A simple, easy theory

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Dude... WTF is wrong with you? Why are you adamant of breaking down dismissing ANY view of Para-Magic Mechanics other than your own? If someone were to say that Para-Magic is excess of the Sorceress Power since there is always a Sorceress even till the time of Ultimecia; Even after Ultimecia's defeat Rinoa is still a Sorceress and if she is not to become Ultimecia, then there will be a succession of witches after her until Ultimecia is born, killed, and looped back to Edea... But now let's get back to you and your "Elite Theorists"... LOL:rolleyes2

"Red herring. Twice. What monsters can do is irrelevant to what humans can do."

How is that irrelevent? That gives examples that organisms can use Para-Magic by nature.

"And we are not arguing that is is impossible to cast without a GF. We are arguing that for normal humans, paramagic is not possible WITHOUT ASSISTANCE."

First off, let's not argue. It's not necessary. I state my view, you state your's, everyone states their's and maybe we can put it all together. I never dismissed the JME, I just didn't understand it. After your posts I imagine that you're linking it to Materia. Which is not a bad way to see it. I don't understand why is it so 'wrong' that I think it's a dormant ability used by all, but requires training.

"You mean like in FF6, where they needed the assistance of Espers to learn magic, or in FF7, where Materia was the conduit for magic?"

Yes, and those infused with Magitek were able to use magic as well. But before hand the Magi were able to use Magics and then they found the awesome power of the Espers.

"I find you very interesting. At one point, you denounce the words of Odine, the man who said JME exists, but now you are twisting his words to support your ideas."

And I find you very petty. Chill out man. I did not denounce Odine's words... I just said that he was speaking out of hyperbole (much like you) about a machine that he hadn't invented yet; much like you're denouncing any ideals other than your own until it's concedede that your "theory" and ONLY your "theory" is "fact" in a FANTASY... wait for this one... GAME!!!
Have a coke and a smile dude, or snort some, whatever it takes for you to not take this so damn seriously.

"Besides, did it not occur to you that he meant the GFs power itself, the stat junctioning, or other GF related abilities?"

.... It's almost enough to make me cry... Are you listening to yourself? How do YOU know what Odine meant more than I do? Look back at your statement. Now I hope you know I'm just mirroring you right now. If you don't understand keep reading.

"Squall had a GF before he was a SeeD. Seifer could have had one junctioned as well, and since Squall says Seifer cheated, it's likely he had one equipped and used it to cast the fire spell in the op."

I guess you know this because you were there. Now I know what you're going to say... But wait. I'll say it for you. Squall was assigned as we see from his desk computer. But he wasn't junctioned to it as far we, as you would say: see in the game. And yes, Seifer could have been junctioned to a GF as you say, but again... You said could.... Which is... what's that big word you love to use... oh, "Postulate".

Do you see what I'm saying to you now? You're just being petty and attacking my views because you want to be right when you never can be... Neither one of can. I don't want to argue over 'facts' when there can be none... You're trying to base 'facts' of what you see on "FANTASY"... There are NO FACTS. STOP TEARING APART EVERYONE'S ELSE'S views or interpetations on an underdeveloped aspect of the story. It's like Star Wars... Lucas created it. For years fans made endless theories of how the "Force" works. And then after 20 years Lucas comes up with "Medicholorians" and all these "expert fans" nearly threw up at the idea. I didn't really buy into it either, but I just shrugged... It's HIS creation, do what he want with it, who are we to say? We are not the creators so all we can do is have fun and make up our own fantasies or 'theories/conclusions' to our hearts desire.

"If they were trained as such, one would expect the SeeDs we have to be able to use Para Magic despite junction status. They cannot."

And... you know this because... uh... YOU were a SeeD. You were there. You took all the classes so you KNOW EXACTLY how to use Para-Magic, right? It's Fantasy, and you're looking at it from the 'gameplay' aspect. One sided view and I'm looking at from both sides. The enemies can use Para-Magic and Balamb is the only one that experiments with GFs, which are apparently not necessary to use Para-Magic.

(sigh):rolleyes2 Again, this is open to speculation. Monsters use Para-Magic, Soldiers use Para-Magic, ect, ect. No conclusive results except that Para-Magic exists and a lotta people can use it. Even without Junctioning to a GF. If you wanna 'postulate' on that, if I were Irvine or Selphie and I just joined up with the SeeDs... You think I'm gonna go into battle without the awesomeness of a GF? Or maybe SeeDs are trained to use a GF and they've just become accustomed to using Para-Magic only when junctions because of the huge amount of 'stocked' energy at their disposal instead of being at the disadvantage like their enemies that fall at the might of the All Powerful SeeD! (Was that a little over the top?) Do you see how I'm doing to you what you've been doing to me and others?

This fits right there with your 'could' about Seifer. And the JME, and "what Odine meant"... It's FANTASY... It's a GAME... THERE ARE NO FACTS...

"Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF."

Pfft!... JME's do not exist... yet, because Odine hasn't invented one yet. He's studying Ellone's... 'gift' but has yet to make one. Also, you're only looking at "The Party", but everyone, scratch that, everyTHING else can... I see it natural, you see it other wise. Some see it as Hyne's Power or the presence of the Sorceress Power.

"Parsimony, it is violated."

See there you go again. Like you're God and just blatantly attacking whatever I say. Not 'defending' your 'theory'. This is where I see you as just being plan petty... It's sad. No one's right, and no one's wrong. But you can't accept that. You keep pulling things outta the air, out of frame, your @$$ or wherever you can to knock down, attack, and only support your 'theory' when you're 'postulating' just as much as any of the 'postulates' that don't agree to what you believe, oh, I mean theorize with Theories Of Fantasy. You're trying to put yourself up there like you're God and "Violate" anything. And you said it like you were The God. "Parsimony/Blasphemy, it is violated." Insert booming voice, thunder and lightening, ect, ect. FX). LOL

And puh-lease... Stop using huge thesaurical words. We all already know how omnipotent your knowledge is of fantasy... :laughing: And don't even bother trying to insult my intelligence. I would see that coming and that would just make you look even more petty. Do you see how me insulting you directly like do me and others works? Yeah. It's predictable... and pathetic, isn't it? But apparently, I have to get down nearly to your level... BTW: You wanna pony? While you're down there I can make you a little 'horse'. Oh, I am sooooo evil... I'm sorry. Blame that one on the Icehouse...

"If our theory fits better with established facts with fewer additional terms, it is by default better."

You sound like Viator: "Then the creators are wrong!" And You/We are NOT the creators.

As I've already said... There are no facts in fantasy. Stop trying to make yourself/selves the writers. Stick the fan-fiction. That's why started writing these 'theories' of mine a long time ago... It was suppose to be part of a fan-fic called "Diary Of A SeeD". Posted in the story forum years ago, but never finished... Under FAN-FICTION, emphasis on the FICTION.... You no 'facts' no more than the other person... only perspectives. Because that's all any of us can really do in this GAME... PERCIEVE. Play and percieve. The only 'default' are the character's names and the story.

"You are wrong because you disagree with the game, not to mention your violations of parsimony."

Now there you go again using that big mouthed brain full of vocabulary again to announce like you're God again... And didn't you just commit parsimony with that very statement? Uh-huh... I thought so...
My personal opinions of the game have NOTHING to with this. I may not like the game's story, but I did enjoy the fantasy aspect. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered to come up with these views on Para-Magic. Heck, I wanted this to be 'good' discussion and get more perspectives. I like the JME idea... I just didn't share the viewpoint. And I can live with that...

AAAAAND with that.... I told you... stop hittin' the table! (aka, I told you, don't start no $#!+ with me!)
Hey, I love that song, and Chappelle, what can I say?

Now, as tradition serves... I think now is when the MODS will close this thread. Mostly after I've finally busted a cap. And it's well that they do... I wanted this to be peaceful and not get into a MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS deal.

Now to the Mods. Please, PLEASE do not 'ban' me. I did not start the slugging. Read back and understand that I tried to reciprecate and move along. I even warned him and if you are the MODs of Old... you know I could get. Let's end this... Or not. Something like this will more than likely pop up again... And I'll be there.

Good night, and Good Journey. (Yeah, I'm a MOTU Fan)

[Sir Bahamut]

You know, if you can't take it that others argue logically against your theory because they think it's not really valid, then you probably shouldn't have started participating in a logical debate anyway. You can't just go "I think [theory] because [arguments]" and then flip out when someone actually tries arguing against you...

[Omnislash07]

In my earlier post I was not saying that it was impossible to cast magic without the aid of a GF, there could be other ways like the JM, I was saying that it is not an inate ability of the people in the FF 8 world. If it were possible to cast magic without a GF or some other aid then the main characters would be able to.

Also the inate ability of monsters to cast magic does not really apply since technically GFs are also monsters and so you could assume that all monsters are just magically inclined and so they are able to use magic. Or if you dont like that you could even assume that monsters could be able to junction GFs considering that Selphie even says that she found a GF inside a monster.

[f f freak]

Okay I just wanted to say this and some of you are saying that no one can cast magic without a GF. The Galbadian soldiers can cast magic but they never summon a GF. Also the main characters are able to Draw GF's so why can't they draw all of the summons away from the soldiers so they can't use them. Well now this is just a theory based on what I think some random person walking on the second floor of Balamb garden before you go to the Fire Cavern. I can't remember exactly what he says but he has already been to the Fire cavern so he has obtained a GF. Well what if that GF was Ifrit as well. Maybe that is why you can't draw the GF's from the galbadian soldiers. Because you already have the GF they have. This is just a Theory and there isn't that much evidence to support it I know but to me this has always made sense.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I still think it's an innate ability. Squall touches his forehead as if focusing mentally when casting Para-Magic or Summoning. This is why never thought there were no technology or devices involved, just telepath and telekenisis manipulating energy.

Also, because it is a natural with monsters I don't see how this excludes humans...

And not all GFs are 'monsters'. Odin is... something. Gilgamesh is an interdimensional anamoly, Eden is a Time Machine, Quesecotal seems to be quasi-sentient energy, but almost all seem to be more than just monsters. Too me they seem like inter-dimensional beings like Odin, maybe 'Old Gods'. But something less connected with monsters. Halflings.

So like I was sayin'...

I think that some Para-Magic effects are telepathic...

Meteor for example is powerful illusion and can the only defense against is the psi-screen effect known as "Shell". The physical telekenetic shield known as "Protect" has no effective defense at all against meteor.

These are just a two examples....

[Ryushikaze]

Dude... WTF is wrong with you? Why are you adamant of breaking down dismissing ANY view of Para-Magic Mechanics other than your own?

I'm not. I'm opposed to theories which disagree with the observed evidence and which violate parsimony six ways to sunday.

If someone were to say that Para-Magic is excess of the Sorceress Power since there is always a Sorceress even till the time of Ultimecia; Even after Ultimecia's defeat Rinoa is still a Sorceress and if she is not to become Ultimecia, then there will be a succession of witches after her until Ultimecia is born, killed, and looped back to Edea... But now let's get back to you and your "Elite Theorists"... LOL

I would expect them to show evidence to support their theory, at the very least.

How is that irrelevent? That gives examples that organisms can use Para-Magic by nature.

Yes, and we also have examples that show humans cannot use para-magic without outside assistance.

First off, let's not argue. It's not necessary. I state my view, you state your's, everyone states their's and maybe we can put it all together. I never dismissed the JME, I just didn't understand it. After your posts I imagine that you're linking it to Materia. Which is not a bad way to see it. I don't understand why is it so 'wrong' that I think it's a dormant ability used by all, but requires training.

Because if it was an ability that required training, it would only make sense for the SeeDs, IE: Your party- to have this hitherto unspoken of skill. They do not.

Yes, and those infused with Magitek were able to use magic as well. But before hand the Magi were able to use Magics and then they found the awesome power of the Espers.

You miss the point. The point is that the party does not always naturally have the power to cast magic.

And I find you very petty. Chill out man. I did not denounce Odine's words... I just said that he was speaking out of hyperbole (much like you) about a machine that he hadn't invented yet;

Yet which he spoke of as existing.

much like you're denouncing any ideals other than your own until it's concedede that your "theory" and ONLY your "theory" is "fact" in a FANTASY... wait for this one... GAME!!!

really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. If someone can present a superior theory than exists, I'll accept it. Yours is not superior.

Have a coke and a smile dude, or snort some, whatever it takes for you to not take this so damn seriously.

I'm the one taking this seriously, huh?

.... It's almost enough to make me cry... Are you listening to yourself? How do YOU know what Odine meant more than I do? Look back at your statement. Now I hope you know I'm just mirroring you right now. If you don't understand keep reading.

Your entire point was that 'Odine said A, which means B, which proves C." Given that A can mean Q, Z, or FE7N, your logic does not necessarily follow.

I guess you know this because you were there. Now I know what you're going to say... But wait. I'll say it for you. Squall was assigned as we see from his desk computer. But he wasn't junctioned to it as far we, as you would say: see in the game. And yes, Seifer could have been junctioned to a GF as you say, but again... You said could.... Which is... what's that big word you love to use... oh, "Postulate".

Now that is a mass of sentence fragments. Oh, and if you feel like trying to throw my words back at me, try harder.
If Seifer could, in fact, cast para-magic sans aid of GF, then why, oh why, does he not choose to do this later in the game, when he is actually a part of your party? In a situation where such free use of magic would actually matter?

Do you see what I'm saying to you now? You're just being petty and attacking my views because you want to be right when you never can be... Neither one of can. I don't want to argue over 'facts' when there can be none... You're trying to base 'facts' of what you see on "FANTASY"... There are NO FACTS. STOP TEARING APART EVERYONE'S ELSE'S views or interpetations on an underdeveloped aspect of the story. It's like Star Wars... Lucas created it. For years fans made endless theories of how the "Force" works. And then after 20 years Lucas comes up with "Medicholorians" and all these "expert fans" nearly threw up at the idea. I didn't really buy into it either, but I just shrugged... It's HIS creation, do what he want with it, who are we to say? We are not the creators so all we can do is have fun and make up our own fantasies or 'theories/conclusions' to our hearts desire.

There are no points here. One can draw conclusions from given evidence, whether in fantasy or science fiction. The more in line with what is observed, the better.

And... you know this because... uh... YOU were a SeeD. You were there. You took all the classes so you KNOW EXACTLY how to use Para-Magic, right? It's Fantasy, and you're looking at it from the 'gameplay' aspect. One sided view and I'm looking at from both sides. The enemies can use Para-Magic and Balamb is the only one that experiments with GFs, which are apparently not necessary to use Para-Magic.

Appeal to ignorance. I'm also curious what you're basing your arguments on, other than gameplay, since the only instances of magic used outside of battle are by people from Balamb or by sorceresses.

(sigh) Again, this is open to speculation. Monsters use Para-Magic, Soldiers use Para-Magic, ect, ect. No conclusive results except that Para-Magic exists and a lotta people can use it. Even without Junctioning to a GF. If you wanna 'postulate' on that, if I were Irvine or Selphie and I just joined up with the SeeDs... You think I'm gonna go into battle without the awesomeness of a GF? Or maybe SeeDs are trained to use a GF and they've just become accustomed to using Para-Magic only when junctions because of the huge amount of 'stocked' energy at their disposal instead of being at the disadvantage like their enemies that fall at the might of the All Powerful SeeD! (Was that a little over the top?) Do you see how I'm doing to you what you've been doing to me and others?

No, I see you making up a bizarre explanation with little to no evidence which really doesn't make sense.

This fits right there with your 'could' about Seifer. And the JME, and "what Odine meant"... It's FANTASY... It's a GAME... THERE ARE NO FACTS...

Fact: Squall is a brown haired, male, gunblade weilding, resident of Balamb Garden who has become a SeeD.
There are facts, even in fiction. It's called suspension of disbelief.

"Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF."

Pfft!... JME's do not exist... yet, because Odine hasn't invented one yet. He's studying Ellone's... 'gift' but has yet to make one.

Or has he?

"Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you. It iz because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power. It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'!

It was easy enough to mechanize. Currently, it's a toy, but it will eventually be powerful enough to reach across the ages. He made the first model of the machine. Except for the parts about the future potential of the machine, he speaks entirely in the past tense. It is already done.

Also, you're only looking at "The Party", but everyone, scratch that, everyTHING else can... I see it natural, you see it other wise. Some see it as Hyne's Power or the presence of the Sorceress Power.

So, someway, somehow, the party was having a smoke break when the rest of humanity was given the 'how to cast paramagic without some form of assistance' lesson.

See there you go again. Like you're God and just blatantly attacking whatever I say. Not 'defending' your 'theory'. This is where I see you as just being plan petty... It's sad. No one's right, and no one's wrong. But you can't accept that. You keep pulling things outta the air, out of frame, your @$$ or wherever you can to knock down, attack, and only support your 'theory' when you're 'postulating' just as much as any of the 'postulates' that don't agree to what you believe, oh, I mean theorize with Theories Of Fantasy. You're trying to put yourself up there like you're God and "Violate" anything. And you said it like you were The God. "Parsimony/Blasphemy, it is violated." Insert booming voice, thunder and lightening, ect, ect. FX). LOL

1- I don't have to defend a theory to point out flaws in yours, such as when it is violating parsimony.
2- Even scientists are merely postulating. But at least they have the common sense to postulate within the framework of given evidence.
3- No. I am above god. I exist.

And puh-lease... Stop using huge thesaurical words. We all already know how omnipotent your knowledge is of fantasy... And don't even bother trying to insult my intelligence. I would see that coming and that would just make you look even more petty. Do you see how me insulting you directly like do me and others works? Yeah. It's predictable... and pathetic, isn't it? But apparently, I have to get down nearly to your level... BTW: You wanna pony? While you're down there I can make you a little 'horse'. Oh, I am sooooo evil... I'm sorry. Blame that one on the Icehouse...

Firstly, Such words are what you use in this situation. Secondly, why would I insult your intelligence? Thirdly, if you are speaking of the same Icehouse I am thinking of, don't theorize or argue while intoxicated. Not a good idea.

You sound like Viator: "Then the creators are wrong!" And You/We are NOT the creators.

I'm not disagreeing with the creators. In fact, I am trying my damndest to figure out the world they have created, by sticking to what they have presented, and materials they have published about that world.

As I've already said... There are no facts in fantasy. Stop trying to make yourself/selves the writers. Stick the fan-fiction. That's why started writing these 'theories' of mine a long time ago... It was suppose to be part of a fan-fic called "Diary Of A SeeD". Posted in the story forum years ago, but never finished... Under FAN-FICTION, emphasis on the FICTION.... You no 'facts' no more than the other person... only perspectives. Because that's all any of us can really do in this GAME... PERCIEVE. Play and percieve. The only 'default' are the character's names and the story.

This is so wrong I don't know where to start. There are facts in fiction, at least within the framework of the fiction itself.

Now there you go again using that big mouthed brain full of vocabulary again to announce like you're God again... And didn't you just commit parsimony with that very statement? Uh-huh... I thought so...

You have no gorram idea what you're talking about, do you? Committing parsimony is a GOOD thing.

Now, as tradition serves... I think now is when the MODS will close this thread. Mostly after I've finally busted a cap. And it's well that they do... I wanted this to be peaceful and not get into a MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS deal.

Then don't come into a theory thread. Theory is SUPPOSED to be dissected, rejected, and refined. Coming in here and expecting 'nice nice' is just silly.

I still think it's an innate ability. Squall touches his forehead as if focusing mentally when casting Para-Magic or Summoning. This is why never thought there were no technology or devices involved, just telepath and telekenisis manipulating energy.

So, since Squall touches his forhead, when no other caster, period, does anything similar, you think it's telekinesis? Color me exceedingly unconvinced.
-Note, I won't touch telepathic manipulation of energy, since telepathy is purely communication by definition-

Also, because it is a natural with monsters I don't see how this excludes humans...

Monsters!= humans. Of the humans we have direct experience with, none can cast para-magic solely on their own.

I think that some Para-Magic effects are telepathic...

Meteor for example is powerful illusion and can the only defense against is the psi-screen effect known as "Shell". The physical telekenetic shield known as "Protect" has no effective defense at all against meteor.

These are just a two examples....

Remember that big speech about Star Wars, fantasy not having facts, and accusing me of acting like Viator? You just made all of it, and I mean ALL of it meaningless with that quote.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Whatever... Biggs and Wedge can use Para-Magic and that's good enough for me.

Now then... Whenever Meteor is cast, Protect does nothing, but Shell does show evidence of trying to buffer the illusionary attack, by what I've seen. So I rather believe that it's an illusionary/telepathic attack. The background turning into space?

I figure it's similar Final Fantasy Tactics where those that do not have faith are not affected by magic attack. Like Steelworker 8, who has no faith and does not believe in magic, only logic. Summoners cast illusions, Holy Knights attack the mind, and ect. ect.

Also, however the means others than SeeDs are able to use Para-Magic, it is reasonable to believe that they can not draw or stock at SeeDs do. Therefore, they must cast whatever energies for Para-Magic are present, yes?