In defense of Rosa

[*PaladinCecil*]

Thank you for letting me know, Sarc.

I guess I'll also let off some steam about Rosa's underratedness and Rydia's overratedness.

I'm also really sick all of the praise Rydia gets. Many Rydia fans bash on Rosa just so they can bloat up Rydia's ego even more. What even gets me more mad is people saying Rosa is ugly but saying Rydia is pretty and those people using fanart where Rydia's beauty is extremely exaggerated compared to what she looks like in the game. They make her hair so much longer than it actually is and make her much prettier than Square Enix really depicts her to the point where those fans practically made up their own character. It's one thing to lie about how pretty someone looks but using that to put down another character is uncalled for.

Also, using the argument that Rydia has a better personality than Rosa is also really biased. People always claim that Rosa is just a wuss and a damsel in distress while they say Rydia is so much more courageous than her. Rydia is also as much a wuss as Rosa seeing how she's afraid of even the thought of fire, she got knocked off the Fabulian boat first, and she starts crying over everyone that's died in the Eblana Cave. I'm not saying that Rosa is a better person than Rydia. They both are wusses in their own way and people who hate on Rosa and praise Rydia should acknowledge that fact.

One of the many reasons I like Rosa better than Rydia is because she's a more respectful and forgiving person than Rydia. Rosa doesn't mind the fact that Edge has feelings for her while Rydia hates him for it which shows that Rosa is a more tolerant and kind person than Rydia. Also, Rosa is really forgiving to those that offend her (like when Kain kidnapped her and almost had her sliced/crushed because he was jealous of Cecil) while Rydia isn't as forgiving (like when she attacked Cecil and Kain for unintentionally killing her mom). This shows that Rosa is a better character in some ways than Rydia. Also, unless the "before FFIV Rosa left Cecil for Kain" claim is proven to be true in FFIV DS I'm not even going to consider listening to that argument.

I think you're being a little over-critical toward Rydia for the way she acts and reacts in the game, but you're nowhere near as bad as the majority of people are when they talk about Rosa. It's pretty unanimous among people that Rosa is a weakling and a wuss for not being stronger than the main character when kidnapped in Fabul and not being dumb enough to resist and risk having her beloved Cecil murdered for it (my points here might only apply to the SNES version; the DS version goes differently where she doesn't get enough time to react). It's also pretty unanimous among people that Rosa's idiotic, weak and obsessive for crossing land, mountain and desert on her own in pursuit of Cecil because she loved him deeply and wanted to make sure her beloved didn't DIE. AND, I might add, with her Desert Fever being the only bad thing to happen to her as a result of her journeying alone. If THOSE sentiments are acceptable, I'd say seeing Rydia as a wuss for being afraid of fire is fair game.

I see strengths in both of them. Back when people weren't so hopped up on praising their green-haired goddess at every chance they could, Rosa and Rydia were more like opposite sides of the same coin. Things have changed in the past 15 years. I see the good parts of Rydia, but I can't appreciate them at all anymore because of what her fans have said and done about her and Rosa. I'm not being stubborn, I literally cannot appreciate Rydia as a character anymore, even if I try. I see what makes her a good character and it's empty and hollow to me. I feel nothing for her but a passing acknowledgement of what makes her what she is.

You got the dumping before FF4 thing reversed, the person claimed she was dating Kain but dumped him because Cecil had more power and that's all she cares about in a man. Which is a complete lie, I've even found a website someone made to post up their translation of a guide that says the exact opposite: that society and family constantly pressures her to go for Kain because he's of noble birth and discourages her from pursuing Cecil because of his dark knight class and unknown parentage, yet her heart belongs only to Cecil. But, people love to hate Rosa, so lies are acceptable.

[Elpizo]

While I can understand your frustration, letting that get the better of you when it comes to Rydia is just as bad, really.

I feel often the same when people say stupid things that are not true at all about FF III. I can't stand it at all how people give I and II all the credit, or see IV as THE game that did it ALL for the series when IV was nothing more but a compilation of all great things of I, II and III and barely did anything new. I hate how people underrate III's story and say it's an afterthought, while it's plot is right up with IV's and beats I and II's any day. I hate that very much, but what can I do about it? I fear I'll just have to allow people to live in ignorance and pitty them for their blindness. Same with Rosa, really.

I won't hide that I like Rydia more, but the thought that Rosa is a bad character never crossed my mind. IV was the 4th FF I played after FFTA, I and II. All of its characters were refreshing and new to me and I could enjoy them all very much, including Rosa. I just like children more in RPGs for some reason, and that's what Rydia is in the beginning of the game. Me liking her decreased a bit when she came back as an adult, bringing her on the same level as Rosa. And Rosa's nowhere near on a low level with me. Personally, I have more problems with Aeris or Yuna.

Just, don't let people's ignorance make you do things. Apparently you can't enjoy Rydia anymore because she's popular. That's a popular thing to do these days, hating things because they are popular. FF VII suffers from it, and Rydia suffers from it from you. Not good.

[*PaladinCecil*]

I don't hate Rydia. I can't appreciate what makes her a good character anymore. They're different. It's also not that Rydia's popular, not directly. It's that Rydia fans go on endlessly about how great she is, a large chunk of them intentionally ignoring or badmouthing Rosa while they build Rydia up as better than she really is, and Square-Enix is seeing the error of their ways in giving Rosa such focus at the beginning of their advertising for FF4 on the DS and have switched gears to Rydia now that they know better. Everyone's happy, Rydia gets to be flaunted and used while everyone (including the company that created these characters) brushes Rosa off to the side.

I wouldn't be so bothered if:

1) Rosa actually had a reasonable level of respect. Aeris and Tifa get bashed by people, but they at least have fan communities behind them. The same goes for Rinoa. Rosa has absolutely nothing. Usually, the best she gets is passing acceptance and acknowledgement of her existence in the game. Rydia takes all the spotlight, even when they're in a picture together and take up the same amount of space. It's hard to appreciate a character when people try to beat their own appreciation of that character into you constantly and refuse to look deeper into a character YOU appreciate, content in seeing that character as a complete failure.

2) If Square-Enix weren't catering to this heavy amount of fandom people have for Rydia so shamelessly. It's bad enough that the fans won't let up, now the company's set for the same path too.


I'm assuming you're talking about the remake version of FF3. Here's the critical difference. People DO appreciate that game. I see plenty of art being made of Refia (who, as a full-fledged character, didn't exist until 2-3 years ago.. and she already has a LOT, probably as much as Rosa or more), topics discussing it, etc. What I don't see is plenty of art being made for Rosa, and topics discussing her other than ones that talk about what she can do in gameplay or talking about how much people think she sucks. Yes, there's art. The only reason people know about it is because I went searching for it and found it several years after the fact, all alongside Rydia art that's been heavily circulated ever since it was made.

That's how bad it is. When people say something bad about her as a character, I rarely see someone speak up to say otherwise. When art is made for her, nobody touches it for as many as eight years. She's been repeatedly denounced as a bane on the series and a terrible depiction both of FF female leads and of female characters in general. I WANT people to look at her and not have their ONLY appreciation for her coming from being able to cast spells on the party or the fact that she has boobs.

I'm crazed, I know, but I wouldn't be this way if several months trying to point out that Rosa's a good character TOO didn't make it painfully obvious that the majority of people don't want to see the good things about Rosa. I'm sure I should be letting it lie, but part of me can't. Maybe it's because this is the closest people will ever get to thinking about her differently for more than five seconds, maybe it's because I spent months trying to show what's good about her and I'm compensating for an effort that was doomed to fail all along, I don't know. All I really know is that the way Rosa and Rydia are treated so differently, like Rosa's one of the worst things to ever come out of a Final Fantasy game and Rydia is one of the best, upsets me, and knowing there's nothing I can do to change what's firmly and unshakeably embedded in the minds of gamers makes it worse.

I'm at the point where I honestly don't want this game to come stateside because I know it'll just bring more overhyping and praise of Rydia (and in the midst of that, putting down of Rosa), and that I fully expect Rosa to die in The After because with Rosa so unpopular, they'd want to get rid of her, and that would be a prime way to do it while adding more depth and motivation to characters that people actually like.

[Elpizo]

No, I wasn't talking about III DS. I was talking about III in general. Also, I barely find any fanart for Refia, find any respect for Refia either. Refia's always described as the typical spunky FF girl. Joy.

And in general, you're getting too worked up over this. Go outside, take a hatchet and start mashing some things down. Print out milions of pictures of Rydia and destroy them in all ways possible if it makes you feel better. You'll have to deal with it unfortunately. Letting of steam in a civilized topic is good, but I do think you're coming close to being paranoid about this matter. And that my friend, is not healthy.

Also, point remains standing: you don't like Rydia anymore because fans shove her in front of Rosa. That's wrong. Tell me when Rydia ever asked for this and I'll be a happy person. Rydia's done nothing to deserve your dislike for her.

I also don't really want IV DS in english anymore, but that's because I think the game's crappy (though I hoped it would be otherwise).

[Roogle]

I think that Rosa will have a better chance to shine in Final Fantasy IV: The After.

It is important to note that she is perceived helpless mainly because she is not an aggressive character by any means, yet many fans tend to overlook that she is not simply a pushover. I hope that the localization of Final Fantasy IV DS enlightens fans on her personality and demeanor.

It can be difficult to like an underrated character, *PaladinCecil*, but at least you've done your research —

[*PaladinCecil*]

Thanks Roogle. I'm sort of bringing this post back from the dead by replying, but I feel that given the most recent topic posted by someone where they essentially bashed Rosa, it's important that I bring it back up. Plus, I actually do want to respond to you.

Recent stories and doujins have me upset. It sounds petty, but it's because of the way they portray Rosa so they can boost Rydia on a higher pedestal. In the fanfic I read, the writer tried to justify a relationship between Cecil and Rydia by having Rosa just suddenly leave out of the blue, no development or reasoning whatsoever except that she supposedly wanted to become the new Elder of Mysidia in the fashion of becoming a nun. Which makes absolutely no sense because the game makes it blatant that she's highly devoted to Cecil to the point she would travel any distance and risk her life out of love for him.

The doujins bothered me more. Both were of Rydia paired with Cecil, and in each, the artist portrayed Rydia as the "pure and innocent" type as she.. err.. copulates with Cecil. I don't have issue with the portrayal of Rydia here because her being pure and innocent is accurate, although a relationship between her and Cecil just would NOT happen. What really bothers me here: in both, Rosa is portrayed as a shameless slut, the type of women that loves sex, has no concept of good manners about the topic, and will do it with anyone. One involved her sleeping with Kain on the sly (only for a few panels, so they could justify Rydia and Cecil together without Rydia looking villainous for it) and the other had Rosa play the role of the devious, salacious slut that corrupts the pure, innocent Rydia into the act.

Neither one of these are Rosa at all. And it wouldn't bother me so much, if not for how readily people had believed The Man when he claimed Rosa used to date Kain but dumped him for Cecil because she's, saying it crassly, loose for whoever has more power and respect.

I'm quite seriously and honestly expecting that a year from now, majority opinion will be that Rosa is a shameless slut, and that Rydia has all of her traits PLUS all of the traits Rosa actually DOES have.

Maybe I'm being a bit delusional or neurotic, that's possible, but after a year of seeing things seemingly only get worse in regards to how people see her, despite all my attempts to get people to see her for who she really is (ignoring any parts of what I say that make her out to be MORE than she really is, which can happen from time to time), I really have no faith in people to know the difference between who Rosa really is and what's just a horrible mutilation of everything she is by some zealous Rydia fanboy or Rosa hater.

[Tamagon]

Both are pretty ty characters.

Also PaladinCecil, I do not know how you would find those doujins, because I looked in the obscurest of the obscurest hentai sites, and I could not find anything you described.

I only found one, and I just skipped to the last page, and I deleted it after I saw Cecil said "Yo Rydia"

Ever since then, I can't help but imagine Cecil as a gangsta.

Edit: Up yours censors D:

[*PaladinCecil*]

Both are pretty ty characters.

Also PaladinCecil, I do not know how you would find those doujins, because I looked in the obscurest of the obscurest hentai sites, and I could not find anything you described.

I only found one, and I just skipped to the last page, and I deleted it after I saw Cecil said "Yo Rydia"

Ever since then, I can't help but imagine Cecil as a gangsta.

Edit: Up yours censors D:

I don't know what obscure sites you're talking about then, because the one where you can find both, translated, is fairly well known now.

[NeoCracker]

Can't this thread just die now?

[*PaladinCecil*]

Can't this thread just die now?

Why? A recent thread kinda shows that it would be useful to keep it around to some extent.

[Karellen]

The thing is everything that can possibly be said on the subject has pretty much been said and you continually reviving it from reasons that range from people saying bad things about Rosa on a message board to Rosa being portrayed negatively in porn has become more then a little unseemly.

[*PaladinCecil*]

The thing is everything that can possibly be said on the subject has pretty much been said

And yet, a recent thread about Rosa boils down to being essentially the same topic as this one, just from the viewpoint I'm arguing against. Not only will maintaining this thread prevent repeat threads that all boil down to "I don't like Rosa" (since that would be something easily discussed here), it also means that points and arguments that people have don't need to be repeated in thread after thread because they're in fewer locations.

and you continually reviving it from reasons that range from people saying bad things about Rosa on a message board to Rosa being portrayed negatively in porn has become more then a little unseemly.

I've seen tons of badmouthing of the character while looking around online, far outweighing any praise she gets (which is typically limited only to healing she gets, and many are quick to discount her for that by mentioning Porom). There's what you've seen here (the porn, the lying about what some supposed foundation guide that nobody could see says about her, etc), there's people who have spun moments of hers into negatives (for example, suggesting she bullied Rydia on Mt. Hobs rather than providing needed comfort), having this around presents arguments in her favor before others can say bad things.

This might seem meaningless to you, but look at that other Rosa topic for a second. Nobody, NOBODY came to her defense before I looked here again, it was all "yeah, Rosa sucks!" If I hadn't checked back in, that would've passed right on by, as it always does unless I say something. That alone shows reason for this thread to persist, because if I'm not raising a voice in her favor, who WILL?


EDIT: The complaints about her portrayal in porn sound pointless too, I fully understand. If the situation were different, I'd be with you. Here's the thing: there are people out there looking for excuses to make her look bad. If the porn in question misrepresented all character horrendously, and if I had reason to believe people would know better, I wouldn't complain. The artist/writer skewed Rydia and Cecil, but they at least retained some semblance of who they are... and that sets people up for thinking Rosa's portrayed somewhat close to right. The doujin goes out of its way to make Rosa look like some corrupt, scandalous type. It even has a line in it where Cecil explicitly questions how Rosa could be a noble when she's acting the way the artist makes her act. And Rydia? She's portrayed as an innocent swayed into it by Rosa. I don't expect you to understand completely WHY it upsets me. You're used to doujins portraying characters wrong but people knowing better, which is the case for most; with Rosa, I'm used to people coming up with everything from "Rosa bullied this poor little girl!" to "Rosa looks like a super slut" to "Rosa's blonde!" as reasons to hate her, and that gives fuel to the fire. One person on a forum, supposedly just doing such twisting of events to make a point, even showed how easy it would be for people to twist her into looking like a slut by framing her coming to Cecil's bedroom at night in the worst possible light. That's why I care.

And don't worry, the hating her because she's blonde one made me laugh more than angry.

[Tamagon]

Complaining over porn is pretty silly.

I'd like to see some evidence of this "Rosa hate", as I have never seen too much Rosa hate. I'm not saying post porn, but these "posts" with Rosa hate.

Considering I don't see it anymore, I guess it went away.

[*PaladinCecil*]

Complaining over porn is pretty silly.

I'd like to see some evidence of this "Rosa hate", as I have never seen too much Rosa hate. I'm not saying post porn, but these "posts" with Rosa hate.

Considering I don't see it anymore, I guess it went away.

The trouble with trying to find something you know you've seen before is that you often can't find what you're looking for when you WANT to find it, it's when you DON'T want to find something that you come across it. I can't really afford to spend a ton of time hunting down things I KNOW are out there and I can't find, like the posts I found somewhere where people said they hated Rosa because she's blonde, but here are a few things. I'll start with something familiar.

Final Fantasy worsts (Contains FF7 spoilers) - Final Fantasy Republic Forums

TheMan's posted there, here, several other places with the same spiel about how Rosa supposedly dated Kain but dumped him for Cecil because she's loose for whoever has the most power (obviously not true). I've seen people actually believe this to be true, which is why the porn portrayal concerns me. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it if not for a couple posts down where someone says they hated Rosa for the same reasons, and finding repeated unquestioningly at various places, including GaiaOnline and deviantart.

Shadow Madness Classic

If you scroll down, or use Find to look for Rosa, and read the surrounding text, you'll discover something: this is another case where they saw a post by TheMan or someone repeated his claim and, without ever questioning its veracity, takes it as truth. I use this one for two reasons. One: it shows I'm not making it up that people actually believe the lie. Two: the link he uses as a reference is a link to this very forum, to a topic that no longer exists. This points out part of why it matters to me now to defend Rosa as a character here, AND it makes the point that some things I found in the past may not be online for viewing anymore.

Final Fantasy Wikiragon's Neck Colosseum/Archive V - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research

I believe I've posted this one before. The negative comments toward Rosa don't seem as bad as I remember them, or maybe I'm just getting desensitized? I don't know, but I mention this one particularly because someone says her DS outfit makes her "look like a super slut." This is a comment I've seen getting more of a voice as the DS version gets more recognition. It bothers me because it adds to the above issues (portrayal in porn and the lie spread about her) AND because given that I usually see Rosa put down in combination with Rydia being put up on a pedestal, I notice that even though Rydia shows much more skin, she's considered "sexy" instead of "slutty." Some people have explained this as because Rosa's clothes have a flesh tone while Rydia's are green and gold, but that shouldn't be all it takes. They're dressed about the same, Rydia with less cover. And if it isn't clear enough with the DS remake... Rydia's The After outfit has MUCH less cover compared to Rosa and THAT one is ALSO considered "sexy" instead of "slutty" by most people.

How Things Should Be - FF4 by ~rydiahighwind on deviantART

This one feels petty even to me, but I felt I had to show it to make it obvious there ARE people out there who despise this character with an unbridled passion, to the point where it's very certain they'd never be willing to see a speck of good in her, and would probably believe any number of bad things about her.

Here's some more from a least favorite character thread at CavesofNarshe:
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character
Caves of Narshe Forums -> Least fav Character

And more evidence of hatred of the character:
the Seikens Board / Final Fantasy IV DS English Trailer

Of course, another "worst character of all time" thread from your very own board:
http://forums.eyesonff.com/general-f...ml#post1210959

And this:
Women of Final Fantasy

You know this is everywhere, I only gave one link for it. THIS bothers me because it points out something I've been fighting the current and losing on for a while: "Rosa is the FF epitome of damsel-in-distress." Which, like the claim of Rosa being a whore that slept with Kain and dumped him for Cecil over desire for power, is not true. She had the misfortune of being the first female lead of her type, and so when this game was created, they had to focus on the traits that were THEN not as thoroughly grafted into the minds of gamers. What I've been TRYING to get is people to see the OTHER traits she has that are more subtle and subdued, that you don't get as much exposition on because it's thought by the developers that you'll grasp her personality well enough through things like consoling Rydia or following Cecil to Kaipo that the now more memorable scenes needed to take more precedence. As FF4DS was being developed, I actually hoped they'd add a ton more scenes for Rosa because she's been thoroughly unjustly maligned for the crime of being the first of her type.


If I took more time, I know I could uncover plenty of other things I've found in the past that back each aspect of my concerns, but I don't have the time. I only gave a couple glimpses into eyesonff because I assume you've seen or can find the worse posts I've seen here that put her down (the worst character poll from eyesonff that I linked to is actually the least of them).

[Tamagon]

Regarding Rosa's DS design.

I DID take a double-take to be sure it wasn't an edited image.

It DOES look like she's wearing purple panties :x