Revelation of the Truth

[Viator]

I will tell you the truth,I dont know why...
Hmm,now where do I start.
JME is only Doc Odine`s theory (The JME never work in the future)
If you remember in president palace Odine said sorceress Edea already told him everything.Is that the truth?NO If Edea already told Odine about everything he wouldn`t come up with his theory about JME.I believe Edea don`t tell everything to Odine.She only tell Odine that she is possessed by sorceress from future named Ultimecia and Ultimecia want to achieve Time Compression.Edea NEVER told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past that is the only the explanation why Odine talk about JME.I dont know why she doesnt tell Odine,she must have her reason.And she doesnt tell to Squall either she only give Squall a hint.
So how Ultimecia possessed Edea.Its quite clear the answer is at the ending when Edea received Ultimecia`s power.Let`s just say of all sorceresesses Ultimecia is a special one.she has a motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE".(Dont ask me why I know about it you just need to believe it).So as long as her power still exist she is still alive.So inside Edea (at that time)there`s 2 spirit(Ultimecia and Edea)Ultimecia weakened after she defeated and have to wait to gained her strenght before she can take over Edea`s body,so she just resting inside Edea before she`s strong enough to control Edea.
White SeeD were raised and trained by Edea.She is doing her best to train her children to make them strong.Edea at that time already know that someday Ultimecia will take over her body.Edea is fight back as long as she can but eventually lost to Ultimecia`s spirit.Because Ultimecia inside her,Edea already know everyting about Ultimecia.Same when Rinoa is possesed by Ultimecia.Rinoa know everything about Ultimecia.Edea knew that Ultimecia is after Ellone so she told White SeeD to protect Ellone.So Ultimecia possessed Edea with this WAY not with JME(We dont find any clue about JME in Ultimecia`s Castle,OK).With this explanation it will destroy my theory (my thread title "Denying fate i dont think so").It will expain her awareness of her fate dead at Squall`s hand.But I THINK she doesnt know her fate yet,BUT I BELIEVE she knew about her fate,well...(It looks like I have 2 opposite theories but I believe this theory).Let`s just say when we play FF VIII that is THE FIRST CIRCLE of history.So she doesnt know about her fate.Confusing?yes very confusing.
And it would explain another thing that Edea STILL a sorceress,like I said there`s 2 spirit inside Edea(Ultimecia and herself).AlSo there`s 2 sorceress`s power inside Edea.So Rinoa recieved Ultimecia`s power not Edea.Remember there`s only one way for sorceress to give away her power to someone else.If Rinoa recieved Edea`s power Edea will DIE right away.So when Rinoa in coma she recieved Ultimecia`s power(spirit) not Edea.When we fight Adel.Adel junctioned with Rinoa and then come a question who is the one controling Adel (Ultimecia or Adel herself)(it is still be arguably).After Adel defeated she pass on her power to Rinoa.Then Ellone send Rinoa and Ultimecia to the past,Ultimecia start Time Compression and back to the future along with her power and then possess her own body in the future.HEEEYYY it would EXPLAIN another thing when we fight Ultimecia in Final Battle you can see there`s TWO ULTIMECIA.WOW never thought about it (I hope you can understand it in your way).So after Squall and co travel to the future,Rinoa ONLY have Adel`s power.This is the best explanation (TRUTH).Many people are confuse about Rinoa`s power.Adel cant control Rinoa because she is dead for sure.Like I said Ultimecia is a special sorceress So she is still alive after she is defeated.(Remember her motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE").It sounds like Ultimecia is eternal.
I know in the game Zell said Matron is not a sorceress anymore,this is just Square intention to make us believe Edea is not a sorceress anymore.Odine said Rinoa is the only sorceress in present time however we know that this is not the truth because there`s still many sorceress hidden around the world in the present time(you can read it in the tutorial)Square intended to say this(Odine said Rinoa is the only sorceress in the present) to make us dont ask "What about the other sorceress?"That is one flaw in FF VIII and I already solved it to make the REAL storyline fit.You have seperate truth and lie in FF VIII.If you find the truth follow it,if you find the lie ignore it.Then another question eventually came up,how Ultimecia know about Ellone? Ultimecia know about Ellone through JME,yes JME exist in the future but never works because JME never finished by Odine(Maybe Odine die before finished it)And NOBODY in the future can finish it.So JME in the future is only a theory (send someone`s consciousness to the past) (JME machine exist in the future BUT cant send someone consciousness to the past because not finish yet)And JME is a common knowledge in the future.That`s why Ultimecia wants to find the REAL Ellone to prove Odine`s theory about JME.So she can travel to the past and achieve Time Compression.
Hmm sounds complicated but if you spend sometime think about it,you`ll eventually get it.(If not try HARDER)
I think this is enough,I want(hope) you to read at least THREE TIMES before you post your reply,PLEASE
This is the Truth I want to tell you.

I believe that Ultimecia knew about her fate,but that is NOT the REAL reason why she want to compress time.She must have another reason(fot example to become ruler of everything).BUT I believe beside these 2 reasons there must be REAL REASON why she wants to compress time.I think we will never know what the reason IS.




Viator

[Future Esthar]

Nor Edea nor Rinoa can acknowledge Ulti´s thoughts.

I have evidence that they can´t.

Quoting evidence,Ironically.

[Viator]

They CAN.When Ragnarok has landing and some estharian come Rinoa know about Ultimecia going to compress time and all.That`s the evidence they CAN.

[Sir Bahamut]

Sorry, but you're ideas here are clearly not valid, as they all rest on intricate and baseless assumptions.

"My power is my life"; pure imagination.

JME doesn't work; pure imagination.

Square intentionnally deceiving us to think that Edea is no longer a sorceress; nonsense.

Rinoa only having Adels' powers when going to future; pure imagination.

Since your whole intricate idea is based on those notions, it follows that the idea itself is pure imagination (and pretty nonsensical too). Ultimecia's motives for wanting to compress time are almost certainly based on a combination of wanting to change her fate, wanting to get revenge on those who persecuted her, and becoming all powerful. Simple as that.

[Viator]

This explanation is the truth if you dont believe it you can smurf yourself!!!(to Sir Bahamut).
You really have to change your attitude or else you wont get anything.
Then, Sir Bahamut TELL ME the better explanation then this one.

I think Lycon is right about YOU.
You need someone to guide you into the LIGHT!!!

[Sir Bahamut]

The better explanation was fully developed by "TheOnionKnight" and can be found in the FAQ I co-wrote (which you claimed to have read).

I still stand by what I say though. I guess I won't ever see the light :rolleyes2

PS: What's with the triple-posting? Heard of editing?

[Viator]

Sorry, but you're ideas here are clearly not valid, as they all rest on intricate and baseless assumptions.
If you tell me that my idea is only a assumsption than your theory IS A ASSUMPTION TOO.

"My power is my life"; pure imagination.

Then tell me how Ultimecia still alive after that and control Edea.Please dont say with JME because idont believe you have to do something better than that.

JME doesn't work; pure imagination.

Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

Square intentionnally deceiving us to think that Edea is no longer a sorceress; nonsense.
Like I said if Edea give away her power she will die right away but no Edea is still alive why because she STILL have her sorceress power.There`s only one way to give away sorceress power, the prize is DEATH

Rinoa only having Adels' powers when going to future; pure imagination.
Of course She only have Adel power not Ultimecia or Edea.Because Rinoa recieved Adel power after she is death and like I said Ultimecia spirit and her power back again in herself in the future that`s why we see TWO ULTIMECIA when we fight her in Final Battle
Since your whole intricate idea is based on those notions, it follows that the idea itself is pure imagination (and pretty nonsensical too). Ultimecia's motives for wanting to compress time are almost certainly based on a combination of wanting to change her fate, wanting to get revenge on those who persecuted her, and becoming all powerful. Simple as that.

.My idea is not imagination but the truth.Why you always say that the reason Ultimecia to compress time is to deny her fate.THAT`S YOUR IMAGINATION!!!

That my answer at post number 9 read it.

[Sir Bahamut]

Your quoting method is a bit messed up there, but anyway.

Then tell me how Ultimecia still alive after that and control Edea.Please dont say with JME because idont believe you have to do something better than that.

Ultimecia is NOT alive after that, what on earth makes you think that? Ultimecia dies after giving her powers to Edea. The reason the future Ultimecia is able to control Edea is through the JME (will comment more below).

Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

So basically uo have no real argument. You just have the feeling that there must be something more. Well, that's all well and good if you're writing fan-fiction, but clearly you need support from the game to makes this claim valid. You offered no such support here.

Like I said if Edea give away her power she will die right away but no Edea is still alive why because she STILL have her sorceress power.There`s only one way to give away sorceress power, the prize is DEATH

The game never states that a sorceress will die when giving up her powers. It only states that a sorceress must give up her powers in order to die. Big difference. In other words, your argument here is completely baseless.

Of course She only have Adel power not Ultimecia or Edea.Because Rinoa recieved Adel power after she is death and like I said Ultimecia spirit and her power back again in herself in the future that`s why we see TWO ULTIMECIA when we fight her in Final Battle

Or Rinoa kept all her powers, and the reason we see two Ultimecia's is because Ultimecia has transformed herself in order to absorb time and space (which is what it says if you scan her; hence the top part can be seen as the part absorbing, and the bottom part as the human remains of Ultimecia). By Occam's Razor, this view is far simpler and thus more favourable.

My idea is not imagination but the truth.Why you always say that the reason Ultimecia to compress time is to deny her fate.THAT`S YOUR IMAGINATION!!!

It doesn't become the truth just because you say so. If I had said "NO IT'S NOT THE TRUTH!" what could you say in return? Please, stick to real arguments here. Anyway, it's hardly only 'my imagination'. Ultimecia bluntly proclaims that Squall is destined (ie. by fate) to defeat her, and then promptly tries to kill him. How that is not denying her fate is beyond me.

[Christmas]

Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

Are you trying to say that the game or the characters in it lied?

[Del Murder]

Viator, please calm down and act a little more polite in your replies. Also don't double post.

[Viator]

We know that there`s flaws in the game

If there`s another way to pass over sorceress power without die why Estharian keep Adel in Adel`s tomb,they just can remove her power,right?And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.

If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

Doesnt that weird that JME have a limit.
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.it sounds far fecthed.the question is how the hell he knows about it if he is not the one who make it, doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.

JME is same with Ellone`s ability.(Only send someone consciousness into the past)
When Squall and Co send into the past in Laguna`s past we know that they only see the past,they dont possess Laguna and Co right?
If you say because Ultimecia is sorceress so she can possess another sorceress by using JME then you`re wrong.There`s no real evidence that JME ever exist.

I think JME almost identical with Time Machine.
Do you think Time Machine have a limit.

When Ultimecia transformed we see there`s is 2 Ultimecia
It would make more sense that there`s 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.
(You can read it again in my theory if you dont understand fine then, believe in what you believe)

Then proof me the existance of JME (Odine`s words is not a proof its only his assumption about how Ultimecia possess another sorceress)

I believe Squall will say to the world that Sorceress Edea is possessed by Evil sorceress and that Evil sorceress already defeated when Balamb Garden VS Galbadia Garden and sorceress Edea is not evil anymore, if they dont accept this simple story how the [leeza]*snip*[/leeza] they can accept or even believe story that there`s sorceress from the future named Ultimecia the one who possessed Edea and she wants to achieve Time Compression and we already defeated her in the future and blah blah blah ...
Sometime its better to keep the truth to ourselves.

I dont say the game and character is lied
Like I said you need to seperate truth and lie because there`s flaws in the game.

If you read my theory again you will realised that with my theory the story became fit.

PS:Bahamut you`ve changed since you write time/Ultimecia theory.
Are you guys really read it 3 times(I doubt...)
Sorry the last time I dont polite because there is something bothering me.

[leeza]We have filters at this site for a reason so please do not go around them again. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[Ryushikaze]

Not going to address everything, but Doc Odine knows the machine has a limit based on two things. 1- The fact that they know she can't make it far enough on her own, hence her search for Ellone, and 2- Common sense. EVERYTHING has a limit, and pretending it doesn't is such a common and egregious fallacy that it has its own name, the 'no-limits' fallacy.

[Sir Bahamut]

If there`s another way to pass over sorceress power without die why Estharian keep Adel in Adel`s tomb,they just can remove her power,right?

You misunderstand. I meant that a sorceress can willingly give away powers when still alive (ie. not only just before dying), not that the powers can be extracted in some other means. That might be possible, but was obviously not something the Estharians were capable of, hence they sealed her up instead (because any other option would result in someone else getting her powers).

And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.

Yes. Is there anything wrong with that?

If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME

I don't understand you. How would the knowledge that Ultimecia, Edea and Squall met in the past once rule out the JME theory?

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

Doesnt that weird that JME have a limit.
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.it sounds far fecthed.the question is how the hell he knows about it if he is not the one who make it, doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.

Ryu answered this one.

JME is same with Ellone`s ability.(Only send someone consciousness into the past)
When Squall and Co send into the past in Laguna`s past we know that they only see the past,they dont possess Laguna and Co right?
If you say because Ultimecia is sorceress so she can possess another sorceress by using JME then you`re wrong.There`s no real evidence that JME ever exist.

Unless you come up with a damned good argument showing why JME doesn't exist, then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us, that the JME DOES exist. It's your job to show why the JME doesn't exist, not our job to show why it does.

As for possessing, Squall and Co didn't TRY to possess Laguna and Co. If they had, they may have been able to influence them. Ultimecia, being a powerful sorceress, has very great willpower, and went into Edea and Rinoa with the desire to possess them. It is then no wonder that she is able to do so. If she can compress and absorb time and space, she must surely be able to possess someone.

I think JME almost identical with Time Machine.
Do you think Time Machine have a limit.

Almost isn't good enough. Anyway, a time machine may well have a limit. As a real-life example, a time machine using a wormhole has a limit, in that you can't go further back than to the birth of the wormhole.

When Ultimecia transformed we see there`s is 2 Ultimecia
It would make more sense that there`s 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

No it wouldn't. Scanning Ultimecia tells us flat out that she has transformed in order to absorb time and space. From there it is perfectly plausible that her human part might remain as an appendage to her transformed self. Nothing really indicates that there are two Ultimecia's in one.

Then proof me the existance of JME (Odine`s words is not a proof its only his assumption about how Ultimecia possess another sorceress)

Again though, since you are the one holding the controversial and not obvious view (that Odine is wrong), it is YOUR job to prove US wrong, not vice versa. I do not need to prove that it exists, because that's what the game tells us. YOU need to prove that the game is wrong.

I believe Squall will say to the world that Sorceress Edea is possessed by Evil sorceress and that Evil sorceress already defeated when Balamb Garden VS Galbadia Garden and sorceress Edea is not evil anymore, if they dont accept this simple story how the f@@@ they can accept or even believe story that there`s sorceress from the future named Ultimecia the one who possessed Edea and she wants to achieve Time Compression and we already defeated her in the future and blah blah blah ...
Sometime its better to keep the truth to ourselves.

Well, considering that everyone would have fealt TC coming, I don't think people would find it that farfetched really. But still, I somehow doubt people would just go "She's not evil anymore? Oh, ok. Letæ's go on with our lives like normal". They WOULD be hostile to sorceresses.

If you read my theory again you will realised that with my theory the story became fit.

Sorry, but that's not true. When a theory requires several things told in the game to be wrong (JME, Edea not being sorceress etc.), and also requires unfounded assumptions (2 Ultimecia in one etc.), then it is not a good theory.

[Viator]

You misunderstand. I meant that a sorceress can willingly give away powers when still alive (ie. not only just before dying)

HOW?
Sorceress Edea is not the answer because I already explained it.


Actually I was going to say this:
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.

And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.Yes. Is there anything wrong with that?

Of course that is something wrong.Because there`s only one way to give away sorceress power the prize is dead.(i.e Sorceress Adel dead after she give away her power to Rinoa)
The reason Sorceress Edea is not dead because it`s Ultimecia`s power that get away from her, not her sorceress power.

If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME.
I don't understand you. How would the knowledge that Ultimecia, Edea and Squall met in the past once rule out the JME theory?

Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.
It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

Like I said it`s Square`s intention to make us believe that Edea is not a sorceress anymore.
(you still not answer this question yet.)
I want to say this once more : There`s FLAWS in the game.I'm sure everyone realised that.

Unless you come up with a damned good argument showing why JME doesn't exist, then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us, that the JME DOES exist. It's your job to show why the JME doesn't exist, not our job to show why it does.

You misunderstood me.I mean JME does exist,I only say that JME doesnt work that`s all,Got that?
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

Ultimecia, being a powerful sorceress, has very great willpower, and went into Edea and Rinoa with the desire to possess them. It is then no wonder that she is able to do so. If she can compress and absorb time and space, she must surely be able to possess someone.

This is not an answer.It is only your believe,no?

Well, considering that everyone would have fealt TC coming, I don't think people would find it that farfetched really. But still, I somehow doubt people would just go "She's not evil anymore? Oh, ok. Letæ's go on with our lives like normal". They WOULD be hostile to sorceresses.

People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.
Of course people would just go "She's not evil anymore?"
Squall will prove that Edea is kind hearted and all.Squall will give Edea's history, that she's is Kind Matron,she build orphanage for orphans.
This is evidence to show to the world that Edea basically Good sorceress before she's possessed by Evil sorceress.
From the beginning of history human already hostile to sorceresses.

No it wouldn't. Scanning Ultimecia tells us flat out that she has transformed in order to absorb time and space. From there it is perfectly plausible that her human part might remain as an appendage to her transformed self. Nothing really indicates that there are two Ultimecia's in one.

There`s indication, in that Final Battle you can attack 2 Ultimecia.That`s the indication,no?

Almost isn't good enough. Anyway, a time machine may well have a limit. As a real-life example, a time machine using a wormhole has a limit, in that you can't go further back than to the birth of the wormhole.

That`s only a THEORY,OK! There`s nothing we can argue in here.

then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.

How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

[Ryushikaze]

Actually I was going to say this:
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.

YOU ARE COMMITING A NO LIMITS FALLACY! ODINE KNOWS THERE'S A DAMN LIMIT BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAS A LIMIT, OKAY?

Odine 'knows' how the JME of the future works because he built a prototype. Though little more than a toy, it must somehow work, since he guesses that future, more powerful versions will be created as his working design is refined. It's not that hard of a conclusion to arrive at.

And please, elucidate which flaws you speak of. They must be pretty major to require such a big rewrite of the story that Square is supporting.