Once again, The FF7 Romance Debate.

[Ryushikaze]

You'll note I didn't call it the "Love Triangle" debate. That's because this isn't going to be your typical Aerith Vs Tifa debate for two reasons. Firstly, I think Aerith had as much chance as Yuffie, and secondly and more importantly, we're starting from square one- meaning all the girls, Including Yuffie and possibly others, are treated as having equal starting validity, IE: none. We will also be treating this like an actual debate.

What that means is rather simple. The love 'debate' started with 'he loves so and so' 'Nu uh! He loves so and so!', without any evidence to speak of, and it was largely an ad populum shouting match. Instead, we will begin from the very basics, and look for evidence to support our positions. And I do mean evidence. Not color theory, vague symbolism, or any such nonsense.

By the by, any claim made WILL be expected to be backed up by relevant evidence, analyzed in context.

Evidence can be gleamed from any part of the compilation- and heck, to make it interesting, we can allow evidence from other games, though appropriately weighted for not being part of FF7. Keep note that variable text can be used as evidence under two conditions- 1. Either it does not include Cloud's variable text, or 2. the variable text reveals basically the same thing.

Me? I'll be joining in the debate later, but first I'd like to see the arguments the shippers come up with to support their positions.

So run along and construct those arguments. Go go.

[Aralith]

Well, I believe that Aerith was the one whom Cloud had (or should have) really fallen in love with. I say should have because of the fact that depending on how one plays the game, they can effect the affection values for each character. I admit that I have not had the chance to take even Tifa on a date in the game (would have but currently my copy of VII is lent out to someone) and therefore only have the game script to give me knowledge of the other dates.

While it is entirely possible to also date Yuffie and even Barret (never understood that) I do not believe that they are true candidates for the following reason. Cloud never really shows any interest in Yuffie, even when you take her out that she and Cloud don't really seem to have a connection (despite the fact that she's the only one that you can kiss) as she acts hyper like her normal self and I just can't see Cloud with that. He's much to calm for her.

Then the obvious reason that I Cloud just wouldn't be with Barret because he's not gay. Even on the "date" they don't really act at all like it's a date. More just like two friends that just weren't used to being able to talk alone.

So, now it's pretty much down to just Tifa and Aerith. So, now I'm going to examine the reasons why those two may or may not be good for Cloud.

Aerith is good for Cloud for several reasons. She is kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, and very strong-minded. She had a connection with Cloud on a very deep level, one that even Tifa could never seem to find. When Aerith and Cloud went on a date, she said, "I want to meet the real you." Now, this is pretty much the only way that this line could have been translated, but in Japanese this phrase has a much deeper meaning to it. To meet someone is to know their soul in a very deep and connecting way. This is pretty clear proof that at least Aerith had feelings for Cloud, even if he didn't return them (which I contend that he did).

Now, there are several things that would point to Aerith and Cloud not being together as well, which (for the sake of remaining unbiased) I will discuss as well. One of these is the so-called "innocence" of Aerith. This is so not true. Aerith is far from innocent, everything from her comments about Tifa and Cloud to trying to swindle some guys out of a good deal of money would prove this. Another point is that Aerith has not known Cloud nearly as long as Tifa has.

Now, there are also many reasons why Tifa and Cloud would be good together. They have known each other since childhood and Cloud pretty much adored Tifa then. Also, Tifa has a much more self-sacrificing trait than Aerith. She definitely cares for Cloud, because she always seems to be hurt when Aerith makes the careless comments about Tifa and Cloud that I spoke of earlier.

There are also reasons why Tifa and Cloud shouldn't be together. Like I said earlier, Cloud almost glamorized Tifa, while she seemed to ignore him (we found this out in Cloud's memory in the lifestream) and this may have turned her off for a while. They weren't nearly the childhood friends they thought they were in the beginning. Tifa obviously didn't know Cloud well enough to know if she should tell him the truth about the Nibelheim incident, and ended up not telling him, which in the end nearly destroyed him.

Overall, the only two true contenders for Cloud's love are Tifa and Aerith, and with the evidence it becomes more a matter of interpretation and gameplay that decides who Cloud gives his heart to. I for one prefer Aerith over Tifa just because of my preferences and such, and therefore I believe that it should be Cloud and Aerith, though I believe that those who think it's Cloud and Tifa are just as justified as I am in their beliefs.

[Ryushikaze]

Huh. And I thought the thread was going to be dead in the water.

An interesting read. Kind of off topic, since the topic was who Cloud is in love with, now who is best for him, but schmeh. There are a couple of things I'd like to respond to though.

Aerith is good for Cloud for several reasons. She is kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, and very strong-minded.

Not that this is untrue, but the way it is presented, it seems to present itself as polarized to Tifa, who shares those qualities. Not saying that it's your intention, but eh.

She had a connection with Cloud on a very deep level, one that even Tifa could never seem to find.

Now this is blatantly untrue, and Aerith herself admits it. In the lifestream, where one's heart is on their sleeve to Aerith, she cannot connect to Cloud, and realizes on Tifa can.

When Aerith and Cloud went on a date, she said, "I want to meet the real you." Now, this is pretty much the only way that this line could have been translated, but in Japanese this phrase has a much deeper meaning to it. To meet someone is to know their soul in a very deep and connecting way. This is pretty clear proof that at least Aerith had feelings for Cloud, even if he didn't return them (which I contend that he did).

Uh... not necessarily. I speak a fair amount of the language, and you can know someone without it being a soul connection.

By the By, the entire point of this thread, as mentioned, it to empirically support who Cloud had feelings for, so simply stating that you think he did won't cut it.

Tifa obviously didn't know Cloud well enough to know if she should tell him the truth about the Nibelheim incident, and ended up not telling him, which in the end nearly destroyed him.

Actually, she wasn't sure who was correct about Nibleheim, since though to her knowledge he was never there, he knew numerous things he could have only known were he there, which made her hesistant to speak out. She was also worried that he would vanish again/ break down if she confronted him, and she was worried about that happening.

Overall, the only two true contenders for Cloud's love are Tifa and Aerith, and with the evidence it becomes more a matter of interpretation and gameplay that decides who Cloud gives his heart to. I for one prefer Aerith over Tifa just because of my preferences and such, and therefore I believe that it should be Cloud and Aerith, though I believe that those who think it's Cloud and Tifa are just as justified as I am in their beliefs.

Well, with Reunion files, Case of Tifa, and Maiden who travels the planet, I think we're a lot more justified, evidence wise.

[Zeromus_X]

*No, I'm not writing an essay on the subject*

Well, it's my personal opinion that Cloud and Aerith would be a neat couple. Doesn't mean I think they'll get together, because, well, they don't and can't, really.* With all the evidence from the novellas, the way they act in the game, and apparently the creators have even stated that Cloud and Tifa get together, I'm led to believe that they will, in fact, get together at some point in the game's timeline (if they aren't in a relationship in Advent Children already). As if it weren't obvious enough in the game, from their 'childhood friendship', the scene at the end of Disc 2 (even though they could very well be playing Checkers), and well, it's just plain obvious.

But Yuffie and Cloud would make a cute (albeit strange..) couple.

[Aralith]

Why, you're right Ryushikaze, I did get a bit off topic. Didn't even realize it. I apologize. To stay on topic, I will only say this. In the game, one is given the choice as to who they care for more, and this can most certainly be seen as love. As for outside of the game, there are a few points on each side, but AC didn' really answer that question. However, I still say that Cloud loves Aerith.

First off, in AC, Cloud is still lamenting over Aerith's death. Still blames himself, and still feels unforgiven. He feels the same way about Zack, but his connection with Aerith's death seems much more personal. In the case of Zack, there wasn't much he could do, but with Aerith, he felt that if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth at that time that he could have stopped it.

Also, he is living in Aerith's church, and is constantly talking about being forgiven. It is clear that Aerith's death still haunts him in a much deeper way than it haunted anyone else. Perhaps more than he should be. Though Cloud was up there on the alter being controlled by Sephiroth, it was as much his fault as anyone's elses. It wouldn't have mattered if Tifa was up there. Sephiroth would still have come down and killed her. There are a number of things blinding Cloud from this truth, but I believe that love is one of them.

Love can make people feel things that they shouldn't. It is not dissimiliar to when a child feels responsible for the divorce of his parents, or when a woman may think that she drove her partner to cheat on her. Neither of these are true, but love blinds them from that. I believe the same thing happened to Cloud, and this is part of the reason why he blames himself for Aerith's death so terribly.

However, this is not enough to make a true thesis, so I will present more evidence. In AC, Tifa and Cloud had been living with each other until quite recently before he moved to Aerith's church. This means that they had been living together for almost two years. Two years! I mean, I know that Cloud doesn't like to open up about his feelings, but don't you think that he would have made a move on her by then? It is quite obvious in the movie that they are not "together" in the sense of a boy/girlfriend relationship, so I don't really understand how their love (because she obviously loves him) could remain unspoken for so long.

Still not nearly enough, but it's a start. It's been a while since I've watched AC, so I'll go and watch it and then come back here and post some more evidence. In the meantime, someone post some rebuttals to my points. I do always love a good debate.

[Ryushikaze]

Ah... here it is. Lost it for awhile in the new posts.

Why, you're right Ryushikaze, I did get a bit off topic. Didn't even realize it. I apologize. To stay on topic, I will only say this. In the game, one is given the choice as to who they care for more, and this can most certainly be seen as love.

Uh, no? In the game, you- as a player- can do numerous things, both direct and ancillary, to determine which girl likes Cloud better. This process really has nothing to do with Cloud.

As for outside of the game, there are a few points on each side, but AC didn' really answer that question. However, I still say that Cloud loves Aerith.

Actually, one can use in game things as evidence, provided it's not variable, or the variables wind up more or the same.
Of course, saying is all and good, but remember, I am wanting points to be supported by evidence.

First off, in AC, Cloud is still lamenting over Aerith's death. Still blames himself, and still feels unforgiven. He feels the same way about Zack, but his connection with Aerith's death seems much more personal.

Actually, given that he vists Zack's grave, and keeps thinking about him, wheras it takes Aerith actually using her power to contact him, it would seem Zack's death is the more personal.

In the case of Zack, there wasn't much he could do, but with Aerith, he felt that if he hadn't been controlled by Sephiroth at that time that he could have stopped it.

Uh, evidence?

Also, he is living in Aerith's church, and is constantly talking about being forgiven. It is clear that Aerith's death still haunts him in a much deeper way than it haunted anyone else. Perhaps more than he should be.

This was not so until his geostigma began afflicting him. When he and Tifa visited Aerith's grave after FF7, he was not haunted by it, and he was actually quite happy for awhile, until a period where he began becoming much more distant, a distance which was started by his contraction of Geostigma.

Though Cloud was up there on the alter being controlled by Sephiroth, it was as much his fault as anyone's elses. It wouldn't have mattered if Tifa was up there. Sephiroth would still have come down and killed her. There are a number of things blinding Cloud from this truth, but I believe that love is one of them.

Had anyone else been up on that platform, it is entirely likely, and in fact most probable, that they would feel a similar guilt. It is the guilt of a survivor who could not help save the fallen. It is an irrational guilt, commonly called survivor's guilt, and to be frank, Cloud has it in spades. Zack, Aerith, his entire hometown. In fact, such survivor's guilt explains Cloud's bizarre thoughts that he cannot actually save anyone, and his reticence to go out to try and save others, in the case that he fails and has do deal with similar guilt again. Cloud wants to be forgiven, yes. He thinks he has a lot of failures for which he needs to be forgiven. Love does not necessarily follow.

Love can make people feel things that they shouldn't. It is not dissimiliar to when a child feels responsible for the divorce of his parents, or when a woman may think that she drove her partner to cheat on her. Neither of these are true, but love blinds them from that. I believe the same thing happened to Cloud, and this is part of the reason why he blames himself for Aerith's death so terribly.

Cloud perceives the Geostigma as a punishment for his failures. This, along with survivor's guilt, is more than sufficient to explain his behaviour, without invoking a love for Aerith which really has no evidence in its favor.

However, this is not enough to make a true thesis, so I will present more evidence. In AC, Tifa and Cloud had been living with each other until quite recently before he moved to Aerith's church. This means that they had been living together for almost two years. Two years! I mean, I know that Cloud doesn't like to open up about his feelings, but don't you think that he would have made a move on her by then? It is quite obvious in the movie that they are not "together" in the sense of a boy/girlfriend relationship, so I don't really understand how their love (because she obviously loves him) could remain unspoken for so long.

Wait, who said that it remained unspoken? Nomura said of Tifa that she was a lover, a Koibito, and Nojima said that the very first thing made concrete about the movie was that Cloud and Tifa would be together. Heck, CoT has a scene which shows that if Cloud and Tifa do not share a room, then they are at least so used to being in each other's rooms at night while the other is asleep that Cloud is completely and utterly unphased by her presence next to him as he awakes.

Still not nearly enough, but it's a start. It's been a while since I've watched AC, so I'll go and watch it and then come back here and post some more evidence. In the meantime, someone post some rebuttals to my points. I do always love a good debate.

Oh yes. If we can get some more people involved, that would be kickin. And I'll try and get my original argument in shortly, but I'm attempting to be comprehensive, starting with Cloud's life in Nibleheim and working from there.

[sephirothishere]

right...the love triangle is non existent cuz its a love square...tifa-cloud_zack_aeris......there is an inverted triangle or something there... i dunno....read this

http://www.angelfire.com/yt2/zforce6455/lit/FF7.html

[Shadow Masamune]

Well I am no authority on the subject however; with Cloud's given personality, Yuffie would be entirely too childish for him.

Yuffie is like Selphie in FF8, "Oooo I like trains." Selphie was too childish for Squall. Same scenario different people within FF7.

As for Tifa and Cloud, Tifa is the childhood friend that has always loved him but he never loved her more than a friend.
-He was trapped to protect her because his childhood vow to always be there. He never meant it to be a romantic; but that's what she took it as.

His actions in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children demonstrated his friendship, NOT love.
-He sleeps in an orphanage, not with Tifa for one.
-In the scene in which she says the worst line in history (Dilly Dally Shilly Shally), she is awfully critical of him; the type of critical a best friend would be, not a lover.
-In addition if Square-Enix wanted to throw them together, they would have added a kiss in Advent Children SOMEWHERE.

This leaves Aeris; Elegant, beautiful, intelligent, & mysterious. He acted completely depressed when Aeris died; a loss of love reaction he had.

He mentioned her being full of life and him never being able to see that again.
Then he carried on this weight, the responsiblilty of her dying (even though he could have done nothing more) throughout Advent Children; two years later and he was still carrying the weight. It takes just as long to come to terms with being widowed, in real life.

Summary: He had nothing to do with Yuffie (who would think that)
Tifa and him were childhood friends and best friends when
they grew up.
Cloud Loved Aeris

[Ryushikaze]

And I suppose this is an example of what not to do.

To begin with, you cannot use process of elimination to 'prove' aerith, without using any evidence to support Cloud's romantic interest for her.

Well I am no authority on the subject however; with Cloud's given personality, Yuffie would be entirely too childish for him.

Yuffie is like Selphie in FF8, "Oooo I like trains." Selphie was too childish for Squall. Same scenario different people within FF7.

Squall is not Cloud. Selphie is not Yuffie. This is a completely irrelevant point, and honestly, it couldn't be used anyways. FF8's characters are not FF7's characters and their personalities are different, so the preferences of Squall cannot be used as evidence of Cloud's preferences, especially since the two are not all that alike at all.

As for Tifa and Cloud, Tifa is the childhood friend that has always loved him but he never loved her more than a friend.

Yet his dearest memories are of her, he changed his entire lifestyle for her, he told her immediately after FF7 that he wanted to start a new life , specifying that it would be with her...

-He was trapped to protect her because his childhood vow to always be there. He never meant it to be a romantic; but that's what she took it as.

You need evidence to support this position. Especially since he was trying to protect her long before this vow was made.

His actions in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children demonstrated his friendship, NOT love.

His actions in FF7AC demonstrated that he was racked with survivor's guilt, a fatal wasting disease, and the psychological block that people he was incapable of saving people.

-He sleeps in an orphanage, not with Tifa for one.

So you did not watch FF7AC. He sleeps in the sector 5 church, where he has withdrawn in quarentine for his Geostigma and in an attempt to find penance so the Geostigma would be lifted, seeing as he thought it was a punishment for his failures.
This is also change, since he did live with Tifa for most of the two year gap.

-In the scene in which she says the worst line in history (Dilly Dally Shilly Shally), she is awfully critical of him; the type of critical a best friend would be, not a lover.

Yes, because lovers cannot ever be critical of each other. Ever ::rolls eyes::

-In addition if Square-Enix wanted to throw them together, they would have added a kiss in Advent Children SOMEWHERE.

Idunno, I thought that look was a promise of a little 'somethin' somethin'' happening later. I also have the word of Nomura and Nojima stating Tifa's a Koibito- a lover- and that she and Cloud are Together.

This leaves Aeris; Elegant, beautiful, intelligent, & mysterious. He acted completely depressed when Aeris died; a loss of love reaction he had.

Cloud acted to her death like he acted to the death of his mother. And I do mean exactly alike.
BTW, I won't argue beautiful, but she wasn't really elegant, numerous party members outstripped her by leaps and bounds in intellect, and seriously man, how the hell is she mysterious?

He mentioned her being full of life and him never being able to see that again.

He also says "we have to let go of her memory" before assault on North crater. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't affected by her death, but the entire party was.

Then he carried on this weight, the responsiblilty of her dying (even though he could have done nothing more) throughout Advent Children; two years later and he was still carrying the weight. It takes just as long to come to terms with being widowed, in real life.

Except he wasn't carrying the weight at all until the Geostigma started afflicting him. He was getting along with Tifa incredibly well in the two years before he withdrew because of his disease]

Summary: He had nothing to do with Yuffie (who would think that)
Tifa and him were childhood friends and best friends when
they grew up.
Cloud Loved Aeris

You cannot prove romance by process of elimination, especially by a process as backassward as the one you used. You also did not actually support your side with any evidence to show that Cloud's feelings for Aerith were anything special compared to his feelings for say, his mom, or zack, or the rest of the party's feelings for her.

Addendum: And sephirothishere, that link is broken.

[sephirothishere]

http://www.angelfire.com/yt2/zforce6455/lit/ff7.html

here ya go...must o'done something wrong first time sorry.........

[Ryushikaze]

Oh. THAT. I would take everything he says with a grain of Salt.

I'm not sure where he gets his info, but a lot of it is just plain wrong. For example, he says Square translated FF7 themselves. They didn't. Sony did.

[Aralith]

I've read that "True Meaning of FFVII" thing before. It is not nearly as "insightful" as the author seems to think it is. First off. He is blatantly wrong. Jenova is not the main villain, Sephiroth is. Also his thing about Cloud being cured of his Jenova cells is wrong. We know this because of his Geostigma in AC. I can agree that in the end Aerith played her part and saved the world, but this certainly doesn't make her the main hero of the story. If it weren't for the work of Cloud and party, she would never have been able to do what she did in the first place. Then he gets into that whole numbers thing and that's when I really begin to discount this guys credibility. Overall, that article is untrue and pretty much irrelevant to this discussion.

Now, Ryushikaze, I must say that you refuted my points pretty well. Plus I misunderstood something that you said about AC. When you brought up the point about Tifa and Cloud being lovers in another thread, I thought you just meant that it was supposed to be quite obvious that Tifa loved Cloud. Now I see that you mean that their love had been spoken, and they were indeed in a relationship. If this is true, then I digress. In AC, Cloud and Tifa were together. However, I have now gathered some evidence from the game.

Okay, I was playing FFVII yesterday (because I finally got my copy of it back. YAY!) and there was one line in particular that I heard that I thought would be just perfect in this arguement. When you visit Cosmo Canyon for the first time, at one point, all of the party is sitting around the Cosmo Candle being silent. You then proceed to talk to all of the characters. When you talk to Aerith, she says something about being alone, and then Cloud says this line: "I'm... we're here for you, aren't we?"

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like he was about to say, "I'm here for you." This can be construed as him just being nice to her, but his quick change to "We're" is what makes me think that he's trying to mask some feelings. I don't know. Maybe I'm looking too deep, but that sounds pretty sentimental coming from Cloud. And his quick cover up definitely makes it seem like there is more there than meets the eye.

I'll post again when I have more, but for now that's all I got. Can't wait to see your thesis Ryushikaze. Should be good, knowing you.

[Dr. Acula]

Let's get one thing cleared up (only ONE since I'm not much of a debater).
Cloud may or may not haved loved Aeris. Square is pretty much refusing to tell us who he DOES love for fear of upset fans not buying their games.
However, him grieving over Aeris' death was not necessarily love. I mean, if a close friend of yours died, would you just shrug and go, "Oh well, I can always make a new one", or would you be overcome with grief and guilt?
Besides, I'm pretty sure it would have been worse if Tifa died. He's known her for longer and it would have been worse for him.

[Shadow Masamune]

"So you did not watch FF7AC. He sleeps in the sector 5 church, where he has withdrawn in quarentine for his Geostigma and in an attempt to find penance so the Geostigma would be lifted, seeing as he thought it was a punishment for his failures.
This is also change, since he did live with Tifa for most of the two year gap."

Actually I have seen it about 5-7 times dubbed. Everytime I see it shows Rude saying that he lives with the children. I know it's a church but if there were children involved taken; he asks where are the children, that would indicate an orphanage now wouldn't it?

I am too busy to actually quote every little little point... but I can use process of elimination; Square-Enix would never have a Final Fantasy w/o a lovestory; by simply using process of elimination we can see what Square wanted us to believe.

Squall is not Cloud. Selphie is not Yuffie. This is a completely irrelevant point, and honestly, it couldn't be used anyways. FF8's characters are not FF7's characters and their personalities are different, so the preferences of Squall cannot be used as evidence of Cloud's preferences, especially since the two are not all that alike at all.

Actually if you watch closely, Selphie and Yuffie have similar mannerisms and are the same type of characters, free spirited and childish. Square-Enix has a forumla of characters from what I noticed, there is always a renegade, a Childish Character, and a badass someone has to defeat. FF characters can be compared, it just depends on qhich ones are being compared. Of course you can't compare Squall and Cloud, they have two totally different personalities, but why not Selphie and Yuffie, or Tifa and Celes? Personality-wise such characters are similar.

IN all seriousness, your case is just as hypothetical as mine; you act as if yours is written fact. There are multiple explanations for one incident. How do you know that Geostigma only affected him for a short amount of time, its not like the movie was very descriptive, he could have had it anywhere from a few months after to 2 years later. The movie failed to describe or extend much of the story hence why you and I assume so much.

Aeris was mysterious in the sense of her powers, just as Terra was in FF6 (the esper).

[Ryushikaze]

Actually I have seen it about 5-7 times dubbed. Everytime I see it shows Rude saying that he lives with the children. I know it's a church but if there were children involved taken; he asks where are the children, that would indicate an orphanage now wouldn't it?

Hint- He was referring to Denzel and Marlene.

I am too busy to actually quote every little little point... but I can use process of elimination; Square-Enix would never have a Final Fantasy w/o a lovestory; by simply using process of elimination we can see what Square wanted us to believe.

FF1-2-3. And even then if we assume you can use process of elimination, your process is still wanting.
Addendum: 5, too.

Actually if you watch closely, Selphie and Yuffie have similar mannerisms and are the same type of characters, free spirited and childish. Square-Enix has a forumla of characters from what I noticed, there is always a renegade, a Childish Character, and a badass someone has to defeat. FF characters can be compared, it just depends on qhich ones are being compared. Of course you can't compare Squall and Cloud, they have two totally different personalities, but why not Selphie and Yuffie, or Tifa and Celes? Personality-wise such characters are similar.

Yuffie and Selphie have some superficial similarities. This does not make them the same. Of course, you yourself admit that Cloud and Squall are not alike. What works for one might not work for the other.

IN all seriousness, your case is just as hypothetical as mine; you act as if yours is written fact. There are multiple explanations for one incident. How do you know that Geostigma only affected him for a short amount of time, its not like the movie was very descriptive, he could have had it anywhere from a few months after to 2 years later. The movie failed to describe or extend much of the story hence why you and I assume so much.

I'm not just relying on the movie. There ARE supplemental materials. I suggest you familiarize yourself with them. My position is supported by a lot more evidence than yours, which has almost none in the concrete department.

Aeris was mysterious in the sense of her powers, just as Terra was in FF6 (the esper).

And? How is this relevant to Aerith, as a person, or Tina, as a person, being mysterious? Moreover, how is this relevant to Cloud's emotions?