Well, I still can't see exactly how the theory works, and im quite relutant on accepting it, so I wonder if anyone wants to explain it for me?
Thanks
Explanation on the R=U theory?
Well, I still can't see exactly how the theory works, and im quite relutant on accepting it, so I wonder if anyone wants to explain it for me?
Thanks
It doesn't, really. The Ultimania Guide book states that Sorceresses have normal human life spans. Most people who spout the R=U theory claim that Rinoa somehow lives into the time of Ultimecia to become her. This simply can't be true.
It's false, because according to Future Esthar, Rinoa is a propagator.
Thank you Hysterian!
No, she's the REAL Ellone. While the one sending everyone to the past is a cyborg. (According to FE anyway. And it's Squall that's the propogator, isn't it? xD)
Though does it really say WHEN Ultimecia's time is? Suppose its only 50 years in the future. Rinoa might be old, but I'm sure she could live till then.
Well, the idea portrayed by the theory is that after seeing Squall and all her friends die of old age, Rinoa will slowly go insane and one day become Ultimecia in the far future. This theory came into existence for several reasons. The first and most important one (that makes the whole thing seemingly possible) was the misinterpretation of one of Edea’s lines that states that Sorceresses will never die unless they give up their powers first. This was thought to mean that sorceresses don’t age, thus making it possible for Rinoa to exist in the far future despite the fact that we have already been told by Laguna that none of the characters could technically live until Ultimecia’s time. This was further supplemented by the fact that the character model of Edea in FMVs didn’t look all that older than that of Rinoa, Quistis and Selphie.
After this, people began to go through the game and pick out some of Rinoa’s lines that could be re-interpreted in light of the new theory. One of the main ones was when Rinoa states that she “Doesn’t want the future” and that “She might be one day forced to fight her friends” (this is paraphrased of course. Hell if I can remember the actual lines). Another key scene is when Rinoa asks Squall to meet her outside of Edea’s House one day. This happens to be the point in which Ultimecia has anchored her castle in the future.
The problem with the theory is that the whole thing hinged on the idea that sorceresses didn’t age. This was recently proven untrue by the FFVIII Ultimania Guide which corrected Edea’s passage to say that sorceresses do age, they just can’t die until they give up their powers. This of course makes the entire theory pretty much pointless.
The reason the theory was created by fans in the first place was always thought to be because most saw it as an attempt to give the game’s antagonist some actual depth. One of the most criticized aspects of FFVIII was the fact that Ultimecia didn’t really have anything in the way of a background, making her a rather cliché “bad guy in the caste at the end” type villain. Many considered her inferior to her predecessor in the last game (ie Sephiroth), who received a lot more scene time and thus character development. FFVIII fans probably leapt on the R=U theory as a way of saying “Hey, it turns our bad guy has depth to, so stfu you Sephiroth fanboys!”.
There are of course people who still believe that the connection is a valid one and try to present a new case for it. These people are usually barked down pretty quickly though as any attempts to reconstruct the theory while avoiding the original point of sorceresses being unable to age is almost unanimously seen as ‘beating a dead horse’.
I didn't really find Ultimecia undeveloped at all. When possessing Edea in Galbadia in Disc One, she basically says (something to the effect) that Sorceresses have been hunted down and persecuted for generations. We even see that the SeeDs were hunting her down across generations, and now even freaking time itself. She's fed up with it, and is going to take extreme action via Deus ex Machina 'liedk omg nihilism!1one'. Granted, not the most detailed villain, but there's more to her than meets the eye.
It says that she lives many generations in the future, and since Rinoa has a normal lifespan it is impossible for her be Ultimecia.Originally Posted by Vyk
For a full breakdown on the R=U theory, please read the R=U section of the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html
Lilliputian Hitcher gave a good summary of the situation, but if you want to know exactly what arguments were used on both sides and such specific details, check out the FAQ.
Even if she was Rinoa then someone still as to explain me how did Rinoa change her speech...because Ultimecia as the habit of using the letter "K" instead of "C" or something like that.
And this argument is more than enough to destroy the R=U theory.
Well, basically yeah. It didn't used to be a problem, because before you could argue that language changes naturally over lots of time anyway, so Rinoa merely changed along with the mainstream. However, since now the only way for R=U to work is by freezing down Rinoa, she'd wake up in the future still retaining all her habits from the games era, thus invalidating the argument.
One might argue that she hung around enough after being awoken in the future to assimilate the new dialect or whatever, but this is obviously an incredibly weak argument.
Unless, of course, instead of Squall & Co rescue Rinoa in Estar, she be frozen in that machine for many generations.
Unlikely... but ok.
But get this, Rinoa and Sorceress Ultimecia are nothing alike, even the wings are not the same as Rinoa ''not to mention the color!''
And Ultimecia's Final Form... You better not tell me that cute little Rinoa can turn into this monster.
It makes no sence, if it really were Rinoa, why did she said to Squall ''Who's there, Get out!'', if it were Rinoa, she would know Squall and not ''Who's there.''
When you challenge Ultimecia, she says SeeD six time, Rinoa isn't a SeeD, and Irvine isn't quite a SeeD either.
Why go against your friends? (Felt Betrayed? no.)
The R=U theory doesn't stand on it's feet.
And please don't talk about this, there are better theory that makes more sense and are more 'provable' than this... (Except Time-Travelling...don't even start.)
R=U is a theory that gets an unfair amount of stick. It's reputation is possibly more tarnished by the way people act in R=U threads. Unfortunately as people opposing the theory aren't labelled as such, despite many acting equally badly or worse than the proponents, it is the theory that gets bashed.
Lilliputian Hitcher gave a pretty fair account of what is wrong with the theory, although a few things I would consider important were left out or glossed over. The most important of which in my opinion being Griever. Frankly I just don't like the most common explanation for the anti- R=U stance, that being that he is created to intimidate Squall. I remember hearing that the Japanese text actually confirmed this, but even so I still think its a bit stupid.
The Ultimania guide does cause massive problems for the theory. Rather than try and work around them, if I were to try and support the theory, I think personally I would reject the guide as part of the story, even if it is officially canon.
No it isn't obvious, and I have rarely seen anyone try and say that the theory must 100% be true. However it was, at least before Ultimania, defendable, and for many people made the story better.
Note that I haven't given all of the arguments for the theory, and my stance to it was always more subjective approval than objective. Do try to give it a fair view though, as although many arguments for the theory may seem tenuous, many arguments against it have been worse. I don't know how many times I've seen someone adamently stating that R=U is false because Ultimecia gets killed and Rinoa doesn't instantly die...
EDIT: Just quickly to answer King-Killer's points. Ultimecia presumably was not born looking like that (or named like that either). Adel and to a lesser extent Edea, both presumably changed appearance as well. Ultimecia had to start off as someone. The fact that she doesn't recognise Squall and co. I believe was generally taken to be due to her losing her mind (which Ultimecia quite defendably has).
Last edited by PhoenixAsh; 08-16-2006 at 12:48 PM.
I say what I think. If you disagree, then that is up to you.
Why did people actually come up with this theory. It's a game, I doubt the creators ever EVER thought that someone would come up with this type of theory.
the theory doesnt work. can we get on with our lives now?
id like to see this ultimania guide. does anyone have a link? i think the theory would make sense if rinoa didnt age though. but the paradox of ultimecia fighting rinoa (who is her younger self.) is so confusing. it backs up the "FF8s future is set in stone and unchangable." theory becuase if ultimecia kills rinoa she kills herself so its almost like they are destined to win.
here is some proof that rinoa is not ultimecia (sorry if someone has already said that.) ultimecia tries to kill rinoa by sending her into space but squall saves her. ultimecia killing herself just makes no sense. it would rewrites history means edea never becomes a sorceress. this is all so confusing. time is one of the most confusing things ever!
i think it would be good if the theory made sense but they would have to change the text a bit to make there more solid proof because its still a theory right now.
im getting headaches just by thinking about this so i wont continue writing my opinions on this. too much complexity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4
...*holds up free hugs sign.*
I would personally advise against this. Not including plot points that have been considered canon for the sake of a theory would be like disregarding Squall's gender in order to prove that he was really Celes. Ultimately theories that go against canon are a waste of time since:
1. They can't possibly have been the intentions of the original writers, since it refutes they official material and;
2. No one would take the theory seriously.
Changing game facts is fine for fanfiction, but game theories have to actually work along side what has already been considered canon; not work against it.
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