Quistis-Neglected?

[daggertrepe]

Yeah Quistis saved Squall's butt and he was like "Whatever ..." I mean Rinoa, as far as I can remember, has never saved Squall. Its been a while, but I cant recall and yet Quistis is brushed aside with the others.

She hasn't!? Hmmm.... I distinctly remember Rinoa saving Squall, uh...three times. First time was at the D-District Prison, when Rinoa kicked Irvine's cowardly ass into gear, and got him to go back for the others (which included Squall). Irvine was just going to abandon them. Because of Rinoa, the gang were able to escape from there.

The second time was far more significant: when Rinoa found Squall on his island (ah...metaphor) during Time Compression, and the strength of their combined wills transformed the desert wasteland into the flower field from "The Promise". If it hadn't been for Rinoa, Squally would have been lost in Time Compression forever - and never would have made his way back home.

Finally, Rinoa saved Squall in a more abstract sense.... She saved him from a lonely, miserable future, and the bottomless pit he was going to call life.

So, I think it's fair to say that Squall and Rinoa saved each other.... In contrast, Garnet NEVER saved Zidane - yet he saved her three times (from the Plant Brain in Evil Forest, from Brahne, when she was going to have Garnet executed, and from the crumbling Alexandria Castle at the beginning of disc 3). So, Squall and Rinoa's relationship is at least more equal than Zidane and Garnet's. I don't think the fact that Rinoa and Garnet - or any other FF female lead - had to be rescued is a reflection on their characters, it's simply a part of the Love Interest In RPG Syndrome. The big "rescue" scenes in RPG love stories are not there to show incompetence on the LI's part (although this is sometimes an unfortunate side effect), they're there to give the hero a chance to show off, and to show how much he cares.

Quistis was simply not important enough to be saved by Squall.

People (i.e. Rinoa haters) make out that Quistis is something that she's not, in an attempt to make Rinoa look worse by comparison. It's sad.

1. Don't go dissing Zidane and Garnet. Please. Look at the sig!
2. Quistis is EVERYTHING and Riona is poo-poo. Is there a problem that I like Quistis better? So what if I do? Shoot me.



And by the way, Quistis didn't NEED to be saved cuz she was strong and independant in a physical sense. It's not that she wasn't important enough! If she was in danger, I bet Squall would have saved her just the same, along with everyone else.

[Qurange]

Well, part of Quistis's character is that she was reliable in that sense, too.

But I don't think it helps the position to try to bash Rinoa to make Quistis look better, just as it bugs me when people bash Qusitis so that Rinoa looks better. Despite that it'd be understandable, /they/ don't act as if they hate each other by the end of the game, so why should we say they have to?

[daggertrepe]

I'm not saying they have to hate each other, I'm just saying that Riona isn't all that great. Quistis is just better, but she's neglected.

[Carl the Llama]

Yeah Quistis saved Squall's butt and he was like "Whatever ..." I mean Rinoa, as far as I can remember, has never saved Squall. Its been a while, but I cant recall and yet Quistis is brushed aside with the others.

forgive me for saying this but... when did she save him... i honestly cant remember

Rinoa saved him by makeing him open up to the love that was around him otherwise he would have spent his entire life just as a cold hearted barsted

I even think she shoulda hooked up with Squall. Psh, screw Rinoa, she's trash! Quistis woulda been hotter as a real person, and I'm even into brunettes. Hah!

the only reason you think that is cause she has a whip

[Qurange]

Is it weird that, despite the whip, I seriously doubt Quistis is into that kind of thing?

[daggertrepe]

Gosh, it was just a joke!

Quistis saved his ass with the machine gun when he was being chased by that monster in Dollet.

[Carl the Llama]

oh... well i never saw that as i always kill the thing... you get 50 ap for doing so

[scooby]

1. Don't go dissing Zidane and Garnet. Please. Look at the sig!
2. Quistis is EVERYTHING and Riona is poo-poo. Is there a problem that I like Quistis better? So what if I do? Shoot me.



And by the way, Quistis didn't NEED to be saved cuz she was strong and independent in a physical sense. It's not that she wasn't important enough! If she was in danger, I bet Squall would have saved her just the same, along with everyone else.

Reply to #1: I wasn't "dissing" Zidane and Garnet. I love them as a couple. Beautiful, heart-warming love story. Made me cry.

I was simply saying that Rinoa, unlike Garnet, saved her hero every now and then. Squall and Rinoa's relationship was less one-sided than Zidane and Garnet's in the deliverance department. That's all.

Reply to #2: Do you deliberately misspell Rinoa's name?

I think that, in the popularity stakes, Rinoa suffers from the Curse of the Lead Female/Love Interest, and Quistis benefits from being the "other". The (usually) older, cooler "other" is always favoured by fans over the LF/LI - whether it be Quistis over Rinoa, Freya over Garnet, or Rydia over Rosa.

But apart from occupying the desired "other female" spot in FFVIII, I really can't see what Quistis has going for her.

Part of an excellent post I found on the Advent Children.forums, by Deztiny, sums up my feelings about Quistis (vs. Rinoa, to an extent) better than I ever could.

"Quistis Is A Much Better Love Interest For Squall [than Rinoa]

Quistis isn't half as cool as people seem to think. She's insecure, emotional and unreliable. She's a terrible teacher. (She shows blatant favoritism towards Squall, reprimanding Seifer in class, but never reprimanding Squall. Not even in the mild "Just ignore him" way that Doctor Kadowaki does. Quistis has no idea who started the fight or why, whether Squall was the first one injured or Seifer. She's either making an assumption because she's biased in favor of Squall, or choosing not to discipline Squall because of her bias. Never mind the painfully obvious flirting with her student.) She's a terrible leader. (Deling City Sewers, anyone? Even Zell and Selphie realized leaving their post in the middle of a vital mission was stupid. It's the first and last time she's chosen to lead a mission when Squall's away.)

Squall is annoyed by her during their first scene together. He proceeds to be visibly annoyed by her in every scene where she anticipates one of his responses. "I'm finally starting to understand my student", says Quistis. "I'm more complex than you think," says Squall. And he is. For all the times that Quistis guesses what he'll say, she never shows any insight into what Squall is really thinking and feeling. He ignores her attempts at flirting. She literally has to order him to get him alone with her (and we all know how that goes, "Go talk to a wall"--Classic.)

With Rinoa, Squall willingly shares his thoughts and feelings. He shows an interest in things about her, and actually makes an effort to comfort her. None of which he ever does with Quistis, even the kinder, gentler Squall of later in the game has no meaningful interactions with her. He's much closer not only to Rinoa, but also Zell and Selphie. (Which IIRC is also the order he calls out for them when he's lost in Time Compression. Rinoa, Zell, Selphie, Quistis, Irvine and Rinoa and Rinoa and Rinoa.)"

I'd like to add to this that Quistis always seemed unhealthily...resigned to failure. After she's sacked from her job as an instructor for lacking "leadership qualities" (I quite agree with whoever made this decision, by the way), she says this, "...No leadership qualities... Failed instructor... Perhaps they're right...". I mean, what kind of an attitude is that!? She basically lures Squall to the "secret area" *coughmake-outspotcough* - under false pretences, I might add! - to tell him how sorry she feels for herself, and to wallow in self-pity in front of him! No wonder Squall's response was so harsh! In a desperate attempt to get him alone with her, she abused her authority over him by giving him a false order. I'm not surprised she got the sack! Terribly unprofessional behaviour!

Quistis' poor, and equally unprofessional, treatment of Seifer probably contributed to his breakdown. Seifer may be an ass, but he also has serious problems with self-control and anger management; he needed Quistis' special attention and support (more than Squall ever did!), not her ridicule. Quistis' putdowns to Seifer may seem funny to us, but they clearly made him feel (even more) insecure. Seifer was right: Squall was favoured by the staff of Balamb Garden - especially Quistis - despite the fact that Seifer was far more needy. Quistis failed (ah...that word again) Seifer as his instructor.

As their instructor, Quistis was an important and influential figure in Squall's and Seifer's lives, and she shouldn't have let her personal feelings, nor her history with them, colour her behaviour.

Reply to postscript: That's the point, though: story-wise, Quistis wasn't important enough to be put in danger. I'm sure that if Quistis was in danger, Squall would save her - but having such a scenario in the game would be a waste of valuable screen time that could be spent on Squall and Rinoa. Similarly, if Selphie, or Zell, or [insert friend here], were in danger, Squall would, of course, save them.... But Squall's relationships with Quistis and co. are not important enough to include such scenes in the game.

Every instance of Squall saving Rinoa (and vice versa) serves a purpose in the story. The "rescue" scenes in the game don't exist to show incompetence/weakness on Rinoa's or Squall's part (though their incompetence/weakness may be the reason they're in trouble, and need rescuing in the first place) - they exist to bring the two of them closer together. A rescue scene is a story device, that serves to further the connection between hero and heroine (in this case, Squall and Rinoa) and develop the mutual dependency between them.

As proof of this, it is interesting to note that most of the important interactions between Squall and Rinoa take place after one has saved the other. There are SEVEN! rescue scenes in the game (five are Squall saving Rinoa, and two are Rinoa saving Squall), and each is succeeded by an important Squall/Rinoa scene. So, I thought I'd go through them all...in chronological order....

In the first rescue scene of the game, Squall and Irvine saved Rinoa from a pair of ravenous Iguions who were about to eat her up. This was followed by the "stay close to me" scene, in which Squall tried his best to comfort Rinoa. She took his words to heart.

In the second, Rinoa indirectly saved Squall's and the others' lives, by bullying :chuckle: Irvine into going back to rescue them from the D-District Prison - where they were awaiting state execution. When Rinoa arrived at the prison, she seemed very relieved to see that Squall was all right ("Squall!!! (Squall's alive! I knew he would be. Squall's
ok!) Yeah!"); Squall seemed pretty happy to see her, too. I can't really remember, but I think they stood face to face for a little while...?

In the third rescue scene, Squall saved Rinoa from falling to her death, when she was hanging onto the side of the flying Balamb Garden by her fingertips. After they had landed back on solid ground, Rinoa thanked Squall for saving her. He was about to say something along the lines of "it was a pleasure", when his defence mechanism kicked in. He then proceeded to deny all responsibility for saving her, claiming that it was "everyone else's" idea, and that he just "happened" to find her :rolleyes2. Squall and Rinoa then had a conversation about Squall's ring, Griever, which Rinoa had "borrowed". Rinoa said she thought that Squall possessed the classic traits of a lion - courage, and pride - but he disagreed.

The fourth rescue scene in the game involved Squall donning a spacesuit and jumping into space to save Rinoa, who was drifting "out there", with a fast-dwindling oxygen supply. Once they were both safely back aboard the Ragnarok (and after they had dispatched a few pesky Propagators), the famous "eyes on me" scene in the Ragnarok cockpit unfolded. I don't think that needs a description.

Rescue number five saw Squall break Rinoa out of the Sorceress Memorial, where she was going to be sealed away forever. Afterwards, they shared a long, lingering hug - the embrace depicted in the game's logo. Rinoa tried to pull away from Squall, warning him that she was a sorceress, but he said, "I don't care" (that makes me cry... :weep, and held onto her fiercely.

In the sixth rescue scene, the gang (led by Squall) had to save Rinoa from the clutches of the eeeeevil Sorceress Adel. I can't remember what happened when you won the battle against Adel, but I seem to recall that Squall sunk to his knees dramatically and "gave up" if you lost (i.e. Rinoa died).

The final rescue (phew...) in the game happened when Squall got lost in Time Compression, and good ol' Rinoa searched long and hard to find him...finally stumbling across his unconscious body in a harsh desert wasteland. Rinoa held Squall, and, thinking him dead, cried over his body - before the heavens opened up and the desert terrain was transformed into "The" flower field. Presumably, sometime later they made it home together. The next (and last) time we saw the pair, they were star-gazing and canoodling on the Balamb Garden balcony.

The reason I just spent about...three hours typing all of that up, was to prove that every instance of Squall or Rinoa saving the other leads to some sort of important development in the relationship between the two. And Squall and Rinoa's relationship is of paramount importance in FFVIII - so not one of these instances are superfluous. Squall and Quistis' relationship, on the other hand, is of minimal importance. Apart from a couple of scenes between them early on, and a few group scenes here and there, they interact very little over the course of the game. A scenario in which Quistis was put in danger and Squall had to rescue her would serve no purpose. Likewise, a similar scenario with Selphie and Squall would serve no purpose. That's why no such scenes exist. Quistis and Selphie aren't any more capable than Rinoa, they are simply far less important to the story than her; that's why they don't get any big, exciting FMV scenes with the hero.

FFVIII revolves around three parallel love stories: the love story between Squall and Rinoa, the love story between Squall's parents (Laguna and Raine), and the love story between Squall's father (Laguna) and Rinoa's mother (Julia). Selphie, Irvine, Quistis and Zell - and Kiros and Ward in Laguna's story sequences - are filler characters - there to make up the required number of party members, and nothing more. Thus, any personalities they might have can be considered a bonus.

Now, if Quistis was the lead female/love interest in FFVIII, you can bet your bottom dollar that Squall would have to save her at some point. But, Quistis is not the LF/LI in the game - just a mere supporting character - so this is a dead end.

I'm going to stick with my original statement: Quistis was simply not important enough to be saved by Squall.

...I do like the Squall and Rinoa relationship, and I'm with you as far as the idea that it was more equitable...

? Equitable? The word "equitable" is an adjective derived from the noun "equity", which denotes an ideal of complete truth, justice and fairness. I don't think that's what you meant....

Edited to add: I'd just like to say, in case it wasn't already incredibly obvious from the rest of this post, that I don't like Quistis very much. Having said that, I'm not terribly fond of Rinoa, either - outside of her relationship with Squall. But I am a diehard Squall/Rinoa shipper (and I mean diehard!), and I would defend their relationship to the death.

For the record, Selphie is far and away my favourite FFVIII girl. But I wouldn't complain that my darling Selphie is "neglected", because I recognise that she is unimportant to the story of the game. Unimportant, but extremely likeable in her paper-thin role. There isn't really much more that Selphie could contribute to the game...but I accept her for the loveable cipher that she is.

[Qurange]

Why no, then, it's not what I meant! But, it's close. Reminds me not to post in a hurry. More fair than it's usually described, what with Rinoa not being a complete idiot. (Or much an idiot at all, I think.)

I do think that that post is /way/ too hard on Quistis, though, and doesn't take into account what probably happened off-screen, not to mention a number of in-game screens. Yes, she's insecure--that's part of the appeal to her character, that despite her status as this idol who achieves so much, she's actually /not/ perfect. Now, whether or not she's a good leader is irrelevant--I don't think she's so bad, for the most part, but again, the problem is that she sometimes lets her emotions get the better of her. Yes, she left the post in Deling City--but she /also/ led the group to complete the mission /anyway/.

More importantly, she develops as the game goes on; she actually gets through some of her issues, adopting a supporting role (which appears, to me, to be her strength, even in helping Garden administration after Squall becomes the Commander) and facing her deal with Squall.

More to the point, there's a scene that a lot of people forget, and that's the one on the Ragnarok after Squall comes back from the Moon Base. /Quistis/ is the one who calls him a fool and challenges him, like a /good/ teacher, to go after the girl (hey, Rinoa's still seventeen, which is why I can forgive /her/ faults, much like most of the group) he probably loves, after spending more than half of the game wanting him herself. And as for the fight with Seifer--Quistis has known these two for years. It's /always/ Seifer who starts the fight. That's implied directly in the game. Sure, it was unprofessional to flirt with him, but I get the idea that she was the sort of person to try to keep her other students at ease, too.

Sure, she has flaws, like every other member of the group. Maybe /you/ can't see what's going for her--but I can see a deep character who's trying to reconcile being almost as young as her friends and still being stuck in a position and mindset of authority, among other things. She mopes sometimes, but when it comes down to it, she actually gets the job done--and she only once made the mistake of doing so like she did in front of Squall--who she'd just hoped would be a friend, and maybe return /some/ of the feelings that she had. Mistake, but Squall was /still/ a jerk, there.

So, if you don't get the appeal, that's fine--but I think that it's unnecessarily abrasive to harp about her lack of importance and call her just a 'mere' supporting character. Without supporting characters, the story falls apart. They aren't just /filler/, they're a vital part /of/ that developing love story. Without friends, Squall and Rinoa's story would've made no sense. ...and as for Rinoa vs. Quistis in the realm of the love interest versus the 'other', I seriously doubt that's why most Quistis fans like her; if so, why aren't we all Selphie fans?

[daggertrepe]

Ok...you need to chill. You have WAYYY to much time if you write something THAT long. I didn't say I liked them together, Squall can go ahead and be with stupid Rinoa for all I care. All I'm saying is that-

1. Is Quistis was hanging from a cliff, SOMEONE would save her, whether it be Squall, Zell, or Irvine. They certainly wouldn't leave her hanging there!

2. I'm talking about her being neglected, not her being romantic with Squall.

3. In FFIX, for instance. Everyone got a shot at love, even poor Steiner. I just wish everyone esle would have gotten a chance, too.

4. Quistis rox, plain and simple. You make HER sound worse, and you're right. I make Rinoa sound worse. Now we're even, and I didn't even have to type a three hour essay.

5. Maybe Squall could have at LEAST been more freindlier with her. I don't give a crap if they get together, Seifer is better for her anyway!

But I must say, I didn't need THAT big of an answer. It was a clever answer, but, I mean, it's just a video game, not a politics arguement! I love Quistis cause she's Quistis, not cuz she's perfect. How could you say that you like a character, then say that they aren't important enough to the game or you. If you like a character, they should mean THE GAME to you. Not just a small role in pixels.

[Christmas]

She is never neglected when I go leveling in the island closest to Hell.

[daggertrepe]

Chistmas, seriously...

[~SapphireStar~]

forgive me for saying this but... when did she save him... i honestly cant remember

What? And Scooby you may or may not have noticed, but I did say:

Yeah Quistis saved Squall's butt and he was like "Whatever ..." I mean Rinoa, as far as I can remember, has never saved Squall. Its been a while, but I cant recall and yet Quistis is brushed aside with the others.

So why make sure to have a long damm rant at me when I havent played the game in a good few years? If you would have bothered to have read the rest of the post instead of jumping down my thoart over the first sentence, I did say I wasnt sure, so you can drop this

She hasn't!? Hmmm....

Little attitude right now.

[daggertrepe]

forgive me for saying this but... when did she save him... i honestly cant remember

What? And Scooby you may or may not have noticed, but I did say:

Yeah Quistis saved Squall's butt and he was like "Whatever ..." I mean Rinoa, as far as I can remember, has never saved Squall. Its been a while, but I cant recall and yet Quistis is brushed aside with the others.

So why make sure to have a long damm rant at me when I havent played the game in a good few years? If you would have bothered to have read the rest of the post instead of jumping down my thoart over the first sentence, I did say I wasnt sure, so you can drop this

She hasn't!? Hmmm....

Little attitude right now.

Saph's right. You don't need to get an attitude. All I did was state my opinion, and there you go off like fireworks!

[scooby]

Saph's right. You don't need to get an attitude. All I did was state my opinion, and there you go off like fireworks!

Yes - you stated your opinion, and then I stated mine. Your opinion is that, and I quote, "Quistis is EVERYTHING and Riona is poo-poo. Is there a problem that I like Quistis better? So what if I do? Shoot me."
So, your opinion is that Riona [sic] is "poo-poo". Well, pardon this Rinoa fan for having a problem with that blatant bit of character-bashing! However, I think I can be commended for replying to you with what I think was a well-written and carefully thought-out critique of Quistis' character, instead of a flat-out insult to her.

The apparent reason for this thread's existence is so that fans of FFVIII can discuss whether or not they feel that the character of Quistis was "neglected" in the game. I gave my opinion on this matter: I do NOT feel that Quistis was neglected; I feel that Quistis simply had nothing more to contribute to the game, and that there wasn't much more to her character than what we saw. I didn't realise that this thread was just an excuse for a bit of mindless Rinoa-bashing. Nor did I realise that people with different opinions to those of the thread-starter would be accused of having an "attitude problem". I apologise.

It's interesting that you defensively accused me of "dissing" Zidane/Garnet, when I was doing nothing of the sort. However, I am not permitted to jump to Rinoa's defence when she is clearly being bashed...? Doesn't seem fair....

Squall/Rinoa is very important to me. I have a lot of personal memories associated with the pair....

So why make sure to have a long damm rant at me when I havent played the game in a good few years? If you would have bothered to have read the rest of the post instead of jumping down my throat over the first sentence, I did say I wasnt sure...

Perhaps if you weren't sure you shouldn't have said anything?...instead of making negative assumptions about Rinoa that were bound to inflame her fans (she does have them, you know ).

You don't have to be so rude to me. I wasn't trying to be rude to you - even though it might have come across that way.

I wasn't having a "long rant" at you - I was reminding you of the times that Rinoa saved Squall, seeing as you had forgotten.

It's just the way I am, Saph. Meticulous. It's not personal....