Starter Pokemon for Pearl and Diamond revealed

[Maxico]

Wait, people still care about this stuff?

I thought we were just being nostalgic.

[ShunNakamura]

What you forget, is the concept of immunity. Darks are immune to Psychic. I don't see fire being x0 against water, nor do I see water x0 against grass. Being immune from Psychic and Ghost, while being effective against both is not rigged in their favor?

What is the goal of the triangle? It is the goal for one to be able to beat one of the other three but able to be beaten by the remaining on. Doesn't matter how it is done. The concept remains the same. Not like you would use grass attacks on a fire type afterall unless you ran out of pp in other moves. So the fact that dark is immune to psychic is moot. The only point that matters is that dark beats psychic, fighting beats dark, and psychic beats figthing(though if you really want to get into it I use Machamp as my psychic killer on netbattle.... Machamp is a beast if played right. Alakazam at max power can't one hit him, and he can one hit alakazam with Hidden Power ghost fairly easily. Hariyama is another fighting type that if you need can be fielded against psychics).

Slow Psychics. Out of the lists I see so far, how many Slow Psychics have there been? Two? Less? I don't bring in defense, because it varies (wildly, sometimes) from each Psychic to Psychic (in the case of Slowbro, a very TIGHT defense, while Alakazam isn't quite the fan).

Err... that list was the SLOW pokemon. 80 base is average. Just average. If I have a pokemon with 80 base I don't even bother trying to get it to outrun other(unless that is all it gots).... it is too dratted slow. However, if you want to be technical, anyone that appeared on the list before Metagross is a slow psychic(below average speed).

You mention a weakness against Bugs, but how many Bug attacks that do damage and are not Pokemon unique are there? Two? Three (the last time I checked). None of them do significant damage (or if you want to talk about the beginning, insignificant damage).

Hmm... Well lets see Ninjask with silverwind or Hidden Power Bug can wipe the floor with psychics(trust me, Ninjask being my fav is almost always fielded on my teams, and if played right is a heck of a sweaper... even with *weak* bug moves).

You have anyone who can learn megahorn. Anyone who can learn hidden power and gets stab for the bug typing(Armaldo can easily kill psychics).

Early on while the attacks are weaker so is the psychic's defense. So it should balance out. Plus hopefully the bug moves will become more prominent.

Ice does extra damage to Rock, Rock does extra damage to Ice
Rock is halved by Ground, Ground does extra to Rock
Ground does normal damage to Ice, Ice does extra damage to Ground

Perhaps you should study your charts? Ice is not super effective vs rock. At least not in the latest generation(I just double checked even).
The triangle here is this. Ice beats ground, Rock beats ice, Ground beats rock. The big problem here is dual typing could VERY easily break it.

Steel does extra damage to Ice, Steel is halved by Ground
Ground does extra damage to Steel, Ground does normal damage to Ice
Ice does extra damage to Ground, Ice is halved by Steel

Here it is once again fairly obvious. Steel beats Ice, Ground Beats Steel(Unless it is skarmory), and Ice beats ground.

Fire does extra damage to Grass, Fire is halved by Water
Water does extra damage to Fire, Water is halved by Grass
Grass does extra damage to Water, Grass is halved by Fire

The current one, Fire Beats grass, Water Beats fire, and Grass beats water(maybe, so many waters are part ice that that isn't guaranteed).

Unfortunately, most Steels have high defense ratings. GG Ground.

Hmm... Odd cause on NB I always can fry the enemy Steel fairly easily with ground(skarmory the is the exception). Of course if the ground is also part rock..... end of story. And if it really bugs ya, lets just have the steel evolve as part rock or electric later(like Aggron and Magneton.... 4x weakness for the win). Or even Steel/Poison or Steel/Fire for new typings.

See the difference?

Only minor inconsequential differences that don't amount to much.

[Tavrobel]

though if you really want to get into it I use Machamp as my psychic killer on netbattle.... Machamp is a beast if played right. Alakazam at max power can't one hit him, and he can one hit alakazam with Hidden Power ghost fairly easily. Hariyama is another fighting type that if you need can be fielded against psychics).

That's the point. There are so many moves now, that you could find a way to counter ANYTHING.

The point of the Triangle can be easily accomplished. My concern is whether or not it can be as best as it should be.

Err... that list was the SLOW pokemon. 80 base is average. Just average. If I have a pokemon with 80 base I don't even bother trying to get it to outrun other(unless that is all it gots).... it is too dratted slow. However, if you want to be technical, anyone that appeared on the list before Metagross is a slow psychic(below average speed).

Yes, they are slow. What I was referring to was "how many people do you see using slow Psychics in this group of people?" Sorry for being unclear. I can see how that could be construed in the way you took it.

Hmm... Well lets see Ninjask with silverwind or Hidden Power Bug can wipe the floor with psychics(trust me, Ninjask being my fav is almost always fielded on my teams, and if played right is a heck of a sweaper... even with *weak* bug moves).

You have anyone who can learn megahorn. Anyone who can learn hidden power and gets stab for the bug typing(Armaldo can easily kill psychics).

Early on while the attacks are weaker so is the psychic's defense. So it should balance out. Plus hopefully the bug moves will become more prominent.

So you admit that they are not yet prominent. Of course, we shall have to see whether or not this new game will change that. Not that I'll be around (I stopped after Silver).

Weak meaning Leech Life (atk 20).

Perhaps you should study your charts? Ice is not super effective vs rock. At least not in the latest generation(I just double checked even).
The triangle here is this. Ice beats ground, Rock beats ice, Ground beats rock. The big problem here is dual typing could VERY easily break it.

In old school, Ice attack > Rock defense. Articuno using an Ice Beam 4x hits an Aerodactyl. Of course, Ice defense < Rock attack.

The problem is that there are an endless array of dual types in the newest generation. If Grass/Fire/Water worked so far, then it'll keep working. There's no need to rebalance to add in new types.

How many Ice alone Pokemon can you think of? (I'll check later, I'm coming up blank, but the closest I can think of is Jynx, which is Psychic, which should habve no bearing against Rock or Ground).

Rock alone? (actually there might be quire a few, Sudowoodo is one prominent one).

Ground alone (ok, this one is easy, Dugtrio, amongst many others).

If you can't think of at least six (total), then Nintendo is going to have a VERY hard time to think of new designs to fit them.

Here it is once again fairly obvious. Steel beats Ice, Ground Beats Steel(Unless it is skarmory), and Ice beats ground.

This is fairly obvious, but I find it skeptical at best to be usable.

The current one, Fire Beats grass, Water Beats fire, and Grass beats water(maybe, so many waters are part ice that that isn't guaranteed).

Blastoise was not Ice, but Bulbasaur was part Poison. However, this had little bearing, as all three of the Pokemon were Special users.

Hmm... Odd cause on NB I always can fry the enemy Steel fairly easily with ground(skarmory the is the exception). Of course if the ground is also part rock..... end of story. And if it really bugs ya, lets just have the steel evolve as part rock or electric later(like Aggron and Magneton.... 4x weakness for the win). Or even Steel/Poison or Steel/Fire for new typings.

Okay, I need to stop making my Charizard Earthquake everyone. Because it works so well...

Only minor inconsequential differences that if taken advantage of don't amount to much would ruin the new generation of starters.

[Mo-Nercy]

Torchic's blue now?

[ShunNakamura]

Before I get into this something I forgot to mention. Since I was naming possible triangles off my head Ice was involved alot cause I know its strengths and weaknesses very well(I accepted to do a mono-ice team challenge on netbattle). Therefor, I am more aware of how it would fit in a triangle. Also I would like to see more *good* ice types(I say it that way cause many of them are more then usable even competatively.... but it takes some work).

That's the point. There are so many moves now, that you could find a way to counter ANYTHING.

Well that is the point. You should be able to counter anything as long as you try. In Crystal I always used the grass starter to kill the fire starter. And I have made many a mono-grass team on NB capable of standing against fire types fairly well, though a whole team of fires would be a pain in the *bleep*. Though the one time it happened I managed to pull a 1-0 victory.

The point of the Triangle can be easily accomplished. My concern is whether or not it can be as best as it should be.

Which I don't think is being done currently. The problem is most water types(even if not part ice) learn ice-beam. Which hurts nearly as much as a firetypes fire attack. Of course water holds the advantage thanks to stab, but most grass types moves are weaker then ice beam(even afterstab if memory serves).

Yes, they are slow. What I was referring to was "how many people do you see using slow Psychics in this group of people?" Sorry for being unclear. I can see how that could be construed in the way you took it.

Ah I see now. Anyways I do. Gardy is by far my favorite psychic type. I wouldn't dream of trying to kill her with Machamp(same with slowbro and a few others..... too high of defense). Gardy is a beast with Psychic/Thunderbolt/Calm Mind/Willowisp[swapable for reflect so that guts doesn't get ya].

Another popular is Exeggcutor. This guy is another monster. Also fairly popular on NB(back when I regularly got on).

The slow duo(slowbro/slowking) are good, though I don't care for thier appearance. I see slowbro at least fairly common on NB(at least back when I regularly got on).

Wobbufet is an uber. So annoyingly strong that he is not allowed in standard competitive play on some NB servers.

Grumpig, Hypno, Solrock, and Lunatone I I see from time to time though there stat total is low enough that they have a hard time against the common mainstream like Salamence and all them.

Chimecho just has such awful stats that it is mostly unusable as a whole(I think healbealing in the lower groupings is all it realy does; though my memory may be far off here. Never used the guy myself).

Metagross is likely one of the most(if not most) common psychics to see out there. Though he is used as a physical sweaper. Nasty little guy he is. My brother thinks he is so strong as to be cheap and refuses to touch him even for mono-psychic teams.

Medicham. Even worse then Metagross when used right. Thanks to its trait its attack is even HIGHER than Slaking's! If this guy(choice banded) hits you it WILL leave a dent. Funny when Hi-Jump Kick misses. I just about OHKO'ed myself with it before (I believe if he misses Blissey it is an instant KO for Medicham ).

Anyways many of them are used(even competitively) to answer your question.

So you admit that they are not yet prominent. Of course, we shall have to see whether or not this new game will change that. Not that I'll be around (I stopped after Silver).

No not overly prominent but that has been somthing needed fixed for ages. It is the reason bug types are so weak(a decent stabbed attack would go a long ways for some of those borderline bugs). It would be the same if grass was like that or ice.

Question... could bug be put in a triangle? A quick lookie for me suggests that it wouldn't. Stinks cause if a bug was a starter some decent attacks for them would likely turn up or become slightly more obtainable.

In old school, Ice attack > Rock defense. Articuno using an Ice Beam 4x hits an Aerodactyl. Of course, Ice defense < Rock attack.

I'll admit I didn't use ice types before; However, my charts for G/S/C show that Ice wasn't weak to rock. And in R/B/Y my charts say the same. However, Arti's Ice beam is by far powerful enough to one hit just about anything that is 2x weak to it(particually before the special split[348 special attack.......only 20 points lower then Alakazam, plus stab!]).

The problem is that there are an endless array of dual types in the newest generation. If Grass/Fire/Water worked so far, then it'll keep working. There's no need to rebalance to add in new types.

However it wouldn't be hard for duals to ruin the Grass/Fire/Water triangle. Some people fear it may already be done with the penguin if it evolves to Water/Ice. Water/Ice will likely beat the Grass type unless the grass type becomes grass/steel.

Many fear the turtle will become Grass/Ground. Which will give it much more of the chance to beat the fire type(stabbed EQ HURTS).

etc....

How many Ice alone Pokemon can you think of? (I'll check later, I'm coming up blank, but the closest I can think of is Jynx, which is Psychic, which should habve no bearing against Rock or Ground).

I beleive there are two pure types(so a pure ice starter would be nice). They are Glaile(and his unevolved form snorunt) and Regice. I believe all the others are dual types. Many being dualed with water.

Rock alone? (actually there might be quire a few, Sudowoodo is one prominent one).

Pure rock are-- Sudowoodo, Regirock, and Nosepass off the top of my head. Let me double check. So a pure rock starter would be nice.

Ground alone (ok, this one is easy, Dugtrio, amongst many others).

6 different evolution chains have pure ground in them. 1 of them is only an unevolved form though(this I HAD too look up).

This is fairly obvious, but I find it skeptical at best to be usable.

Why not? If it is cause of ice. Trust me even Piloswine can KO ice weak foes(though even better if they are earth weak). If it cause of earth... Well I wouldn't leave my Metagross in on Marowak unless I knew I would go first and would land a OHKO. However, Marowak is insanely slow so that should be easily. I also wouldn't like my Metagross to go against Donphan one on one. That could equal pain real fast. And Metagross is one of the(if not the) strongest steel type. So no questiong on ground beating steel. Particually if we get a good one(Groudon is beast and pure ground for example).

And Steel can take ice.

Okay, I need to stop making my Charizard Earthquake everyone. Because it works so well...

Pretty much. A team without an EQ resist on NB is pretty much dead.

here is a link to Charizard's suggested movesets. Notice that 3/4 of them contain EQ, and that the only without it is the pure special sweaping set.



And as a final note. I realize not everyone plays competively or even wants to play that way. However, those of us that do know the current system inside and out. We know how to take advantage of each strength and weakness. Don't think mono-ice is good? Won nearly 80% of my matches with that team. Best win-loss ratio I had. But anyways. I love mono-ice now. I always thought ice was a crap type. But it isn't actually that bad. Just takes a bit of effort to get it to work. However the trio of ice/rock/steel I like becuase all three types could use new average(or better) pokes in it.

[Skyblade]

I admit, I am finding all this balance talk fascinating. I have never played competitively, so my team is focused on decimating the NPCs, which lets me use the ones I like most without having to worry too much about how well they'd face against the insanely talented players out there.

Personally, though, I wouldn't mind if they didn't add any new Pokemon at all. The movesets need to be rebalanced, but we don't need a huge ton of more Pokemon. We need a new plot. More character interaction, a new storyline...

[ShunNakamura]

I admit, I am finding all this balance talk fascinating. I have never played competitively, so my team is focused on decimating the NPCs, which lets me use the ones I like most without having to worry too much about how well they'd face against the insanely talented players out there.

True enough. And I like playing the games purely for that reason. I had a rude awakening that using a team of my favorites competitively didn't work well. Niether did my in game sets(on attackers I would many times have two of thier stabbed attacks just incase I ran out of pp for one of them while in the wild. Makes sense for ingame... but not so much for competitive play).

Personally, though, I wouldn't mind if they didn't add any new Pokemon at all. The movesets need to be rebalanced, but we don't need a huge ton of more Pokemon. We need a new plot. More character interaction, a new storyline...

I agree much with that last sentance. The game is fairly boring as is. If it wasn't for the strategy part I would never play them. So a super storyline and all that would be wicked.

[Tavrobel]

Before I get into this something I forgot to mention. Since I was naming possible triangles off my head Ice was involved alot cause I know its strengths and weaknesses very well(I accepted to do a mono-ice team challenge on netbattle). Therefor, I am more aware of how it would fit in a triangle. Also I would like to see more *good* ice types(I say it that way cause many of them are more then usable even competatively.... but it takes some work).

I want more Ice types, too. In my opinion, it is the best element. Psychic makes number two.

Which I don't think is being done currently. The problem is most water types(even if not part ice) learn ice-beam. Which hurts nearly as much as a firetypes fire attack. Of course water holds the advantage thanks to stab, but most grass types moves are weaker then ice beam(even afterstab if memory serves).

Which is a result that occurs because of needing to add diversity. The current system works now, because the beginning Water types often aren't dual types, so they cannot gain the x1.25 advantage of using Ice Beam, like a Dewgong can.

However, in my opinion, it is working better than anything that could be constructed with this system.

Anyways many of them are used(even competitively) to answer your question.

I'll concede to this one. I'll admit that I'm a bit out of date; partially because of Dark Pokemon.

Question... could bug be put in a triangle? A quick lookie for me suggests that it wouldn't. Stinks cause if a bug was a starter some decent attacks for them would likely turn up or become slightly more obtainable.

Potentially. But as the problem I mentioned before, the triangle would not work that well. Although the current system works (but it is getting worse due to the need to diversify), it is gaining slowly in crap-ness.

You COULD have Bug/Grass/Poison, but I don't know which one would beat the other. I'm actually pretty sure Grass would get wrecked in this situation without Dual-typing. Plus, in the TCG, you have all three of them as usually being classified in GREEN. Yeah, like we need MORE Grass Pokemon. Plus, Poison would rule the both of them.

However, my charts for G/S/C show that Ice wasn't weak to rock. And in R/B/Y my charts say the same. However, Arti's Ice beam is by far powerful enough to one hit just about anything that is 2x weak to it(particually before the special split[348 special attack.......only 20 points lower then Alakazam, plus stab!]).

WTFAKU!?!?!?!?!?!

However it wouldn't be hard for duals to ruin the Grass/Fire/Water triangle. Some people fear it may already be done with the penguin if it evolves to Water/Ice. Water/Ice will likely beat the Grass type unless the grass type becomes grass/steel.

The original system is there. Not that it's working as well as it should. But Duals would destroy the Ice/Steel/Ground more than the original set.

Pretty much. A team without an EQ resist on NB is pretty much dead.

here is a link to Charizard's suggested movesets. Notice that 3/4 of them contain EQ, and that the only without it is the pure special sweaping set.

O WTF LOL ROFLBLASTAR TEH COPTAR! POOLESE! I forgot to wrap my reply in sarcasm tags. I usually use my Dewgong/Mewtwo to finish what my Charizard doesn't bother to finish. But my Charizard does know EQ, but I reserve it for fighting opposing Fire types. I'll have to teach my Charizard that Swords Dance instead of Wing Attack, now.

And as a final note. I realize not everyone plays competively or even wants to play that way. However, those of us that do know the current system inside and out. We know how to take advantage of each strength and weakness. Don't think mono-ice is good? Won nearly 80% of my matches with that team. Best win-loss ratio I had. But anyways. I love mono-ice now. I always thought ice was a crap type. But it isn't actually that bad. Just takes a bit of effort to get it to work. However the trio of ice/rock/steel I like becuase all three types could use new average(or better) pokes in it.

I still find it incredibly difficult to work with, despite the possibilities given thus far, but remember that most people don't evolve to level 100 (especially without the Rare Candy Code, those stupid nutfaces at Nintendo, you ruined my favorite glitch). So, perhaps this could (potentially) work at 100. What about 45 or 25? I do admit that it COULD work, but until Nintendo becomes competent enough to use it, I'll reserve my discussion side's ass when I see it happen.

Ise roxxas mai boxxas! TI R TEH UBARL33T EL3M3NT IN TEH P0KEWURLD! RIEK ZOMAIGAWD ROK AND GRWOUND TOT4LLY N33D BETTAR POKEMON MUVZ! WINNED!

[ShunNakamura]

You COULD have Bug/Grass/Poison, but I don't know which one would beat the other. I'm actually pretty sure Grass would get wrecked in this situation without Dual-typing. Plus, in the TCG, you have all three of them as usually being classified in GREEN. Yeah, like we need MORE Grass Pokemon. Plus, Poison would rule the both of them.

Actually I'll chart it real quick with the current system, cause now I am curious.

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------BUG------------------------------------------|
|-------------------Offense-----------------||------------------Defense------------------|
|--Normal-|---1/2x---|----2x----|--Immune-||--Normal--|---1/2x---|----2x----|--Immune-|
|--Normal-|--Fire-----|--Grass---|----X-----||--Normal--|--Grass---|--Fire-----|----X-----|
|--Water--|--Fighting-|--Psychic-|----X-----||--Water--|--Fighting-|--Flying---|----X-----|
|--Electric-|--Poison--|--Dark----|----X-----||--Electric-|--Ground--|--Rock----|----X-----|
|--Ice-----|--Flying---|----X-----|----X----||--Ice-----|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|--Ground-|--Ghost---|----X-----|----X-----||--Poison--|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|--Bug----|--Steel---|----X-----|----X-----||--Psychic-|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|--Rock---|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----||--Bug----|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|--Dragon-|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----||--Dragon-|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|----X----|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----||--Dark----|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|----X----|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----||--Steel---|----X-----|----X-----|----X-----|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Grass is the only thing it is both supereffective against offensively and defensively. Though the typing can still trash dark and psychic fairly well thanks to offensive stab and defensive neutrality.

So I guess Bug/Grass/Rock could work. Rock beats bug, grass beats rock, and bug beats grass. And I think that may be the only viable one for them.... ouch.

Chart is for current generation. In R/B/Y bug and poison were strong vs. each other. But I don't think that changes the possible triangles by much.


Also even if you don't play it, downloading NB is nice for referance. It has charts of supereffectiveness/etc for all the generations currently available.


out of curiousity have you heard of some of the new moves?

Such as trouble seed. It " Changes Foe's Ability to Insomnia temporarily".

You have the elemental fangs. Which are all based off physical attack.
Fire Fang- "May Cause Burn & Flinch"
Ice Fang- "May Cause Freezing & Flinch"
Thunder Fang- "May Cause Paralysis & Flinch"

All with 65 base power and 95% accuracy.

Which brings up the new split they are doing. where the attack decides whether or not it is phsyical or special rather then the type.

[Tavrobel]

Chart is for current generation. In R/B/Y bug and poison were strong vs. each other. But I don't think that changes the possible triangles by much.

It wouldn't change too much. Poison is pretty much a staple of most attacks early on, but fails as you progress. In the first generation, all Bug had was Leech Life. Quite the improvement, thus far.

out of curiousity have you heard of some of the new moves?

Such as trouble seed. It " Changes Foe's Ability to Insomnia temporarily".

You have the elemental fangs. Which are all based off physical attack.
Fire Fang- "May Cause Burn & Flinch"
Ice Fang- "May Cause Freezing & Flinch"
Thunder Fang- "May Cause Paralysis & Flinch"

All with 65 base power and 95% accuracy.

Which brings up the new split they are doing. where the attack decides whether or not it is phsyical or special rather then the type.

Ohh, good God. I wonder how THOSE will be stopped.

Of course, everything looks good on paper. It's just about how you apply it.

[Shoden]

Depending on the EV tweaks Steelix can withstand up to 5 earthquakes, it can be a fricking pain in the arse to beat. A single Rock Slide can destroy charizard in one hit, 4x weakness. Steeelix has over 510 maximum def on netbattle.

[ShunNakamura]

True Shoden, but shuckle is the only Pokemon that has more Defense to Steelix. So Steelix had better be able to take multiple supereffective hits.

Cloyster who has less hp and def can take multiple supereffective physical hits as well. (I love killing rock types with cloyster, particually aerodactly ).

[Shoden]

I can knock out Aerodactyl with a thunderbolt or rock slide. wtf is shuckle anyway, type wise.

[Tavrobel]

Bug/Rock, it's got somewhat sub-decent HP, but its Defense/Special Defense is the highest of ALL of the Pokemon.

It's got no major attack capability, but it rocks a mean Toxic-er.

[ShunNakamura]

Shuckle Rocks :P.

Sandstorm, Attract, toxic and rest is a fun set :P. Steel trashes it though.