

Edea is not lying it's only Square'Intention to make her lie.
JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
If Square make Edea still a sorceress that would destroy the plot because at that time we would asking how Rinoa become a sorceress.
If Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress that would make a flaw, maybe some people wont notice this flaw.The flaw is this:

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

That's why it would better to make Edea is no longer a sorceress because most people wont notice this flaw.

People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.
Squall and Co feel TC yet TC isn't finished then either...

Yeah I forget to say only Squall and Co can felt TC.
Squall and Co can felt TC because they get inside TC.
If everyone can felt TC,eveyone already go to the future like Squall and Co did.

What do you mean how? They just give away their powers, then carry on living.

If they can give away their sorceress power,why Edea doesnt do it in the begining.Edea said :
Sorceress Ultimecia is alive. She is able to take control of my body at any time. If that were to happen... I would once again bring terror. I, too, value my self-being. I want to protect myself. If it were possible, I would like to rid myself of the sorceress' power.Doctor Odine may know a way. He may be able to save me.
She said Doctor Odine might know a way that means Edea doesnt know how to get rid of her sorceress power.Other sorceresses dont know how to get rid their power either except dead.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).

[QUOTE+Sir Bahamut]Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.
And how is that?[/QUOTE]

That simple knowledge is Edea explain her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past.With this simple knowledge,almost everything can be explained.

And considering that Odine's assumptions were made up by Square, he carries far more weight than you do. Hence unless you show why we shouldn't believe his 'assumption', it can be considered canon.

You have to know that assumption is the thing that can be RIGHT and WRONG.You shouldn'd believe his assumption because it's just assumptsion,no more than that.

And yes, there ARE flaws in the game (eg. time compression fails to fully make sense when scrutinised) but those flaws are generally obvious to see, and can't really be seen as anything but a flaw. But what exactly is your point? It's not good enough to say that there are flaws in the game. You have to specifically point out flaws which cannot be seen as anything but flaws, and then show how those flaws support your theory.

The flaw is Edea is no longer a sorceress.
I already show you that Edea is STILL a sorceress.

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

Because with this flaw it would lead to another question.
Where Rinoa get her power from?.It's sure not from Edea because she's STILL a sorceress.
The answer of that question is Ultimecia's power

However, let's say they believe the story about Edea. That however leaves the question as to who the sorceress who possessed her was. Unless a good identity is given, people are in no way going to buy into the story that she was just possessed. It's like; "Don't worry, she's not evil, she was just possessed!". "By who?!". "Oh, no one...".
No one would buy into that. Eventually Ultimecia would have to be revealed. Whatever happens, sorceresses would be loathed by the public even more than before.

Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

Tell me then, do you really believe that a sorceress who can compress time itself, and absorb the entire universe, as well as brining statues to life, manifest GF's out of thin air and read people's minds would really have a problem with possessing someone?

Then why she can defeated by Squall and Co?Sorry this is not a question.
I already explained how Ultimecia possessed Edea.It's only your turn to believe it or not,that's all the matters.

Come on, did you not read what I said? The fact that there are 2 targets in Ultimecia's final form has a perfectly good alternate explanation which I shared in my last post.
the reason we see two Ultimecia's is because Ultimecia has transformed herself in order to absorb time and space (which is what it says if you scan her; hence the top part can be seen as the part absorbing, and the bottom part as the human remains of Ultimecia).

With that explanation it shows us that there`s TWO Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.We can attack TWO Ultimecia,that's another explanation,that show us that there's two Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

EDEA IS LYING. I already show to you that Edea is STILL a sorceress
I will show to you once more time.

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

Actually she's not lying to us it`s only Square`Intention.Maybe Square realised this mistake,but they just leave it because that's just the way it is.

then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.

How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

You have to seperate truth and lie because there's FLAWS in the game.

[Ryushikaze]

Note: Edea said "the sorceress' power. Not "My sorceress' power. She refers to Ulti's ability to take over her mind, and hoped Odine could give her something to solve the problem.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Yes you´re completely right despite Edea having lost her own powers she can still be possesed by Ultimecia and that´s why she needs to speak with Dr. Odine to free her of that burden.

[Sir Bahamut]

Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

I'll get back to this later though.

Yeah I forget to say only Squall and Co can felt TC.
Squall and Co can felt TC because they get inside TC.
If everyone can felt TC,eveyone already go to the future like Squall and Co did.

Squall and Co went to the future because they were prepared and had the willpower to get there. If anyone else went into TC, they probably wouldn't have any idea what hit them, and would be absorbed immediately.

In other words, your assumption that only Squall and Co feel TC is baseless; TC encompasses all of time, not just Squall and Co!

If they can give away their sorceress power,why Edea doesnt do it in the begining.Edea said :
Sorceress Ultimecia is alive. She is able to take control of my body at any time. If that were to happen... I would once again bring terror. I, too, value my self-being. I want to protect myself. If it were possible, I would like to rid myself of the sorceress' power.Doctor Odine may know a way. He may be able to save me.
She said Doctor Odine might know a way that means Edea doesnt know how to get rid of her sorceress power.Other sorceresses dont know how to get rid their power either except dead.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).

Edea doesn't give away her powers because that would merely mean placing her troubles on someone else. She simply didn't want anyone else to be in her position (as proven by the ending where she accepts Ultimecia's powers so the children will not become a sorceress). In other words, she DID know of a way, but was not willing to accept that way. She wanted another, more final way, and hoped Odine had the answer.

Now, Odine DOES know how:

Dr. Odine: Zat will be easy.

Dr. Odine: We just exorcise the sorceress. There iz nothing Odine
cannot do.

He merely didn't know when Adel was sealed up (more than 10 years ago).

Now, here's the deal with Edea:

It IS weird that she didn't realise she was no longer a sorceress. Although some possible explanations might be given (she didn't wish to use her powers anymore at all for instance, so she never noticed she had lost them), none are really satisfactory. However, the only thing we can infer from this is that Square did a bit of bad storytelling. They say black and white that Edea lost her powers at the end of disc 2, but don't have her realise this until after a long time. That is obviously a bit of a plothole.

But one cannot from there draw the assumption that Edea actually still WAS a sorceress, because it implies that Square put in a line which contradicted the plot. Plot-holes may exist, but not blatantly false statements like "Edea is not a sorceress" when in fact she is.

It's weird, but only a plothole.

That simple knowledge is Edea explain her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past.With this simple knowledge,almost everything can be explained.

Only because you believe the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing which you have yet to back up at all. Since the game makes no mention of this, the knowledge that Edea met Ultimecia would not provide a better explanation than the JME to Odine.

You have to know that assumption is the thing that can be RIGHT and WRONG.You shouldn'd believe his assumption because it's just assumptsion,no more than that.

We have no reason not to believe him. No part of the game contradicts his assumption, and it is never suggested he was wrong. Further, the Ultimania never states anything suggesting he was incorrect either. Hence it can be considered official that his assumption was correct.

Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

Effect would be the same; the people would fear and hate sorceresses.

With that explanation it shows us that there`s TWO Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.We can attack TWO Ultimecia,that's another explanation,that show us that there's two Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

No, it shows that Ultimecia is in two parts, not that there are two of her in one. There's a difference.

Then why she can defeated by Squall and Co?Sorry this is not a question.
I already explained how Ultimecia possessed Edea.It's only your turn to believe it or not,that's all the matters.

They could beat them because they were fated to do so.

This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.

Yes, and as he is the greatest scientist in FF8 and his assumptions were written by Square, there is no reason to doubt him.

To sum up

Your case could be quite good in principle as it is fairly logical. However, it rests upon a gross exaggeration of what is really just a minor plothole on Square's side. There is simply no reason to believe that Edea was not telling the truth. Believing she does tell the truth only leaves us with a slightly lacking script. Believing she doesn't leaves us with a completely contradictory script and a whole lot of unexplained questions.

As such, it is only logical to assume she is telling the truth.

[Viator]

Dont talk about JME thing again because it's useless,let's talk it in another time.
The key to make my theory work is Edea's power.

I have show and PROVE to you that Edea is STILL a SORCERESS.
Edea still a sorceress that means Rinoa doesnt have Edea's power.
So she become a sorceress because Ultimecia's power.When she's in coma she only have Ultimecia's power.(You can read it in my theory)
And because Edea STILL a sorceress my theory IS TRUE.

[OUOTE=Sir Bahamut]In other words, she DID know of a way, but was not willing to accept that way. She wanted another, more final way, and hoped Odine had the answer.[/QUOTE]

she didnt know a way! And Odine cant help her either.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).
Odine only said
Dr. Odine: We just exorcise the sorceress. There iz nothing Odine
cannot do.
He only exorcise the sorceress,he doesnt know how to remove sorceress' power.

JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
If Square make Edea still a sorceress that would destroy the plot because at that time we would asking how Rinoa become a sorceress.
If Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress that would make a flaw, maybe some people wont notice this flaw.The flaw isthis:
Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.
That's why it would better to make Edea is no longer a sorceress because most people wont notice this flaw.

Actually Square should make Edea still a sorceress but they didnt.
Even they make Edea STILL a sorceress they wont destroy the plot.(storyline).
IF they make Edea still a sorceress it would destroy the surprise we'll find later.The surprise is at the ending.

Only because you believe the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing which you have yet to back up at all. Since the game makes no mention of this, the knowledge that Edea met Ultimecia would not provide a better explanation than the JME to Odine.

Actually the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing CAN explain everything.
And can make the storyline PERFECT!

Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

Effect would be the same; the people would fear and hate sorceresses.

I already explain to you that future generation wont know anything about Ultimecia.It only your turn to believe my theory about Ultimecia's history wont get recorded.If you still believe your theory fine.


Let's not talk about 2 Ultimecia thing again until I find more explanation
Well if you find any thought about 2 Ultimecia thing just tell me.

They could beat them because they were fated to do so.

What do you mean THEM? You mean TWO Ultimecia.

This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.
Yes, and as he is the greatest scientist in FF8 and his assumptions were written by Square, there is no reason to doubt him.

ASSUMPTION is the thing can be RIGHT and WRONG.
Even the Greatest Scientist CAN BE WRONG.

Actually Time Compression ONLY absorb Time and Space.
Actually Human is NOT part of Time and Space.
They just exist in Time and Space.
So when Time Compression start it only absorb Time and Space not human,Squall and Co is an EXCEPTION
When TC is completed all existance would get inside TC like to
become A Single Point.

I believe Human can't felt TC because TC never completed only Squall and Co can felt it.

Time Compression is MYSTERIES YET UNSOLVED.
Time Compression is SO INDEFINABLE.
Time Compression is BEYOND OUR KNOWLEDGE,OUR IMAGINATION,OUR DREAMS
OUR VISIONS,OUR UNDERSTANDING OR WHATEVER LEFT.

Then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.
How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.
You have to seperate truth and lie because there's FLAWS in the game.

It looks like nobody believes my theory,seems like this is going to be a LONG struggle.And I dont have much time left.

[Sir Bahamut]

Ah, forget it.

Your theory involves making a new plot out of a tiny plot hole. It requires us to think of the whole game as being different than it is said to be; Edea didn't give up her powers, Rinoa has Ultimecia's powers, and Ultimecia never did her possessing from the future with the JME, she was inside Edea in the present all along, because "Her power is her life". The only thing this is derived from is this little plot hole.

You say the game has flaws, and indeed this is one of them. However, why can you simply not see them as flaws, and nothing more? It's up to you of course, but I'm not about to 'believe' your theory, I'm afraid. It's just a plot hole.

[Qurange]

Especially when it's more plausible to think that yes, Edea had Ultimecia's powers--and she could recognize that, and have it count as 'knowing' and have that be the explanation for how Ulti could use JME to reach that far back, whether she knew or not that those were 'her' powers--they were the same exact powers, so there was a link.

Plot holes, maybe, but this stuff can be explained without reworking the plot, but instead explaining elements in terms of the plot.

[Viator]

Now you already realised that there's plothole in story.
Actually the plotholes in the game CAN destroy the REAL STORYLINE.
My theory is to close this plothole to make story PERFECT!
My new plots here to close that plotholes that exist in the game.
You still can't accept my theory because you already have your own perspective about FF8.
But believe me your perspective about FF8 have ERRORS
And if you accept my theory you wont find any ERRORS again.
Now I want you to forget about Square or anything like that.
You have to focus on REAL STORYLINE that I have made.
Then you'll realised that I was RIGHT in the begining.
If you still can't accept my theory yet,you have to read my theory everyday,so someday you'll realised my theory is TRUE!

I already found another explaination about 2 Ultimecia,here it is :
You know twin right?they are 2 person with same appearance.
But there's also twin in one body which means that there's 2 person in one body.
It's same with 2 Ultimecia,there's 2 Ultimecia in one body.
I know this is not good explanation... Not bad either I guess...
With this explaination it makes my theory about 2 Ultimecia stronger.
That there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

I believe there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia
And you believe there's only 1 Ultimecia.
We both have give many explanations about 2 Ultimecia thing which is maybe contradict with each other.
BUT in my theory it explains that there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia PERFECTLY.

Ellone send Rinoa and Ultimecia to the past,Ultimecia start Time Compression and back to the future along with her power and then possess her own body in the future.HEEEYYY it would EXPLAIN another thing when we fight Ultimecia in Final Battle you can see there`s TWO ULTIMECIA.WOW never thought about it (I hope you can understand it in your way).

With my theory I already prove that Rinoa ONLY have Adel's power.

[Ryushikaze]

You lost me at "You have to focus on REAL STORYLINE that I have made.", which succintly proved that you are naught more than a crazed conspiracy theorist. Your "REAL STORYLINE" is not Plausible, much less probable.