America Under Attack thread, part deux.

[bossker]

Originally posted by Dr Unne
You're right, that I'm not going to listen to your side. There is no justification for murdering innocents. Something as petty as politics certainly is no reason. America isn't the only country that feels this attack was completely unjustified. A great many other countries are supporting us. The people who did this were sick evil people, and most of the world agrees. I would venture to say that anyone with a shred of decency and appreciation for human life would agree that this was a totally evil act. If you think anyone is justified in killing 10,000+ innocent people, in my eyes you're an evil person too, and I don't really feel like discussing anything further with you.

If you read the next sentence I stated that I didn't agree with the violence but I could understand the motives. And my other post was about how much worse it could have been. I mean, it WAS bad. But with Osama's resources, he could have made it SOO much worse.

[Red Wizard]

Originally posted by Britt
So, annihilation, basically. That's pretty depressing... To think that innocent people will die because of their government. A US weapons guy on CNN already said that civilian lives, though precious, will be compromised because their governments dragged them into their situation. That's downright scary, and practically terrorism in its own right.

That's not what I said at all. You act as though we are back in WW2 and the only options are massive ground attacks and saturation bombing. We are now in the electronic age, and we can take out single buildings with small bombs. Nobody said that we would utilize nuclear armaments, biological/chemical agents, or massive strikes at all. Instead, we will sugically remove military and industrial targets until the country no longer has the will or ability to fight. Please try to have a grasp on modern warfare before you predict th outcome. Yes, there will be civillian losses, and yes that is bad. But this is a WAR we are talking about! I don't care how many ideals and the like you throw at me, but in some cases, the only way to end something as serious as this is to resort to violence. It's not pretty, but it has to be done.

Also, please don't forget that all of this is moot if the terrorist faction is found to be woking indepenantly and without the knowledge of the country they are in.

[Linus]

We're not talking about war, silly. We're talking about PREVENTING war, and how POINTLESS a war would be.

[krissy]

Ideals? It's common sense.


EDIT: Bossker, motives are one thing, killing is another. Let's say a single alien destroys our world because he felt like it. You survive. Do you go after that alien, or the whole alien race?

[Britt]

*reminds you of what that US official said*

I'm only saying what I am because of how they're acting. And because I'm a pretty argumentive person. But I don't think I'm going to argue anymore, either. I am a pacifist, so we'll never agree. Like Brian said, someone is going to say something they regret, and I don't want it to be me.

We're not talking about war, silly. We're talking about PREVENTING war, and how POINTLESS a war would be.

Ideals? It's common sense.

Precisely.

[Cyan Highwind]

As I watched the collapse of the Twin Trade centers from my desk at school it seemed sureal like a horrible dream or movie but it dawned apon me that it was not a movie as I heard the screams that wil forever ring in my mind...
And this county no, this world is forever changed

[Red Wizard]

That's not my point at all. I'm trying to say that in this case if another contry was involved, war is inevitible. I'm also saying that preventing civillian casualties in a war is impossible. Don't try and tell me that 'War is pointless' and 'we are trying to prevent a war'. If you think about it, you would do the same. If someone wrecks a car into your house on purpose, then you later find out another family paid that person to do so, what would you do? This is the same principal, just on a larger scale. What president Bush said is that the US can no longer tolerate terrorist attacks at home or abroad, and I agree with him. If you think that this is silly/wrong because civillians might get hurt, too bad for you. If we do not stamp out this flame of hatred, many more lives than those potentially lost in a war will be lost. When we speak of a 'war against terrorism' it is the same thing as a 'war on crime' or a 'war against drugs'. It's symbolic. The only case in which an actual war would take place is if another country was found to have either supported those responsible, or knowingly allowed them to reside in their country. (It's the same idea as being an accessory to a crime/harboring a known criminal, but again, on a larger scale)

[bossker]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[Rirse]

Well I wished Brian would stick around in the topic, as he been nice enough to disprove any fears that the world will end and I give him a big thanks for doing that(it just sickens me to hear that stuff). And I do think justice is the only answer, but not war. I'm remined by a quote from Yoda.

Wars not make one great!

Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice!

- Yoda

[Blackmage]

Well, I've been thinking of quite a bit about all of this. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if there was another attack like this, and if they do I have a feeling that the west coast, mainly CA, would be hit, simply because all the planes had CA as their target (3: Los Angeles, 1: San Fransisco); they could've chosen other flights that would go to Alaska or Washington the state, so that maybe a bit suspisous. But, then again, I'm usually a bad predictor, though. This is a terrible thing that has sorta changed the way I think of life.

And Nostradamus (sp.?)...he said that something like this would happen, if I'm thinking of the right guy. I think it was him who had predicted that there will be quite a few years of chaos, followed by 1000 years of peace, and then the world ends not too long after that. I'm only repeating something I've heard quite a long time ago, and I'm not sure if that was Nostradamus or not.

Hopefully, Bush will take care of all this in a way that gives justice and won't lead to war.

[Linus]

War is POINTLESS.

AND STOP USING THOSE DAMN METAPHORS! Nobody crashed a stupid car, nobody beat up your sibling, nobody did jack like that. You need to look at the current situation and NOT make metaphors that are like our situation. Anyways, let's just PRETEND Afghanistani government had something to do with this. We wipe them out. Then what? We have a big stinkin' hole, lots of very pissed off civilians, a country with no leaders, etc. How would we, the American people, feel good about killing off a government when we're CAUSING pain and suffering. We won't be dancing in the streets, that's for sure. In other words, once the perpetrators are gone, do we celebrate? In the end, it won't matter one bit and we'll have done more wrong than right.

[Garland]

Who's to say Bin Ladin is evil? Well I for one. He and anyone like him are evil incarnate. They devote their lives to killing innocent people. They're no longer humans, so they deserve none of the rights that go along with it. I won't even begin to look at their perspective. They don't deserve so much. They don't represent any known religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, all are peaceful at heart. If you kill innocents as any of them, your faith says you'll go to hell. None of them condone such activities. That's why pointing fingers is so risky. We shouldn't attack the country that houses terrorists, just the terrorists alone. That may seem confusing. I mean, the goal of the conflict that results of this will be geared to eliminating only the group involved. We won't invade with massive armadas of tanks and planes. In any country that happens to house these villains, the other 99% of the people are ordinary citizens just trying to get by. Bush wants retribution, so do many others, but he's no monster. Whatever happens, innocents will be protected.

[RSL]

Anyone who kills 10000 plus people is evil. I don't care if it's the pope, it's the most evil act I can think of.

Wiping out an entire country in retaliation is not the answer, though. We'd be killing innocent people as well, and that would make us no better than those that attacked our country yesterday.

Sorry if someone already made those points, I haven't the time to read all of your posts (but I will sometime.)

[Red Wizard]

I personally think metaphors are one of the best tools to use to apply global politics to everyday life. If you don't agree, I'm sorry, but I use them as a tool. OK, let us assume we find a country who aided the terrorists resoponsible. Those actions would be seen as an attack on the United States, and war would ensue, with all of NATO aiding the US. After the war, the country responsible would probably have its current government stripped, a new, democratic government would be set up, and a peacekeeping force of NATO and UN military forces would be installed. After a few years, the country should be able to choose their on government and move on.
Let us now assume that we find a country who knowingly harbored those responsible. The first thing we would do , would be to ask for an official apology, possibly reparations, and the promise that either A: The terrorists are brought to justice by the local government or that B: The US is allowed to bring them to justice. If my earlier threads implied that we would go to war regardless, that is because I doubt that if we come across situation B, the country in question would give an apology/reparations.

[CloudDragon]

I agree with Red Wizard here. Let's say we dn't go to war on a country that WAS hiding the Terrorists. The terrorists think:HAHAHA The US has let us Live and has not gone to war on our Country. Let's go pu them in Terror again. So they strike again. If we went to war yes we would lose lives but they same thing would happen if we let Terrorism go on and destroy more of the US and its civilians. As Red Wizard Said, if that is the case the war is inevitable. And I know people will disagree with me on this.

To Linus:Well what if we don't wipe them out and they were invovled? We might have to before they do it to us. We must take action to preserve our counrty.