Explanation on the R=U theory?

[licence]

Can you tell me what plot holes are filled by the R=U theory?

[Sir Bahamut]

Why? What purpose could this serve, and how could it better justify the attention that Griever recieves throughout the game than R=U?

It's really simple you know. If you wanted to summon something to pit against your enemy, what would you summon? Well, you'll probably agree that pitting your enemy against the one thing he considers invincible might be a good idea, because it gives you a strong psychological advantage, no? Well, Griever is what Squall considers to be the strongest creature ever, so it is perfectly logical that when she scans his mind, she decides to summon exactly Griever.

There's no arguing about this really. Just look at what she says in the japanese version:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

It says flat out that she intends to pit Squall against what he considers to be the strongest thing ever to "torment [Squall]". The game offers this excellent and highly logical explanation without any need for "R=U" assumptions.

Griever doesn't get THAT much attention really. He is supposed to symbolise the values Squall admire, and fighting Griever is thus a symbolically potent battle. But there's nothing more to Griever than that; he's hardly payed as much attention as you seem to imply.

My point was that there are elements of the game that can be thought into, and my example was one generally agreed upon as being worthwhile and conclusive.

Definitely. Ultimecia's background and motives are very worthwhile to look into, but the game itself (backed by the Ultimania) offers a perfectly good explanation if you look closely enough, and logical arguments can easily demonstrate that although R=U may be a neat idea, it simply doesn't hold up. It's that simple.

My point was simply that stories involving time-travel frequently involve such occurences, and that the apparent oddness of R=U is lessened by this fact.

No, I'm afraid it isn't, for two reasons.

1) Your implication here requires timetravelling to the future, which is something we never see outside of TC. In other words, there's nothing in the game suggesting that after TC is finished, Rinoa would have any way of travelling to the future in order to become Ultimecia.

2) It isn't implied that Rinoa will go to the future at any point.

The fact that timetravelling occurs in FF8 doesn't in any way make the theory plausible. One could argue that it makes it "possible", but then anything is "possible" if you think hard enough.

EDIT: By the way, there is not a single "plothole" in FF8 that R=U 'answers' which does not already have a much simpler and more reasonable answer offered by the game itself.

[licence]

EDIT: By the way, there is not a single "plothole" in FF8 that R=U 'answers' which does not already have a much simpler and more reasonable answer offered by the game itself.

I thought so. But even then, what are these plotholes that people think are filled by R=U. Any plotholes that this fills or could have a chance of filling, is lost on me at this moment.

[PhoenixAsh]

Why? What purpose could this serve, and how could it better justify the attention that Griever recieves throughout the game than R=U?

It's really simple you know. If you wanted to summon something to pit against your enemy, what would you summon? Well, you'll probably agree that pitting your enemy against the one thing he considers invincible might be a good idea, because it gives you a strong psychological advantage, no? Well, Griever is what Squall considers to be the strongest creature ever, so it is perfectly logical that when she scans his mind, she decides to summon exactly Griever.

There's no arguing about this really. Just look at what she says in the japanese version:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

It says flat out that she intends to pit Squall against what he considers to be the strongest thing ever to "torment [Squall]". The game offers this excellent and highly logical explanation without any need for "R=U" assumptions.

Griever doesn't get THAT much attention really. He is supposed to symbolise the values Squall admire, and fighting Griever is thus a symbolically potent battle. But there's nothing more to Griever than that; he's hardly payed as much attention as you seem to imply.

You put your argument well... though I have to say I've become less impressed by the Japanese text this time around. I remember it being more conclusive that Griever was summoned from Squall. In the quotations you posted, it seems at least fairly ambiguous what she is actually referring to. It also wasn't important enough to be retained in the translation.

I still just don't see Griever as Squall's greatest fear. From what I remember, its just a lion (not a GF) according to Squall, and in no way does he seem scared of it. Plus, why is only Griever summoned? Not to mention that this is Squall, leader of SeeD, and unlikely to be scared by a monster. Solitude maybe, but a monster... no.

It just seems a really bad idea for a final boss.
Creator: "Hey look its Griever! Ooooooh"
Player: "Who?"
Creator: "You know from Squall's ring?"
Player: " The... the lion thing? Did it even have a name?"
Creator: "Yeah remember you named it two discs ago, we didn't mention the name since, just assumed you'd remember it. Anyway, as you know Squall said he was intimidated by it."
Player: "No he didn't."
Creator: "Well its big and scary."
Player: "And in no way resembles anything Squall described..."
Creator: "Well he was quiet back then, pay attention to the story!"
Player: "Uh....huh."

My point was that there are elements of the game that can be thought into, and my example was one generally agreed upon as being worthwhile and conclusive.

Definitely. Ultimecia's background and motives are very worthwhile to look into, but the game itself (backed by the Ultimania) offers a perfectly good explanation if you look closely enough, and logical arguments can easily demonstrate that although R=U may be a neat idea, it simply doesn't hold up. It's that simple.

Apart from Ultimania, I have yet to see anything which convinces me R=U is even close to impossible or even very unlikely. You can infer how a random individual could have become Ultimecia, but that seems a lot less interesting, and far less involved in the 'fate' theme running through the story.

My point was simply that stories involving time-travel frequently involve such occurences, and that the apparent oddness of R=U is lessened by this fact.

No, I'm afraid it isn't, for two reasons.

1) Your implication here requires timetravelling to the future, which is something we never see outside of TC. In other words, there's nothing in the game suggesting that after TC is finished, Rinoa would have any way of travelling to the future in order to become Ultimecia.

2) It isn't implied that Rinoa will go to the future at any point.

The fact that timetravelling occurs in FF8 doesn't in any way make the theory plausible. One could argue that it makes it "possible", but then anything is "possible" if you think hard enough.

EDIT: By the way, there is not a single "plothole" in FF8 that R=U 'answers' which does not already have a much simpler and more reasonable answer offered by the game itself.

I have never suggested Rinoa travelling to the future, all R=U theories I know of work around her surviving to the future (hence the problem posed by Ultimania). The time travel I was referring to was in fact TC. Squall and co. go to 'the future' and meet someone, storywise it isn't that strange that they should have met them (or a relation) before.



Sephiroth's Cage I apologise if I came across as attacking you. I know you were not advocating those ideas (not that I'd have attacked you either way ), I merely wanted to explain why I disagreed with them.


licence: The theory derives from filling plot-holes, and following hints. Plot holes include where Griever came from, who Ultimecia is, and why she doesn't have a knight. I believe there are others, though I have forgotten them. Hints include several lines of dialogue which heavily imply R=U, the fate theme, again Griever, the position of the castle (never was a huge fan of that argument myself), the feathers scene, claims of Rinoa and Ultimecia's similar appearances... Again I'm fairly certain there are a lot more.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Ok but if Rinoa was in fact Ultimecia and assuming she survives until Ultimecia time, then shouldn´t Ultimecia be an old woman?
In the present time Rinoa is 17 so in the future (and assuming the 50 year difference mark) she would be 67. My point is that Ultimecia does not look in any way like a 67 year old woman she looks like she is her late 20s or early 30s,so unless Rinoa was frozen in some place there is no way she could be Ultimecia.

[DfKimera]

Strange, when i fought Ultimecia, i didn't had these talkings about Griever. All I did was beat her to crap with Limit Breaks and Apocalypse magic until she died over and over. Of course, casting a few Regens and Full-Lifes so the party remains alive. Any ideas on that? Maybe I didn't refined a weapon or something, I don't know.

[PhoenixAsh]

Ok but if Rinoa was in fact Ultimecia and assuming she survives until Ultimecia time, then shouldn´t Ultimecia be an old woman?
In the present time Rinoa is 17 so in the future (and assuming the 50 year difference mark) she would be 67. My point is that Ultimecia does not look in any way like a 67 year old woman she looks like she is her late 20s or early 30s,so unless Rinoa was frozen in some place there is no way she could be Ultimecia.

Actually she'd have to be a lot older than that I think. I'm not sure how specific the dialogue is, but I always took it that Ultimecia existed at least 100 years after the game's main events, I can't actually remember why though.
It was generally taken (at least by me ), that Sorceresses either had longer lifespans than normal, or could sustain themselves magically. Evidence for this being the fact that Edea doesn't look nearly as old as she should, and arguably neither does Adel. Ultimecia in particular has a special relationship with time, though I can't remember exactly what it was, so I can't really back much up with that. I think the story of Hyne also might point towards such survival capabilities, but again, I've forgotten it.
Anyway, I don't know exactly what Ultimania says, but it seems to discredit at least a lot of the above speculation.


EDIT: DfKimera, the quote Sir Bahamut posted is from the Japanese version I believe. If I remember correctly then in one of the versions you get something similar through 'Scan'.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Ok but if Rinoa was in fact Ultimecia and assuming she survives until Ultimecia time, then shouldn´t Ultimecia be an old woman?
In the present time Rinoa is 17 so in the future (and assuming the 50 year difference mark) she would be 67. My point is that Ultimecia does not look in any way like a 67 year old woman she looks like she is her late 20s or early 30s,so unless Rinoa was frozen in some place there is no way she could be Ultimecia.

I don't go with the Sorceress's Don't Age thing either... But I gotta tell ya... Something asthetic is gotta be going on there. The horns and the wings of all Sorceresses... And Edea became a Sorceress over about 18 years ago, and she still looks hooooyawt! With all the physical changes in all Sorceresses, maybe the Sorceress Power causes a permanent 'look' while they still age naturally. Like Linda Carter... Wonda-WHOA-MAN!!!!!!!! LOL

This just a thought.... More on the next episode of... (Insert Title Here)

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Ok but if Rinoa was in fact Ultimecia and assuming she survives until Ultimecia time, then shouldn´t Ultimecia be an old woman?
In the present time Rinoa is 17 so in the future (and assuming the 50 year difference mark) she would be 67. My point is that Ultimecia does not look in any way like a 67 year old woman she looks like she is her late 20s or early 30s,so unless Rinoa was frozen in some place there is no way she could be Ultimecia.

Actually she'd have to be a lot older than that I think. I'm not sure how specific the dialogue is, but I always took it that Ultimecia existed at least 100 years after the game's main events, I can't actually remember why though.
It was generally taken (at least by me ), that Sorceresses either had longer lifespans than normal, or could sustain themselves magically. Evidence for this being the fact that Edea doesn't look nearly as old as she should, and arguably neither does Adel. Ultimecia in particular has a special relationship with time, though I can't remember exactly what it was, so I can't really back much up with that. I think the story of Hyne also might point towards such survival capabilities, but again, I've forgotten it.
Anyway, I don't know exactly what Ultimania says, but it seems to discredit at least a lot of the above speculation.

Well you have to consider that Edea is in her late 30s and as such her image corresponds to a late 30s year woman, as for Adel she was indeed in a "frozen like" state which would explain why she remains the same.
And the explanation that you give about Ultimecia is correct to a certain extent, Ultimecia can launch her "spirit" to the past but she cannot send her body and as such she would age if she was Rinoa and could not remain that young.

[McLovin']

Don't worry I didn't feel attacked PhoenixAsh.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well you have to consider that Edea is in her late 30s and as such her image corresponds to a late 30s year woman, as for Adel she was indeed in a "frozen like" state which would explain why she remains the same.
And the explanation that you give about Ultimecia is correct to a certain extent, Ultimecia can launch her "spirit" to the past but she cannot send her body and as such she would age if she was Rinoa and could not remain that young.

Is Edea late thirties? I honestly don't know, but she still looks pretty young if she is. Someone mentioned that Sorceresses can't die unless they pass on their powers, which I hadn't heard of before this thread, but its quite interesting given how isolated Ultimecia was...

As I have said before, and Pharoh Amon Khan III more recently. There IS something odd about the way sorceresses look, and the fact that Ultimecia doesn't look old, really doesn't hurt R=U much.

Adel was frozen yes, fair point, she can't be referenced for ageing... although she can be regarding appearance.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Sorceresses can´t die in spirit unless they pass on their powers their physical bodie dies if you kill them but their spirit which holds their power and wisdom is passed to another person, so the physical statement is still valid i think.

[McLovin']

I don't know if this is relevant or not but I remember another theory which said that the GF's of the game are actually all future versions of all the characters and they get summoned to battle by their past selves.

Kind of like the characters(gfs) are trying to help beat Ultimecia by somehow turning themselves into the GF's which they are familiar with.

Just a thought.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

I have also heard that theory that: Zell=Ifrit and stuff like that...but if you ask me it doesn´t make sense at all, GF are summonable monsters and i fail to see any spiritual resemblence or evidence given in the game of such a thing.

[McLovin']

Maybe GF's are here because of Time Compression.

We really do not know where they come from.