Explanation on the R=U theory?

[boys from the dwarf]

i see your poin but greiver is linked to squall where the other GFs arent obviously linked to anyone. there are some theorys on eden and i think that square based some of the GFs on the game possibly.

heres one thought. how did ultimecia even know that greiver was what squall considered to be the most powerful thing in existence? 3possibilities.

1. she is rinoa and has been frozen or somehow kept alive until this time and has gone insane but still remembers what squall thinks is the most powerful monster. (im not a supporter of the R=U theory so dont flame me for this. im just looking at things from every viewpoint.)

2. she used some sort of sorcery to read his mind or something.

3. she looked at his necklace. which would explain why the greiver (in some peoples opinion.) doesnt look much like the thing on the necklace

then again i doubt squall made greiver up all by himself. there are bound to be books and stuff that have legends about greiver.

[McLovin']

Nah, it was a lion that represented Dquall's grief.

Makes sense eh?

[Sir Bahamut]

though I have to say I've become less impressed by the Japanese text this time around. I remember it being more conclusive that Griever was summoned from Squall. In the quotations you posted, it seems at least fairly ambiguous what she is actually referring to. It also wasn't important enough to be retained in the translation.

Um, how is that ambiguous? Look at it again:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

She says to Squall that she will summon the strongest thing from his feelings, and that the more strongly he feels, the stronger the summoned thing will be. She then proceeds to summon Griever. Where exactly is the ambiguity?

I still just don't see Griever as Squall's greatest fear.

I never said he was either. I said Squall considers Griever to be the strongest creature. I agree that Squall probably doesn't have nightmares about Griever, but he makes it clear what he thinks of him:

Squall: "It's not a monster. It's a lion. Lions are known for their
great strength and pride."

Although he doesn't explicitly say that Griever is the strongest creature ever, this background information is enough to justify Ultimecia's summoning of him.

As for the translation, it is implied (vaguely I'll admit) in the scan info that Griever is from Squalls mind, as it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF", but really it doesn't matter what the translation did and did not edit. The fact is that the japanese version is necessarily going to be closer to the truth.

Apart from Ultimania, I have yet to see anything which convinces me R=U is even close to impossible or even very unlikely. You can infer how a random individual could have become Ultimecia, but that seems a lot less interesting, and far less involved in the 'fate' theme running through the story.

It certainly isn't "impossible", because anything is strictly speaking possible. The only problem is that it isn't actually implied by the game to be true to begin with, which is why it IS unlikely. You agreed yourself that the hints for the theory come from backwards reasoning, which is enough in itself to demonstrate why the theory is unlikely to be true. If it isn't suggested by the game, it cannot be considered a valid theory. It's that simple.

As for the theme of fate, the game itself readily implies a background for Ultimecia which links strongly into the theme of fate. That is, that Ultimecia was persecuted before doing anything because her fate was known to the public (she died in the past, remember, so she would have been as known to the FF8 world as say Hitler is to us), and in an attempt not only to get revenge on the people, but also to avoid her own supposed fate of dying at Squalls hand, she tries to inititate time compression, thus setting in motion the events that lead to her death. Perfectly fits in with fate, is implied by the game AND the Ultimania and doesn't require any baseless assumptions about Ultimecia really being a main character. It just doesn't make sense to try looking for technicalities that can allow R=U to work when it isn't really backed up by the game and the game itself offers a perfectly reasonable background to begin with!

The expanded theory described above can be read in the FAQ referred to.

I have never suggested Rinoa travelling to the future, all R=U theories I know of work around her surviving to the future (hence the problem posed by Ultimania). The time travel I was referring to was in fact TC. Squall and co. go to 'the future' and meet someone, storywise it isn't that strange that they should have met them (or a relation) before.

If you never meant to imply that Rinoa travels to the future I'm afraid I fail to see how the fact that timetravelling occurs in the game somehow makes R=U more plausible.

EDIT: Oh, and the Ultimania explicitly states that sorceressess have human lifespan, so it is impossible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia unless some necessarily baseless assumptions are made. Arguments such as Edea looking young don't mean anything against the Ultimania I'm afraid...

[PhoenixAsh]

though I have to say I've become less impressed by the Japanese text this time around. I remember it being more conclusive that Griever was summoned from Squall. In the quotations you posted, it seems at least fairly ambiguous what she is actually referring to. It also wasn't important enough to be retained in the translation.

Um, how is that ambiguous? Look at it again:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

She says to Squall that she will summon the strongest thing from his feelings, and that the more strongly he feels, the stronger the summoned thing will be. She then proceeds to summon Griever. Where exactly is the ambiguity?

It lies in the fact that Griever isn't a feeling. I don't know if something is lost in Japanese translation or what, but Griever, whilst fitting the timing and word 'summon' perfectly (depending on when Ultimecia says this), just doesn't fit the description. The description, though I can't at all justify this as a theory, would fit far better with Squall's isolation after the fight.

I still just don't see Griever as Squall's greatest fear.

I never said he was either. I said Squall considers Griever to be the strongest creature. I agree that Squall probably doesn't have nightmares about Griever, but he makes it clear what he thinks of him:

Squall: "It's not a monster. It's a lion. Lions are known for their
great strength and pride."

Although he doesn't explicitly say that Griever is the strongest creature ever, this background information is enough to justify Ultimecia's summoning of him.

As for the translation, it is implied (vaguely I'll admit) in the scan info that Griever is from Squalls mind, as it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF", but really it doesn't matter what the translation did and did not edit. The fact is that the japanese version is necessarily going to be closer to the truth.

EDIT: Squall thinking Griever stands for strength and pride... well it does in a way make sense that Ulti would summon it, but it is very tenuous IMHO. I admit R=U is tenuous as well, but I find it a much more appealling and neat explanation./EDIT
Used together with the Japanese text, then this would seem to confirm that Griever is from Squall's mind. Given the vast difference in the translations, I would be wary of assuming they CAN actually be used together to point to the same meaning, but thats a debate that would go nowhere slowly. This would really be a question of what counts as canon, what the writers intended, and such and such. As I honestly don't much care what the writers intended in this context (what they say they intended or what they say is canon IS canon, but not neccessarily the most reasonable, or attractive interpretation of their creation FFVIII).

Apart from Ultimania, I have yet to see anything which convinces me R=U is even close to impossible or even very unlikely. You can infer how a random individual could have become Ultimecia, but that seems a lot less interesting, and far less involved in the 'fate' theme running through the story.

It certainly isn't "impossible", because anything is strictly speaking possible. The only problem is that it isn't actually implied by the game to be true to begin with, which is why it IS unlikely. You agreed yourself that the hints for the theory come from backwards reasoning, which is enough in itself to demonstrate why the theory is unlikely to be true. If it isn't suggested by the game, it cannot be considered a valid theory. It's that simple.

As for the theme of fate, the game itself readily implies a background for Ultimecia which links strongly into the theme of fate. That is, that Ultimecia was persecuted before doing anything because her fate was known to the public (she died in the past, remember, so she would have been as known to the FF8 world as say Hitler is to us), and in an attempt not only to get revenge on the people, but also to avoid her own supposed fate of dying at Squalls hand, she tries to inititate time compression, thus setting in motion the events that lead to her death. Perfectly fits in with fate, is implied by the game AND the Ultimania and doesn't require any baseless assumptions about Ultimecia really being a main character. It just doesn't make sense to try looking for technicalities that can allow R=U to work when it isn't really backed up by the game and the game itself offers a perfectly reasonable background to begin with!

The expanded theory described above can be read in the FAQ referred to.

I haven't read the Ultimania, so I have no idea how much of that theory is from there. It makes sense, and is quite cool, though I honestly don't know why it is more founded than R=U. Its late here though, I might read the FAQ on it tomorrow.

I have never suggested Rinoa travelling to the future, all R=U theories I know of work around her surviving to the future (hence the problem posed by Ultimania). The time travel I was referring to was in fact TC. Squall and co. go to 'the future' and meet someone, storywise it isn't that strange that they should have met them (or a relation) before.

If you never meant to imply that Rinoa travels to the future I'm afraid I fail to see how the fact that timetravelling occurs in the game somehow makes R=U more plausible.

Because the party time travels (ish) during TC, and during the Laguna sequences. Its a story involving time travel, and Ultimecia is from the future, that is all I was saying, and is all that is needed to point out that some things become less odd.

EDIT: Oh, and the Ultimania explicitly states that sorceressess have human lifespan, so it is impossible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia unless some necessarily baseless assumptions are made. Arguments such as Edea looking young don't mean anything against the Ultimania I'm afraid...

I've already said Ultimania is a massive problem for R=U, and that the theory only really stands up as a possible speculation on what could fill the gaps if the game is taken as stand alone. R=U was being refuted long before the Ultimania translations surfaced, and I am merely defending it against those arguments. They were, in my experience far less convincing than the ones you have offered in the current thread, and the theory and its proponents are treated with an unfair amount of criticism.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Everybody calm down... Let's just voice our reasons why we think/believe/percieve Rinoa could become Ultimecia; let's stop putting out the "Why She Is Not". I for one think it's about time this theory be given a fair and free discussion. We can pickout "why not" later.

Because when you think about, most just counter with why it can not be; and never give a fair shake as to why it can be...

It's fantasy, kids, it's not gonna ruin you someone sees it different...

Jeez, it's not religion; 'so-called Christians' verus Judaism.

It's fantasy, and I want to voice and hear mine and others' opinions/view on how this could be.

This doesn't seem like 'Theory' thread to me.

Now, I'm still working on my one thesis on this, I wrote it years ago when the game first came out. Ask Dr. Unne, she/he knows.

Have fun kids and goodnight, I've got work in the morning.

[Sir Bahamut]

It lies in the fact that Griever isn't a feeling. I don't know if something is lost in Japanese translation or what, but Griever, whilst fitting the timing and word 'summon' perfectly (depending on when Ultimecia says this), just doesn't fit the description. The description, though I can't at all justify this as a theory, would fit far better with Squall's isolation after the fight.

Well, considering that she says she will summon something from Squalls feelings, and she then summons Griever, it's clear enough that Griever was what she saw within Squall. Whether or not it's a feeling or a thought or whatever is basically just semantics anyway. The crystal clear implication is that Griever came from within Squall's mind and emotions, and was used against him by Ultimecia.

Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut View Post

though I have to say I've become less impressed by the Japanese text this time around. I remember it being more conclusive that Griever was summoned from Squall. In the quotations you posted, it seems at least fairly ambiguous what she is actually referring to. It also wasn't important enough to be retained in the translation.


Um, how is that ambiguous? Look at it again:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

She says to Squall that she will summon the strongest thing from his feelings, and that the more strongly he feels, the stronger the summoned thing will be. She then proceeds to summon Griever. Where exactly is the ambiguity?


It lies in the fact that Griever isn't a feeling. I don't know if something is lost in Japanese translation or what, but Griever, whilst fitting the timing and word 'summon' perfectly (depending on when Ultimecia says this), just doesn't fit the description. The description, though I can't at all justify this as a theory, would fit far better with Squall's isolation after the fight.


Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut View Post

I still just don't see Griever as Squall's greatest fear.


I never said he was either. I said Squall considers Griever to be the strongest creature. I agree that Squall probably doesn't have nightmares about Griever, but he makes it clear what he thinks of him:

Squall: "It's not a monster. It's a lion. Lions are known for their
great strength and pride."

Although he doesn't explicitly say that Griever is the strongest creature ever, this background information is enough to justify Ultimecia's summoning of him.

As for the translation, it is implied (vaguely I'll admit) in the scan info that Griever is from Squalls mind, as it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF", but really it doesn't matter what the translation did and did not edit. The fact is that the japanese version is necessarily going to be closer to the truth.


EDIT: Squall thinking Griever stands for strength and pride... well it does in a way make sense that Ulti would summon it, but it is very tenuous IMHO. I admit R=U is tenuous as well, but I find it a much more appealling and neat explanation./EDIT

You finding R=U more neat and appealing does not count as an argument to it's validity, I'm afraid. The fact of the matter is that the explanation I am defending for why Griever was summoned is the explanation offered to us clearly by the game, and as such is harsly 'tenuous'. You haven't offered one valid theory which explains Ultimecia's words in any other way than that she summoned Griever as a psychological move against Squall. How you can then call it "tenuous" I'm not sure.

This would really be a question of what counts as canon, what the writers intended, and such and such. As I honestly don't much care what the writers intended in this context (what they say they intended or what they say is canon IS canon, but not neccessarily the most reasonable, or attractive interpretation of their creation FFVIII).

If your interest is not in finding out what the writers intended but to find out the most attractive theory, then I'm not sure why you are debating this. This argument is based on the premise that the writers intended something specific, and we are trying to find out what. It doesn't matter if you don't think their intended story was all that attractive. If you want to make attractive theories, then that's fine, but then it belongs to fanfic discussion, not logical arguments such as this.

Because the party time travels (ish) during TC, and during the Laguna sequences. Its a story involving time travel, and Ultimecia is from the future, that is all I was saying, and is all that is needed to point out that some things become less odd.

Some things, sure, but those things have no impact on the possibility or plausibility of R=U whatsoever.

R=U was being refuted long before the Ultimania translations surfaced, and I am merely defending it against those arguments. They were, in my experience far less convincing than the ones you have offered in the current thread, and the theory and its proponents are treated with an unfair amount of criticism.

I agree. Many people who mock R=U do so on a bad premise (ie. using bad arguments), and do sometimes mock the defender and not the theory. I know, because I used to defend the theory myself a long time ago. But "those arguments" have as far as I'm concerned been refuted, thus invalidating the theory even without the Ultimania. The counter to all the R=U arguments can be found in the FAQ referred to.

Everybody calm down... Let's just voice our reasons why we think/believe/percieve Rinoa could become Ultimecia; let's stop putting out the "Why She Is Not". I for one think it's about time this theory be given a fair and free discussion. We can pickout "why not" later.

Firstly, everybody's calm as far as I can tell. Secondly, people have been voicing reasons for why the think/believe/perceive Rinoa could become Ultimecia, and other people have been refuting them. You have to expect both sides in a debate. You can't just say "Everyone who don't believe it stop posting" or whatever. Thirdly, the theory HAS been given a fair and free discussion for years and years. The conclusion most people agree with after all these years of debate simply happens to be that the theory is invalid. Besides, I have covered all R=U arguments in the FAQ referred to, so it's all there anyway.

Because when you think about, most just counter with why it can not be; and never give a fair shake as to why it can be...

...I don't get it. If someone thinks the theory is not implied by the game and thinks it's basically impossible within the natural framework of the game, then obviously that someone doesn't think it "can be". I agree that everyone should openmindedly review the arguments on both sides, but if someone concludes that the theory is invalid, then what's wrong with that?

Anyway, in the FAQ referred to you can find a "fair shake" as to why it can be, before the debunking.

It's fantasy, and I want to voice and hear mine and others' opinions/view on how this could be.

It's fantasy, but it's also a written work that can be analysed. If you want to share your opinions on the theory you can't expect no one to come in and disagree with you. The moment you start making arguments based on the premise of a logical and rational debate, you're setting yourself up to be disagreed with. If you don't actually WANT any form of rational or logical debate then you shouldn't be making logical arguments to begin with.

Because it's completely absurd of you to try and dissuade any R=/=U believers from arguing so that all the R=U believers can post away in freedom.

[chronic_Maniac]

please drop the R=U

[Moon Rabbits]

To attempt to clear up a few things:

To say that it isn't hinted at is unfair. Some of Edea and Rinoa's lines in Edea's house show very strong foreshadowing,as if I remember correctly, does a scene where you see white feathers turn black, though I can't remember much about that. Though if the writers didn't intend R=U at all, these lose most of their force. Griever on the other hand is quite a big pointer. It's a symbol that only really connects to Squall and Rinoa, and I still think the intimidation explanation is just pointless.

I think you're referring to the very ending of the opening scene here. Feathers fly up across the screen when Squall slashes Seifer's face, and if I remember right they turn black and the opening fades out. Really, I don't think this is symbolic of anything, rather it's experimentation with the FMV technology of the game. Alot of the opening scene of FFVIII seems experimental (the theme, the text, the way the name of the game is presented (flashes of it in between scenes), Edea fading in and out of focus, etc. etc.). Tetsuya Nomura even said himself that he added the feathers to Squall's outfit because he thought 'it would be a challenge to show in the FMV movies'[source below].

Actually she'd have to be a lot older than that I think. I'm not sure how specific the dialogue is, but I always took it that Ultimecia existed at least 100 years after the game's main events, I can't actually remember why though.
It was generally taken (at least by me ), that Sorceresses either had longer lifespans than normal, or could sustain themselves magically. Evidence for this being the fact that Edea doesn't look nearly as old as she should, and arguably neither does Adel. Ultimecia in particular has a special relationship with time, though I can't remember exactly what it was, so I can't really back much up with that. I think the story of Hyne also might point towards such survival capabilities, but again, I've forgotten it.
Anyway, I don't know exactly what Ultimania says, but it seems to discredit at least a lot of the above speculation.

You remember that probably because Laguna says "Ultimecia exists in a time in which none of us can exist" (or something to that effect), she is too far in the future for any of the characters from the 'present' time in the game to survive, including Rinoa.

Also, Edea looks just as old as she should, after all she could very well only be in her late thirties - early forties. She especially looks her age when she goes back to being the good old 'matron' and dressing in her plain black dress. Furthermore, Edea was designed before Final Fantasy VIII was even conceived, thus lending light to why she may appear younger than she actually is.

Adel was sustained in a frozen reality, which explains why she did not age.

The only special relationship Ultimecia has with time is through Junction Machine Ellone. Without JME Ultimecia would have no access to the past or time in any way which discredits your statement.

Hyne also has nothing to do with this arguement, basically all it says is that Hyne made the world and his/her descendents are the sorceresses.

Sorceresses can´t die in spirit unless they pass on their powers their physical bodie dies if you kill them but their spirit which holds their power and wisdom is passed to another person, so the physical statement is still valid i think.

If I remember right, the part of the game you're referring to has Edea saying something like "a sorceress cannot rest in peace if she does not pass on her powers". She can't rest in peace, this doesn't mean she can't die and be uncomfortable in some sort of afterlife.

--------------

I would also like to try and debunk some of the "Ultimecia and Rinoa both have wings!!!" stuff.

Tetsuya Nomura started designing characters before Kazushige Nojima and Yoshinori Kitase began to flesh out the characters and storyline. Nomura even had some input on the personalities of the characters (especially Rinoa's).

When Nomura first designed Squall he felt he needed to add something to him to make him more memorable, this is where Squall's scar came from. Nojima was left with the task of determining the origin of this scar in the game's story.

Nomura created Rinoa with the intent of making her memorable over her cute girlishness over a girl remembered over how beautiful she was, thus explaining Rinoa's attitude.

So, if Nomura had all that sway over the characters when the game was still in pre-production stages, it's plausible (although not confirmed) that the wings upon Rinoa's back were there all along and have nothing to do with Ultimecia's wings.

It's just an idea, a rather weak one, but I think it has some credibility.

Sources:

http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=81&more=1
http://rinoa.nu/rinoa
http://www.wikipedia.org

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay a few things before I get into some responses, I'd say it'd clear things up to read this, but if you want to skip, my counter-arguments are highlighted below:

1) I still haven't read the FAQ, I am sorry for this, when I get time I will try, but I wanted to at least respond to what has been said in the meantime. I appreciate it may mean people having to offer answers already in the FAQ, and I am sorry.

2) I am completely calm, and ignoring a few unhelpful/off topic posts, I am quite pleased and impressed by the level of respect and argumentation in this thread.

3)

If your interest is not in finding out what the writers intended but to find out the most attractive theory, then I'm not sure why you are debating this. This argument is based on the premise that the writers intended something specific, and we are trying to find out what. It doesn't matter if you don't think their intended story was all that attractive. If you want to make attractive theories, then that's fine, but then it belongs to fanfic discussion, not logical arguments such as this.

Okay, this is just my stance, so if you don't find it agreeable, then fair enough. Basically no I don't think it matters what the writers intended (if they intended anything at all), it matters more what FFVIII the product indicates. If the question was "What did the writers intend?", then I would, based on Ultimania, say either nothing, or R=/=U. However if the question is "Based on the evidence presented in FFVIII the game, how strong/appealing is the possibility of R=U?", then this is a whole different ball game, is one that CAN be logically debated, and in my opinion is a worthwhile question.

This is a highly simplified example, but consider I offer this statement:
"I am a polygon with four sides of equal length."
Now I could be a rhombus or a square. Argueably one is more likely than the other, and a square is possibly (analogy is tricky here so bear with me) a neater answer. I could not be a triangle.

Now if it turns out I intended the answer to be a triangle, then you would not be forced to agree because it is my statement. If it turns out I intended to be a rhombus, then you would have to admit that I was a rhombus, but could still claim that based on my statement, a square was a more likely/appealing candidate. Though it might not be a very interesting discussion .


Right... thats the field of play I'm suggesting, if you find fault with it fair enough, and if such a debate does not appeal to you, fair enough. With Ultimania, then I concede that it is unlikely that R=U. I am only defending the plausability/appeal of R=U in terms of what is presented by FFVIII.

Also, given the way aisle_s described how the characters and story were created, I feel we may be better off using my method rather than appealing to the artistic integrity and vision of the writers methods .


COUNTER-ARGUMENTS:

Well, considering that she says she will summon something from Squalls feelings, and she then summons Griever, it's clear enough that Griever was what she saw within Squall. Whether or not it's a feeling or a thought or whatever is basically just semantics anyway. The crystal clear implication is that Griever came from within Squall's mind and emotions, and was used against him by Ultimecia.

Well, you may be correct here. I'm not confident on how and when it is presented in the Japanese version, or how well it is translated.
However, I would not dismiss my problem with the word 'feel' as semantics. If the specific word summon was changed, then the statement would not obviously point to Griever at all, so the strength of that word in supporting one version, seems to carry only equal weight as 'feel' does in debunking that version.
As for an alternative account, well, either an idle threat. The statement wasn't important enough to be translated properly, so this isn't that ridiculous. Or, though this is more reaching, she is talking about Squall's isolation after the fight. I can't back that up well, but it fits the description of both summon, and feeling, AND it is far more reasonable as something with which to intimidate Squall.

My description of the ‘summoned from Squall’s mind interpretation’ as tenuous, is simply because it just seems to me to be a really bad explanation. I just don’t see why Ultimecia would do it, or why Squall would be intimidated by Griever, or how the Griever summoned vaguely resembles Squall’s description.

My argument that TC makes R=U less odd as a theory: Time-travel stories often involve meeting future selves/ fate/ and what seem to be paradoxes. TC makes FFVIII a time-travel story. Therefore it is not that odd to suppose that FFVIII could feature meeting future selves/ fate/ and what seem to be paradoxes.


aisle_s regarding the feathers and the way in which characters were designed etc. I didn’t know that they designed characters before the game, and I find that very interesting. Before Ultimania I might have used the examples to suggest the writers intended R=U, but given that and what you said, it would seem silly to do that. I would say however that as symbols within the game, they do still benefit R=U, as the theory offers them an explanation with more substance than simply looking pretty. If you allow for symbolism to occur without the writers’ intent, then they support the theory by indicating it.

Regarding what Laguna says, and how Ultimecia relates to JME. I actually can’t remember the script. I still think Laguna is perfectly free to be wrong, or talking about normal humans rather than Ultimecia. I also don’t know the script well enough to say much. You may be right, and her relation to time is completely normal. Just how Rinoa survives to Ultimecia’s time is a very tricky issue, and I don’t want to try and defend it without proper knowledge.

[Sir Bahamut]

1) I still haven't read the FAQ, I am sorry for this, when I get time I will try, but I wanted to at least respond to what has been said in the meantime. I appreciate it may mean people having to offer answers already in the FAQ, and I am sorry.

Don't worry about it. I do strongly reccomend reading the entire section on Ultimecia there, because it will save us a lot of time, but please don't feel any need to rush. It is admittedly rather long after all =P

Okay, this is just my stance, so if you don't find it agreeable, then fair enough. Basically no I don't think it matters what the writers intended (if they intended anything at all), it matters more what FFVIII the product indicates. If the question was "What did the writers intend?", then I would, based on Ultimania, say either nothing, or R=/=U. However if the question is "Based on the evidence presented in FFVIII the game, how strong/appealing is the possibility of R=U?", then this is a whole different ball game, is one that CAN be logically debated, and in my opinion is a worthwhile question.

Well, I can appreciate that stance, even though I usually concentrate more on finding the intention of the writers when I analyse these things. Now, I agree that the issue can be logically debated and that it is certainly worthwhile, but I don't think the R=U is strong or appealing based entirely on the actual ingame facts either. The FAQ will demonstrate why, I suppose.

Also, given the way aisle_s described how the characters and story were created, I feel we may be better off using my method rather than appealing to the artistic integrity and vision of the writers methods

Perhaps. It's certainly arguable, but I feel that either way the theory falls short, so I guess it doesn't really matter to me that much.

Well, you may be correct here. I'm not confident on how and when it is presented in the Japanese version, or how well it is translated.

I suppose that's understandable. My translation here was given by a GameFAQs user a long time ago, and it's obviously impossible to really know the extent of its validity, but I think we can safely assume that it expresses the general points.

However, I would not dismiss my problem with the word 'feel' as semantics. If the specific word summon was changed, then the statement would not obviously point to Griever at all, so the strength of that word in supporting one version, seems to carry only equal weight as 'feel' does in debunking that version.

This could be argued back and forth I suppose, but in the end, Ultimecia says she will summon something from Squall, and she then summons Griever. It would be absurd to think that her threat of summoning "the most powerful of things" from Squall is in fact entirely unrelated to her summoning of Griever straight afterwards, when you consider that Squall has previously said that Griever is known for his "great strength". That would make no sense at all:

Ultimecia: "Hey Squall, I will now summon something very powerful from you and have you face it in battle.

*summons Griever*

Squall: "Oh noes, you summoned the creature I consider to be very powerful and strong! Your threat was not empty!"

Ultimecia: "Foolish SeeD, Griever came from somewhere entirely different lolz"

I just don't see it happening =P Merely calling it an "idle threat" still goes entirely against the fact that she summons Griever straight afterwards, and the loneliness Squall faces is due to TC and not Ultimecia, who iactually dies before Squall goes to that desert place. There simply MUST be a direct correlation between her threat and Griever. Her threat is like a gun, and Griever a bullet. The logical suggestion is that she actually fired the gun, but you are suggesting an entirely different gun was used.

I just don’t see why Ultimecia would do it, or why Squall would be intimidated by Griever, or how the Griever summoned vaguely resembles Squall’s description.

As established in my last post, Squall thinks of Griever as a very strong creature, quite possibly the strongest creature of his daydreams/imagination. He says as much in the game. You agree then that it would be highly reasonable that Ultimecia would set Squall up against that thing he considers so strong. It makes perfect sense from a tactical perspective, which is how Ultimecia would be thinking. Why Squall considers Griever so strong isn't up for debate, since he says it himself (see the quote in my last post). As for how Griever looks, well, Ultimecia probably embellished him to make him look even more intimidating.

My argument that TC makes R=U less odd as a theory: Time-travel stories often involve meeting future selves/ fate/ and what seem to be paradoxes. TC makes FFVIII a time-travel story. Therefore it is not that odd to suppose that FFVIII could feature meeting future selves/ fate/ and what seem to be paradoxes.

Not odd, sure, but not suggested to happen either.

I would say however that as symbols within the game, they do still benefit R=U, as the theory offers them an explanation with more substance than simply looking pretty. If you allow for symbolism to occur without the writers’ intent, then they support the theory by indicating it.

There is a symbolic explanation for the wings much simpler than R=U which is really much more plausible. You see, Ultimecia and Rinoa ARE connected in the sense that they both have the same set of powers (remember, this is without the initial assumption that R=U, in which case the game itself says that Ultimecia will inherit Rinoas powers eventually). However, the game shows the two possible outcomes of a sorceress with these powers. Ultimecia represents the outcome where the sorceress turns to evil. Rinoa represents the outcome where the sorceress stays good. This is seminal to Rinoa's developement when she becomes a sorceress; she recognises that she might well go down the same path as Ultimecia. However, in the end her knight Squall is able to save her.

Now where do the wings come in? Well, Rinoa and Ultimecia are symbollically connected through the wings, and since we have already establishes that Ultimecia is the evil sorceress and Rinoa is the good one, Ultimecia gets black wings and Rinoa white wings. It's merely classic good vs evil symbolism where black is bad and white is good.

This interpretation is highly intuitive, implied by the game and far more reasonable (in the sense that it's something Square tend to use in their games). Saying that the wings imply that Rinoa and Ultimecia are in fact the same person is simply taking a far too large leap. The symbolism is there, but it hardly extends as far as to suggest R=U.

PS: If you want a gamescript, you can find two here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

So many long arguments...

I was just wondering again...if Rinoa was Ultimecia how did she got wings? Because we see Rinoa with wings when she performs her limit break but those are spiritual wings while Ultimecia wings seem pretty real.

[PhoenixAsh]

This could be argued back and forth I suppose, but in the end, Ultimecia says she will summon something from Squall, and she then summons Griever. It would be absurd to think that her threat of summoning "the most powerful of things" from Squall is in fact entirely unrelated to her summoning of Griever straight afterwards, when you consider that Squall has previously said that Griever is known for his "great strength". That would make no sense at all:

Ultimecia: "Hey Squall, I will now summon something very powerful from you and have you face it in battle.

*summons Griever*

Squall: "Oh noes, you summoned the creature I consider to be very powerful and strong! Your threat was not empty!"

Ultimecia: "Foolish SeeD, Griever came from somewhere entirely different lolz"

I just don't see it happening =P Merely calling it an "idle threat" still goes entirely against the fact that she summons Griever straight afterwards, and the loneliness Squall faces is due to TC and not Ultimecia, who iactually dies before Squall goes to that desert place. There simply MUST be a direct correlation between her threat and Griever. Her threat is like a gun, and Griever a bullet. The logical suggestion is that she actually fired the gun, but you are suggesting an entirely different gun was used.

I see your point, and if we allow that the timing and translation are as strong as you suggest (again something I'll check later, but if you know, does she literally say it before the Griever fight, as in after you defeat her first form?), then very compelling. However I would suggest the analogy is slightly weaker than you suggest even in this case. It seems more akin to Ultimecia saying she will shoot Squall, aiming a gun at him, then a knife hitting Squall from the direction of the gun.
I admit I don't have a better explanation, and the isolation after the fight, though it fits better IMHO, does require quite a stretch, but the 'obvious' interpretation does have quite a gaping hole in it regarding the word 'feel', and given it was a final boss, you'd think that explanation should carry through a translation.

As established in my last post, Squall thinks of Griever as a very strong creature, quite possibly the strongest creature of his daydreams/imagination. He says as much in the game. You agree then that it would be highly reasonable that Ultimecia would set Squall up against that thing he considers so strong. It makes perfect sense from a tactical perspective, which is how Ultimecia would be thinking. Why Squall considers Griever so strong isn't up for debate, since he says it himself (see the quote in my last post). As for how Griever looks, well, Ultimecia probably embellished him to make him look even more intimidating.

Well... I'm torn here. There are times when I agree with you, and times when it still just seems completely daft. I know Squall says lions are strong, and given the (Japanese) text, it kinda fits... But still, if you iignore that text and just consider the actual situation... Is Squall likely to be intimidated by a figment of his imagination (or any monster for that matter)? Is there any real indication that Squall ever imagined Griever to be anything other than a lion, and even then, as something scary? Why would Ultimecia only summon Squall's worst fear, and how could she junction herself to it (something vague regarding Tiamat is flashing in my head as a counter to that second part, but I'll leave it for now..) Does the slight mention of Griever two discs prior really justify its position as 'what Squall considers strongest'? Even if it did then, would it still by Disc 4?... I'm sure this list goes on, and I know the text adds weight (arguably) to your version, but without it, it just doesn't really seem to stand up that well.

Not odd, sure, but not suggested to happen either.

Oh no, not at all. The TC/story stuff was merely to show that R=U shouldn't be dismissed as too outlandish, because in this type of story it isn't.

There is a symbolic explanation for the wings much simpler than R=U which is really much more plausible. You see, Ultimecia and Rinoa ARE connected in the sense that they both have the same set of powers (remember, this is without the initial assumption that R=U, in which case the game itself says that Ultimecia will inherit Rinoas powers eventually). However, the game shows the two possible outcomes of a sorceress with these powers. Ultimecia represents the outcome where the sorceress turns to evil. Rinoa represents the outcome where the sorceress stays good. This is seminal to Rinoa's developement when she becomes a sorceress; she recognises that she might well go down the same path as Ultimecia. However, in the end her knight Squall is able to save her.

Now where do the wings come in? Well, Rinoa and Ultimecia are symbollically connected through the wings, and since we have already establishes that Ultimecia is the evil sorceress and Rinoa is the good one, Ultimecia gets black wings and Rinoa white wings. It's merely classic good vs evil symbolism where black is bad and white is good.

This interpretation is highly intuitive, implied by the game and far more reasonable (in the sense that it's something Square tend to use in their games). Saying that the wings imply that Rinoa and Ultimecia are in fact the same person is simply taking a far too large leap. The symbolism is there, but it hardly extends as far as to suggest R=U.

Yeah you win that ... The feathers take on another layer meaning if R=U is true, but other than that you pretty much killed them as any kind of supportive tool .
Actually it just occurred to me... Does Adel have wings? I'm pretty sure Edea doesn't. If only Rinoa and Ultimecia have them, then whilst this is by no means conclusive, and you're right the symbolism of light versus dark still applies, then that fact does at least tenuously indicate a stronger relationship between Rinoa and Ultimecia than that they are both sorceresses.

So many long arguments...

I was just wondering again...if Rinoa was Ultimecia how did she got wings? Because we see Rinoa with wings when she performs her limit break but those are spiritual wings while Ultimecia wings seem pretty real.

Just evolution really. Rinoa can fly(ish) with those wings, so they have at least some physical potential. Plus Ultimecia has clearly physically changed due to her powers (unless future people are very scary looking ), so presumably if R=U, then Rinoa simply developed more physical wings along with all her other changes.

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

ok i got a few points


if rinoa was ulti how she transform yet in the game she can do nothing near that but call her dog

if ulti was rhinoa what happened to her dog

if rhinoa was ulti how did she get her wings out all the time

if rhinoa was ulti how did she get so smart as to build her own caasle

if rhinoa was ulti then how did rhinoa go from a nice little 17 year old to a 20 somewthing year old.

if rhinoa was ulti how did rhinoa learn all the adavanced maggics like apocolyse and malstorm if she was deep frezzed

if ulti was rhinoa why would she attack rhinoa in the final batttle it would be like her attacking her self

if rhinoa was ulti when did she start saying fufu

if rhinoa was ulti why did she give up her favorie weapon the pinwheel thing

if ulti was rhinoa when did rhinoa go from her blue robe to the skimpy clothing that ulti has

how would rhinoa habve learned so much power as to block off every city in the game

if rhinoa was ulti y did rhinoa have rinkles when u fight her many say that she used magic but when did she learn this magic so it seems prety crazy to say rhinoa was ulti


i think this whole thread was just a person wonder aboput the theroy but it is turning into another ru thread so i want some peace before another war starts

[licence]

if rinoa was ulti how she transform yet in the game she can do nothing near that but call her dog

Well later on in the game, Rinoa can infact use Angel Wings as her Limit Break. Also, she is meant to be older, people can become more knowledgable when they age, so perhaps she learnt more magic which allowed her to transform.

if ulti was rhinoa what happened to her dog

It died...dogs are known to have a life span of about 18 years, a lot less in some breeds.

if rhinoa was ulti how did she get her wings out all the time

That's a point which has been argued throughout the topic.

if rhinoa was ulti how did she get so smart as to build her own caasle

She was a soceress with powerful magic, I doubt it wopuld've been hard for her.

if rhinoa was ulti then how did rhinoa go from a nice little 17 year old to a 20 somewthing year old.

You do know that you fight Ulti in the future? Meaning that Rinoa would have aged.

if rhinoa was ulti how did rhinoa learn all the adavanced maggics like apocolyse and malstorm if she was deep frezzed

I don't know what you mean. Rinoa wasn't frozen at the end of the game.

if ulti was rhinoa why would she attack rhinoa in the final batttle it would be like her attacking her self

That's a point I agree with, but it could be said that in the ending, Rinoa lives. Gameplay is different from storyline.

if rhinoa was ulti when did she start saying fufu

Earlier in the thread it was said that that noise was simply meant to be a kind of laughing noise. Also it could have something to do with her insanity.

if rhinoa was ulti why did she give up her favorie weapon the pinwheel thing

She now has powerful magic, why the hell would she want to use a pinwheel.

if ulti was rhinoa when did rhinoa go from her blue robe to the skimpy clothing that ulti has

People can change their clothes, you know.

if rhinoa was ulti y did rhinoa have rinkles when u fight her many say that she used magic but when did she learn this magic so it seems prety crazy to say rhinoa was ulti

She could have learnt this magic over the years that gap between the present and Ulti's timezone.

I don't believe that R=U, but I had to reply to your post since the majority of your arguements minus 2 are quite trivial.

[DfKimera]

Yeah guys, i already got the theory

Still don't agree with it. First, because there are huge holes in it that nothing have filled yet, and second, because Rinoa is my favorite character and making her be also the villain does not please me