Explanation on the R=U theory?

[PhoenixAsh]

here is some proof that rinoa is not ultimecia (sorry if someone has already said that.) ultimecia tries to kill rinoa by sending her into space but squall saves her. ultimecia killing herself just makes no sense. it would rewrites history means edea never becomes a sorceress. this is all so confusing. time is one of the most confusing things ever!

Actually if anything (though I donit think it does, so I doubt I'd try and use it), that scene SUPPORTS R=U. Rinoa doesn't die, so there is no paradox, meaning no argument against R=U. Furthermore the ridiculously low probability of what happens with Squall saving her almost points to the event being fate, Rinoa COULDN'T die, which is exactly what R=U states.

EDIT: Lilliputian Hitcher I would agree. If one were trying to argue what the canon story was, then R=U seems very unlikely due to Ultimania. Taking the game itself as an isolated story, with all its gaps left to be filled, R=U IMHO becomes a quite plausible, and attractive way of filling them.

[Sir Bahamut]

I disagree. Even without the Ultimania the theory is not at all strongly suggested by the game to be true. All the so-called "hints" used are very shaky, and if they don't have much more reasonable alternate explanations offered by the game itself, they simply don't stand strongly enough to constitute a plausible case. I believe the FAQ referred to shows this.

The thing with R=U, you see, is like you say; people think it's an attractive way of making the game better. So instead of starting with what the game tells us and inferring that R=U, people start with the conclusion that R=U and work backwards to try and show where it is implied. This is how ALL the 'hints' came to be, I can guarantee you. Unfortunately, this is very bad logic, and so the theory falls too short of being plausible. The Ultimania Guide was just the final nail in the coffin really...

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Until someone can explain me with a fair and reasonable explanation about the change of the speech between Rinoa and Ultimecia i will never believe the nonsense that is R=U. Nobody could explain it in the other thread of R=U and nobody can explain it now and that´s the bottom line!

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, I would say the bottom line is that it isn't actually suggested by the game so there's no need to discuss it to begin with. But if brought up, that is certainly a major problem of the theory...

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

Was the speech impairment in the original Japanese? I thought she just randomly added the word 'Fufu' to her sentences or something.

[Sir Bahamut]

That's a good question, so I decided to dig up all the japanese-translated quotes I have by Ultimecia:

1. Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

2. Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you [in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

3. Ultimecia: The introductions are over! Now, I shall junction myself to Griever!

Unfortunately, she doesn't say any words beginning with strong c's (like compression or curse) so it's hard to deduce anything from this. And "fufu" merely signifies laughter, so that's not anything to be considered...

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Well you have to observe that it´s hard to give a different type of conotation in japonese so the point is still valid.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay the speech change thing. I really don't see why its a problem. Generally changing environment results in slight change in the way people talk, or accent. I've seen it more than once in people who've gone abroad for any significant period of time. Such a change is actually addressed directly by some Guados in FFX.

To say that it isn't hinted at is unfair. Some of Edea and Rinoa's lines in Edea's house show very strong foreshadowing,as if I remember correctly, does a scene where you see white feathers turn black, though I can't remember much about that. Though if the writers didn't intend R=U at all, these lose most of their force. Griever on the other hand is quite a big pointer. It's a symbol that only really connects to Squall and Rinoa, and I still think the intimidation explanation is just pointless.

The game does leave holes in its plotline that people fill in or work out. Squall's parents and history being a fairly simple example. The gap between the 'present' and Ultimecia's time is not hugely delved into, and it is not uncommon in stories involving time-travel for persons to meet themselves. It is creative filling yes, and Ultimania is a massive problem, but to completely dismiss R=U without it is in my opinion unjustified.

Oh, and I forgot about the fact that GFs induce memory loss in my earlier explanation of why Rinoa couldn't remember Squall and co.

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

To say that it isn't hinted at is unfair. Some of Edea and Rinoa's lines in Edea's house show very strong foreshadowing,as if I remember correctly, does a scene where you see white feathers turn black, though I can't remember much about that.

Except none of these scenes explicity express the notion that Ultimecia is Rinoa. It's only looking at these scenes with this thought already in mind that one starts to draw parallels.

Griever on the other hand is quite a big pointer. It's a symbol that only really connects to Squall and Rinoa, and I still think the intimidation explanation is just pointless.

In the original Japanese version, it is stated that Ultimecia drew Griever from Squall's thoughts. It wasn't to intimidate him; she was just using what was already within his mind to create a powerful opponent.

The game does leave holes in its plotline that people fill in or work out. Squall's parents and history being a fairly simple example.

Unlike the R=U theory, there are several specific moments that undeniably link Squall to Laguna.

The gap between the 'present' and Ultimecia's time is not hugely delved into, and it is not uncommon in stories involving time-travel for persons to meet themselves.

Laguna states within the game that the gap is too big for such a thing to happen.

[McLovin']

Everytime they save the world they do something differently but ultimately end up with the same ending which is Ulti dies and SeeD is created. In one of their trips back Squall could have never made it back and Rinoa could have gone el loco about it. She could have studied time magic and stuff and time compression (which she already knew about thanks to Ulti) and then became Ultimecia kind of.

Another thing I heard is that Squall lived but Rinoa still became evil and Squall stood by her side to protect her (some say she turned him into Griever).

Time loops suck.

[PhoenixAsh]

To say that it isn't hinted at is unfair. Some of Edea and Rinoa's lines in Edea's house show very strong foreshadowing,as if I remember correctly, does a scene where you see white feathers turn black, though I can't remember much about that.

Except none of these scenes explicity express the notion that Ultimecia is Rinoa. It's only looking at these scenes with this thought already in mind that one starts to draw parallels.

I am aware of that (though some cases less than others), hence I followed it with...

Griever on the other hand is quite a big pointer. It's a symbol that only really connects to Squall and Rinoa, and I still think the intimidation explanation is just pointless.

In the original Japanese version, it is stated that Ultimecia drew Griever from Squall's thoughts. It wasn't to intimidate him; she was just using what was already within his mind to create a powerful opponent.

Why? What purpose could this serve, and how could it better justify the attention that Griever recieves throughout the game than R=U?

The game does leave holes in its plotline that people fill in or work out. Squall's parents and history being a fairly simple example.

Unlike the R=U theory, there are several specific moments that undeniably link Squall to Laguna.

Again I am well aware of that, hence I called it 'a fairly simple example'. My point was that there are elements of the game that can be thought into, and my example was one generally agreed upon as being worthwhile and conclusive.

The gap between the 'present' and Ultimecia's time is not hugely delved into, and it is not uncommon in stories involving time-travel for persons to meet themselves.

Laguna states within the game that the gap is too big for such a thing to happen.

I do not remember that, so I can not comment without knowing the context. You may be correct. Though it certainly seems possible that Laguna could be incorrect, or was referring to people with a normal human lifespan. My point was simply that stories involving time-travel frequently involve such occurences, and that the apparent oddness of R=U is lessened by this fact.


Sephiroth's Cage: I may have misunderstood you, but unless there is an external or seemingly random element involved in the time-loop, then I don't really see how it could change... I certainly don't see how such a change could result in Ultimecia's existence in all of the cycles, as Ultimecia is required 'prior' to the change.

I like the Squall/Griever idea, though I don't support it due to references earlier in the game to Sorceresses going bad not having knights. The idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is supported by the idea that IF she did somehow outlive normal humans, at some point she would lose Squall, and thus have a good chance of becoming evil. I don't see a good reason why she would turn evil despite Squall's presence.

[licence]

Until someone comes up with hard facts that Ultimecia IS Rinoa, then I won't believe it. It's all well and good saying "This is a big pointer or this is a symbol towards this case"

Until someone can actually get something from the game which links Ulti to Rinoa in anyway stronger than "there are plotholes" I'll maybe give the theory some thought. Unlikely though seeing as there is a guide which says a soceress has a normal human life span, but oh no, we know more than the game creators.
I mean you could just as easily say that Irvine is a girl since he has long hair.

[McLovin']

It was just what I heard once.

[boys from the dwarf]

the complexity of this is unbearable! its a nice thought and deserves a few fanfics and stuff like that but no matter how much you argue, rinoa will never be ultimecia.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

... Is why does this theory bother people so much? I rather like the theory and it fulfills a lot of hat-tossed holes in the 'plot' of FFVIII. I'll voice my views on this 'theory' later on...