Is Advent Children REALLY better then SW?

[Aralith]

To be fair, it’s a lot easier to locate the flaws in the movie than it is to locate the plot.

Though I enjoyed the movie, this statement is pretty much true. The only real plot to it was Cloud getting over his guilt about Aerith and Zach, which would have only been like a fifteen minute movie so they added all this other crap in too. Most of it was just eye candy, and the plot of the movie really didn't progress the storyline of VII at all. Overall, it wasn't that great of a movie storywise, but was flashy and spiffy to all of the fanboys. And that is the definition of a cult movie, which AC most certainly was.

[Ishin Ookami]

Quote: Err, wasn’t there a scene in Hero where they were balancing on water with their swords. That scene was a little higher on this ‘ridiculous crap that could never happen’ meter IMO.

Like I said, Hero Stretched Wuxia physics to the point of silliness on occasion. the whole bounching off water is TECHNICALLY possible in wuxia (fantasy) storytelling if one manages to channel their chi to create pressure against the water. But the whole using their swords plot point was fairly silly, as was the whole "we fought in our minds" and "I see the definition of swordsmanship in a word that says, sword."

Among HK film connosieurs, Crouching Tiger and Hero are both decent films with flaws that prevent them from being great. Crouching tiger has the lesser fight sequences, with only one TRULY great fight sequence that being the second fight between Jhen and Shu Lien (Michelle yeoh's and Zhang Ziyi's characters) but it has the superior story. Which is really saying something considering it was taken from a novel, which was the fourth book in a five book series, and managed to tell a coherent story within the continuity in two hours.

Hero on the other hand, is widely regarded to have the more impressive fight sequences, but it's storytelling gets a bit silly at times, for the aforementioned reasons. Alot of people agree that the HK film industry has seen a decline of quality films for a long time now. Shaolin soccer, a decent film but nothing great, being the highest grossing film of it's year is sorta a good demonstration of that. But the industry has been putting out more and more quality films again, so most agree that the industry is looking up.

Hopefully I didnt derail the topic too badly with this rant.

Oh and by the way, I don't watch any film to pick out it's flaws. The quality or lack of it, speaks for itself. and AC has a great many glaring flaws.

[Vaincast]

SW IS NOT a Final Fantasy because as you can always see, EVERY Final Fantasy has weapons. SW, on the other hand, did not have ANY weapons besides these...weird looking guns and jars. AC had LOTS of weapons, gunarm, boomerang, swords, the...thing that Loz had, guns, gunblades and others.

[Raebus]

Vaincast, whats your point exactly? So your pretty much writing off a good film because it had nothing to do with ff? Your right of course, who needs all that lovely story goodness when you can have..swords and summons and magic and...you know what, nvm.

Ahem, I prefer SW over AC anyway. It had a neat story.

[Vaincast]

I'm saying, why would the directors or producers make SW if it had nothing to do with Final Fantasy and WHY would they add to the title: Final Fantasy. They could have just put pirits Within without making so many Final Fantasy fans mad and making them NOT wanting to play or watch any other Final Fantasies.

[Raebus]

[.................]

It actually makes fans not want to watch/play any other final fantasys? How about not mentioning the film again instead of posting/talking about it?

[Xurts]

I’m positive there are at least a few FF games where they specifically call the KO status ‘dead’.

I highly doubt it. You'll have to find me one, then. Even if you do manage to find one it doesn't matter anyway. This is FF7, where Phoenix Downs are used to revive people from KO, or unconsciousness. Other games don't matter.

He meant the wound Cloud receives when he’s stabbed by Sephiroth. I’ll assume that they decided that it was best to throw logic out the window with that scene and instead try in with FFVII’s method of characters receiving Limit Breaks (ie heavy damage).

In AC we see that Cloud, and everyone else in Avalanche for that matter, execute their Limit Breaks at will. Cloud no longer needs to be damaged in order for him to use one.

Sephiroth stabbed him in the upper part of his ribcage. Go watch it again.

[Ishin Ookami]

Quote: I'm saying, why would the directors or producers make SW if it had nothing to do with Final Fantasy and WHY would they add to the title: Final Fantasy. They could have just put pirits Within without making so many Final Fantasy fans mad and making them NOT wanting to play or watch any other Final Fantasies.

Vaincast, no disrespect intended here, I dont know how old you are or how long you've been playing final fantasy video games, but are you aware that most final fantasy titles have little to nothing to do with one another? weapons, characters, and storytelling all differ from title to title. The only similarities are certain storytelling themes which Final Fantasy's creator, Hironobu Sakaguchi (who also made Spirits Within) worked hard to keep central to the entire series. Themes like Meaning of life, hope, spirituality, and other deep concepts are explored in different ways from title to title, and this is what makes, according to sakaguchi himself, spirits within applicable to Final Fantasy.

Accusing SW of not being final fantasy, or being bad for the franchise because cloud didn't prance along pulling Bahamut's out of the air, is unjustified. SW, like Every final fantasy, should be judged on it's own terms, and exist within it's own continuity. I felt that in the past, it's been a sign of the series strength that most titles could offer a compelling story without having anything to do with on another. And ever since the series started having sequels and spin offs, I've felt the quality of storytelling has declined drastically.

It has only been under Nomura's (the guy who made AC) direction that there have been direct sequels to final fantasy. Personally, I think Nomura is a grandstanding hack. He has never had a single character design I found to be inspired, and has never written or directed a single female character that I found likeable, or original. From Tifa, to Kairi, to Rinoa, to Paine, this guy doesn't have a single creative or original bone in his body. He doesn't have a clue how to write female dialogue, and his male characters are almost always of the bishonen type no matter what their walk of life is.

Quote Xurts: I highly doubt it. You'll have to find me one, then. Even if you do manage to find one it doesn't matter anyway. This is FF7, where Phoenix Downs are used to revive people from KO, or unconsciousness. Other games don't matter.

Xurts, consider for a moment the attacks most final fantasy characters withstand. Guns, knives, savage physical attacks, bites, claws, lightning, fire, meteors, and other such lethal occurrences raining havoc upon them. And you mean to tell that you think such things cause unconsciousness? Tell you what, go outside in the next thunderstorm carrying some sort of metal rod on a rooftop, and tell a friend of yours to just slap you to wake up when the inevitable occurs. Just to test that theory. I mean it will only cause unconsciousness... right?

Personally, regarding FFVII, I've felt that the reason RedXIII's father didn't get a soft is the same reason they didn't use a phoenix down on Aerieth. They were too slow in acting. Seto (I think that was the name of RedXIII's pop) shielded his family from stoning arrows while they escaped, so they likely didn't have an opportunity to go back for quite some time. And we all know what a mess cloud was when Aerieth got the shaft, It's likely he didn't think of using one until it's too late (smooth move there spikey). Though, it is fun to criticize both plot points, and that this was never mentioned considering both victims could have been saved from there predicament with a couple gil and some thought.

Quote: In AC we see that Cloud, and everyone else in Avalanche for that matter, execute their Limit Breaks at will. Cloud no longer needs to be damaged in order for him to use one.

One problem with that, your using video game logic to justify gaps in storytelling. This is a film, where storytelling is far more critical then in a video game. You just can't say "so and so was at this level" to justify a gap in logic, that doesn't work in films. That is one thing SW got right. Go take a look at the train wreck that was the Super Maro Bros. movie for further proof of this point.

Quote: Sephiroth stabbed him in the upper part of his ribcage. Go watch it again.

just did, it was the shoulder, where for upper arm meets the torso. Like I said, no way cloud could have fought on with his sword arm considering that wound, doesn't matter how tough you are. try again.

[Aralith]

Look, I know that Cloud got stabbed in his sword arm, and that probably would have f***ed up some stuff, but an adrenaline rush can be a very powerful thing. It makes us forget pain and focus on survival. And after that crushing blow, the only way Cloud could have survived is by killing Sephiroth. Which he then proceeded to do. Now, I admit that him seeming fine even after the final battle was a bit facetious, but it would be feasible (at least in FFVII physics world) for him to do what he did even after being stabbed.

[Ishin Ookami]

Adrenaline is one thing, limit breaks are one thing, but having muscles and tendons severed is totally another. After taking a stab wound to the shoulder, where the arm meets the torso, the muscles that control movement of that arm would have been partially or completely severed. Even partial severing would mean that there was no way in hell cloud could even lift that sword for the rest of the fight, complete severing would mean it would be unlikely he would ever move that arm again. An adrenaline rush wouldn't have done squat because that can only fuel and strengthen muscles, muscles that are still joined and capable of movement. Even a limit break would technically have been useless. Would be like severing a string or two on a puppet yet expecting it to move exactly like it did before. In other words, not effin likely.

[f f freak]

Okay I just want to get this cleared up. No one can be revived when they are stabbed with Sephiroth's sword. It says something about this in the game. Once you are killed with it you can't be revived. It is impossible. Go play the game and see if you can spot where it says this. Trust me it does.

Also let's get something else cleared up. Sure you all say abut Cloud's wound on his shoulder or wherever but let me say soething about SW. They can shoot spirits with guns. The bullets would go straight through them so arguing about Cloud's wound is a complete load of crap. If they can shoot Spirits in TSW then it is more likely that Cloud would be able to recover from that wound in time to kick Sephiroth's ass.

[Aralith]

Not neccessarily. Spirits are obviously not real (or if they are, the way we portray them could never be how they truly exist) and therefore, each story gets to make up its own rules about them. However, humans do exist, and severing tendons and that kind of crap would actually probably not allow Cloud to use that arm for the rest of the battle, if not his life. That's a rule in the real world that must be followed. With spirits, you can do whatever you want. You can make them physical or metaphysical entities. So no. Being able to shoot spirits (having their own rules) in one story, does not dictate Cloud being able to move his arm (having to follow laws of the universe) in a completely different story. Your point is imprecise, incorrect, and irrelevant.

[Xurts]

Xurts, consider for a moment the attacks most final fantasy characters withstand. Guns, knives, savage physical attacks, bites, claws, lightning, fire, meteors, and other such lethal occurrences raining havoc upon them. And you mean to tell that you think such things cause unconsciousness? Tell you what, go outside in the next thunderstorm carrying some sort of metal rod on a rooftop, and tell a friend of yours to just slap you to wake up when the inevitable occurs. Just to test that theory. I mean it will only cause unconsciousness... right?

You are confusing video games with real life. FF is fiction, it's not real. Video games provide fun and entertainment, they're not meant to be taken literally. kay?

Personally, regarding FFVII, I've felt that the reason RedXIII's father didn't get a soft is the same reason they didn't use a phoenix down on Aerieth. They were too slow in acting. Seto (I think that was the name of RedXIII's pop) shielded his family from stoning arrows while they escaped, so they likely didn't have an opportunity to go back for quite some time. And we all know what a mess cloud was when Aerieth got the shaft, It's likely he didn't think of using one until it's too late (smooth move there spikey). Though, it is fun to criticize both plot points, and that this was never mentioned considering both victims could have been saved from there predicament with a couple gil and some thought.

Too slow to act? lol. You're saying that if I leave someone with a certain status ailment for too long, I won't be able to heal them? No. Time has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that the arrows caused a stronger type of petrification, one that could not be healed with a Soft.

One problem with that, your using video game logic to justify gaps in storytelling.

Wrong again. If you watch the movie, Cloud uses several Limit Breaks. This is made even more obvious by the Spirit Energy that surrounds his sword just before he executes one. He uses Braver (against Bahamut Sin), Climhazzard (what he used to finish off Bahamut Sin), Blade Beam twice (against Loz and Sephiroth), Omnislash V5 (against Sephiroth), and a modified version of Finishing Touch (against Kadaj).

just did, it was the shoulder, where for upper arm meets the torso. Like I said, no way cloud could have fought on with his sword arm considering that wound, doesn't matter how tough you are. try again.

It was in that general region. You're forgetting that this is fiction. Cloud has had much worse injuries, yet he manages to survive. He was stabbed right through the chest, yet he still managed to throw Sephiroth down into the Lifestream and survive. Sephiroth was somehow cut in half when he fell down there, yet he managed to survive. It's a smurfing video game/movie, it is not reality.

[Ishin Ookami]

can shoot spirits with guns. The bullets would go straight through them so arguing about Cloud's wound is a complete load of crap. If they can shoot Spirits in TSW then it is more likely that Cloud would be able to recover from that wound in time to kick Sephiroth's ass.

In SW, the point is made that the phantoms are composed of an energy wave that runs totally opposite to Gaea's energy. When two opposing energy waves collide, they cancel eachother out. So infusing bullets, explosives, shields, and what have you with energy patterns similar to gaea is how the humans fought against the phantoms, but without a complete energy wave, the best they could do was temporarily hurt the phantoms, not kill them.

as for cloud miraculously fighting with an arm that just had it's tendons severed from the shoulder down, it's just pure fanboyish rubbish. In other words the status quo from Nomura.

You are confusing video games with real life. FF is fiction, it's not real. Video games provide fun and entertainment, they're not meant to be taken literally. kay?

Believe or not, storytelling requires that there be some rules and logic to the story. And you mean to tell me that being hit by a flaming meteor or lightning bolt would only cause unconsciousness, and that a phoenix down, or Phoenix feather only cures unconsciousness? now your just fumbling for any old way to win that point.

Too slow to act? lol. You're saying that if I leave someone with a certain status ailment for too long, I won't be able to heal them? No. Time has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that the arrows caused a stronger type of petrification, one that could not be healed with a Soft.

First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

Have you ever heard of how people can be technically dead, their heart stops beating and they stop breathing, yet can be resuscitated if quick and effective action is taken? Same principle in the storytelling can be applied. Or you can just criticize the gaping plot holes where cloud didn't pull out a phoenix down and grandpa didn't just bust out a soft for poor ol Seto. either/or.

Wrong again. If you watch the movie, Cloud uses several Limit Breaks. This is made even more obvious by the Spirit Energy that surrounds his sword just before he executes one. He uses Braver (against Bahamut Sin), Climhazzard (what he used to finish off Bahamut Sin), Blade Beam twice (against Loz and Sephiroth), Omnislash V5 (against Sephiroth), and a modified version of Finishing Touch (against Kadaj).

And once again, your using video game logic and trying to apply to a movie. It doesn't work. They are two different mediums. Sakaguchi understood it which is why he went the route he did while making spirits within. In video games, your playing for fun. In a movie, the story and direction and writing is what makes the film enjoyable, and the lack of it is what makes a movie suck. Movies and video games are two entirely different mediums, and trying to apply the rules for one to another is impossible.

It was in that general region. You're forgetting that this is fiction. Cloud has had much worse injuries, yet he manages to survive. He was stabbed right through the chest, yet he still managed to throw Sephiroth down into the Lifestream and survive. Sephiroth was somehow cut in half when he fell down there, yet he managed to survive. It's a smurfing video game/movie, it is not reality.

So first cloud took the hit in the torso, then you change your mind (the torso and shoulders are two totally different body parts BTW.) Then your calling the movie fiction, and it doesn't matter where cloud was hit, now your saying he could take a wound like that? You just won't accept that your argument is beat will you? You're argument is flailing like a spastic reindeer on an ice rink. Just admit that Nomura blew it when it came to storytelling, like he always does.

[Aralith]

Part of the thing about this movie though, is that it didn't really further the storyline of FFVII at all. The only even remotely significant thing that happened that coincided with the original game was Sephiroth coming back and then Cloud again defeating him with Omnislash.

The major mistake that Nomura made when it came to Cloud beating Sephy was this: the solo battle where you use Omnislash to finish Sephy in the game was purely a mental battle. Thus, even though the party had sustained devestating injuries, Cloud was still able to beat Sephy. Nomura then tried to make this battle a physcial one.

If there is any plot point that failed to execute in that movie, it was that one. It just kind of blew up in Nomura's face because, as has been stated here, the injury Cloud sustained to his shoulder would have rendered him immobile. By trying to execute a terrible plot point, Nomura opened up a gaping wide plot hole. This was his most dire error in this movie.

Also, let us not forget how this whole thing began. This was supposed to be just a twenty minute thing that kind of showed what happened to Cloud after VII. In the original, there was just some background music playing while Cloud rode around on his motorcycle and talked with his various former party members and such. From that, it grew and grew until it became what we now know as Advent Children.

The only real storyline is, as I believe I have mentioned before, Cloud getting rid of his guilt over Zack and Aerith's deaths. The rest of it is just eye candy to please the fanboys. Though I personally was quite pleased with the flashy eye candy provided, I do wish that they would have elaborated on the storyline.

The problem was, that storyline would have made only about a fifteen minute movie, thus the flashy stuff came into play. And of course, what would FFVII be without Sephiroth. Another fanboy pleaser. Nothing more. Sephiroth served no real purpose in the ultimate storyline

You see, they knew that the real storyline was quite boring so they tried to distract you and make you think that the main story was the revival of Sephiroth and that Cloud's guilt was just a side plot. Of course, if they had added to that storyline and made us realize why it was important and necessary, it would have made the storyline more interesting, and made the movie more about it, rather than the stupid sub-plot of reviving Sephy.

Of course, when you're dealing with Nomura, you have to expect the flashy scenes. He said himself in an interview and I quote: "We didn't care if people really couldn't jump that far, or stay airborne that long. As long as it looked cool, we put it in there." Now, if this was a spin-off of The Matrix, that would have worked. Unfortunately this is Final Fantasy.

And not just any Final Fantasy, but FFVII. One of the deepest, most meaningful storylines of the series, and my personal favorite game. We expect more than just spiffy jump moves. I want to see another beautiful story. I mean, of course they only had 90 minutes to tell the story instead of 40 hours, but I still watched that movie expecting a storyline.

I must admit, the flashy, over-the-top stuff was done really well. It kept me entertained, but it didn't leave a lasting impression on me. It's not a movie that I'm going to remember years from now as a great step forwards in the Final Fantasy series. More like four steps backwards. The storyline was dull and unimportant and the characters had no depth or development. It seems that the only thing that didn't really matter (the flash stuff) was the stuff they did right.