Explanation on the R=U theory?

[Moon Rabbits]

As established in my last post, Squall thinks of Griever as a very strong creature, quite possibly the strongest creature of his daydreams/imagination. He says as much in the game. You agree then that it would be highly reasonable that Ultimecia would set Squall up against that thing he considers so strong. It makes perfect sense from a tactical perspective, which is how Ultimecia would be thinking. Why Squall considers Griever so strong isn't up for debate, since he says it himself (see the quote in my last post). As for how Griever looks, well, Ultimecia probably embellished him to make him look even more intimidating.

Well... I'm torn here. There are times when I agree with you, and times when it still just seems completely daft. I know Squall says lions are strong, and given the (Japanese) text, it kinda fits... But still, if you iignore that text and just consider the actual situation... Is Squall likely to be intimidated by a figment of his imagination (or any monster for that matter)? Is there any real indication that Squall ever imagined Griever to be anything other than a lion, and even then, as something scary? Why would Ultimecia only summon Squall's worst fear, and how could she junction herself to it (something vague regarding Tiamat is flashing in my head as a counter to that second part, but I'll leave it for now..) Does the slight mention of Griever two discs prior really justify its position as 'what Squall considers strongest'? Even if it did then, would it still by Disc 4?... I'm sure this list goes on, and I know the text adds weight (arguably) to your version, but without it, it just doesn't really seem to stand up that well.

True, if we ignore the text then the idea seems a little less likely...but I could ignore alot of things in FFVIII and just as easily say that Quina = Ultimecia.

Yeah you win that ... The feathers take on another layer meaning if R=U is true, but other than that you pretty much killed them as any kind of supportive tool .
Actually it just occurred to me... Does Adel have wings? I'm pretty sure Edea doesn't. If only Rinoa and Ultimecia have them, then whilst this is by no means conclusive, and you're right the symbolism of light versus dark still applies, then that fact does at least tenuously indicate a stronger relationship between Rinoa and Ultimecia than that they are both sorceresses.

Adel does not have wings. However, the good vs. evil can still apply. Sure, they could've given Adel the black wings, but really Adel is only on the screen for about 15 minutes in a battle sequence and then never seen again so putting emphasis on her wings isn't going to be noticed as much as putting wings on the main female character and the main villain. Besides, Adel still does kind of have what could be likened to 'wings'.

[licence]

Hmmm, just a thought but maybe receiving soceress powers changes the person's appearance in different ways, varying from soceress to soceress.

For example - Adel is massive in height and muscular compared to Ulti who maintains a human form (until her final transformation) but simply gains black wings.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Y'know what I love and don't understand is that everyone accepts all other views of how the story ended, but this is the only view that's put to the test of 'theory' or 'proven 'theory'.

The ending is the where this argument begins and it's sad that it's birthed and unending feud.

Some people see the ending as Squall seeing Time being Uncompressed.

Some see it as Squall dying and his life flashing before his eyes.

But this Rinoa is Ultimecia idea is the only one that get slammed with hatred. Why? No other view are disputed except this one? Why?

It's madness. Each 'proof' of approving and disapproving are just as interperative as the one before and the next...

I'm still writing my essay, and I'll post it as soon as I can. Have fun kids. But in the meantime... Why do you love/hate it so?

[DfKimera]

Well, as I said before, I hate the theory because I love the character. And I love the way the game was put together, without the aid of any theories.

[licence]

It's not that I hate it, it's just that it doesn't seem completely plausible. But neither do the other two endings.

What I believe is different between this and the other theories though, is that people can interpret the ending on how they see it. R=U on the other hand just seems a little bit of a stranger theory because of the time gap between Rinoa's time and Ulti's time.

[PhoenixAsh]

True, if we ignore the text then the idea seems a little less likely...but I could ignore alot of things in FFVIII and just as easily say that Quina = Ultimecia.

Yeah I know, I tried to phrase my point better to avoid that response... guess I failed . I know the text IS relevant, I just wanted to highlight that ignoring the text, the summoning of Griever from Squall's mind isn't actually that logical. Because the text is there (and it IS vague), it can be taken for granted that the mind explanation is completely reasonable, which arguably isn't the case.

Oh and those things on Adel's back look a lot like wings to me. I just wondered if that was an avenue worth venturing down, guess not .


finalfantasyguy4ever: licence answered most of your points, but to add:
"if ulti was rhinoa why would she attack rhinoa in the final batttle it would be like her attacking her self"

Yes it would. The assumption being that she doesn't recognise herself. Rinoa can not die unless you get a game over, so there is no way for a paradox to arise.

Hmmm, just a thought but maybe receiving soceress powers changes the person's appearance in different ways, varying from soceress to soceress.

For example - Adel is massive in height and muscular compared to Ulti who maintains a human form (until her final transformation) but simply gains black wings.

I think that it is generally taken for granted that something along those lines occurs. It doesn't exactly 'support' R=U, but it does at least help it seem less abstract an idea as Ultimecia had to start off normal looking (and arguably with a different name), R=U merely posits that the normal person was in fact Rinoa.


EDIT: Three whole posts since I started typing! I can see why the theory gets stick, and I have to say it appealed to me far more a couple of years ago, when I preferred stories a little darker. Now I quite like a happy ending . I'm mainly defending the theory now because I am yet to be convinced that it is made unlikely by the game, and I think it gets an unfair amount of stick. I would however agree that it is very unlikely given Ultimania. Arguments in this thread against it have certainly been stronger (or at least better phrased) than ones I remember from past threads though.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

As established in my last post, Squall thinks of Griever as a very strong creature, quite possibly the strongest creature of his daydreams/imagination. He says as much in the game. You agree then that it would be highly reasonable that Ultimecia would set Squall up against that thing he considers so strong. It makes perfect sense from a tactical perspective, which is how Ultimecia would be thinking. Why Squall considers Griever so strong isn't up for debate, since he says it himself (see the quote in my last post). As for how Griever looks, well, Ultimecia probably embellished him to make him look even more intimidating.

Well... I'm torn here. There are times when I agree with you, and times when it still just seems completely daft. I know Squall says lions are strong, and given the (Japanese) text, it kinda fits... But still, if you iignore that text and just consider the actual situation... Is Squall likely to be intimidated by a figment of his imagination (or any monster for that matter)? Is there any real indication that Squall ever imagined Griever to be anything other than a lion, and even then, as something scary? Why would Ultimecia only summon Squall's worst fear, and how could she junction herself to it (something vague regarding Tiamat is flashing in my head as a counter to that second part, but I'll leave it for now..) Does the slight mention of Griever two discs prior really justify its position as 'what Squall considers strongest'? Even if it did then, would it still by Disc 4?... I'm sure this list goes on, and I know the text adds weight (arguably) to your version, but without it, it just doesn't really seem to stand up that well.

True, if we ignore the text then the idea seems a little less likely...but I could ignore alot of things in FFVIII and just as easily say that Quina = Ultimecia.

Yeah you win that ... The feathers take on another layer meaning if R=U is true, but other than that you pretty much killed them as any kind of supportive tool .
Actually it just occurred to me... Does Adel have wings? I'm pretty sure Edea doesn't. If only Rinoa and Ultimecia have them, then whilst this is by no means conclusive, and you're right the symbolism of light versus dark still applies, then that fact does at least tenuously indicate a stronger relationship between Rinoa and Ultimecia than that they are both sorceresses.

Adel does not have wings. However, the good vs. evil can still apply. Sure, they could've given Adel the black wings, but really Adel is only on the screen for about 15 minutes in a battle sequence and then never seen again so putting emphasis on her wings isn't going to be noticed as much as putting wings on the main female character and the main villain. Besides, Adel still does kind of have what could be likened to 'wings'.

All the Sorceresses had wings and horn. Be they clothing by design, ethereal representation, or physical mutation.

Edea had a headdress or mutation of her skull for her horns, and she wore a veiled cape in the style like wings.

Adel, also wore a horn style headress or physical mutation, and also wore a wing-motiff that hovered behind her seemingly 'attached'.

Rinoa... Though she does not have a horn motiff, she does have Ethereal Wings, when using the Sorceress Power.

And Finally, all the "Succession of Witches" have had the wings and horns and evolved through time (be it transition of Rinoa or not) to the Ultimate End of the Successsion: Ultimecia.

So, all Sorceresses have had and/or will have the horns/wings be they real or not, are a representation of a Sorceress... By what I can tell...

BTW: How the hell did Adel get so... Huge?

More later...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

It's not that I hate it, it's just that it doesn't seem completely plausible. But neither do the other two endings.

What I believe is different between this and the other theories though, is that people can interpret the ending on how they see it. R=U on the other hand just seems a little bit of a stranger theory because of the time gap between Rinoa's time and Ulti's time.

What I meant in my questioning is not the validity of the 'interpetation' but this was the immediate response for those that had just beaten the game. All had a different interpertation more or less like the ones I mentioned.

It was like the multiple interpetation of the ending of FFVII. Everyone had 'theories' but the bottomline is they were looking for solidity in their interpetation of the ending with like-minded people. And when questioned by their belief some willingly accepted the new ideals, while others stead-fast rejected them and found clues and 'facts' to hold their ground.

Most who are vehemtly against the R=U theory seem to not have the same views on how the story ended, but just that R=U is... to put it bluntly: Blashphemy.


Almost like "Virginia" trying to find proof that is a Santa Claus...

Let me give an personal example:

I never saw "Passion of the Christ". I felt I didn't need to. Most of the people I met that had seen it, repeated every word I had heard before. "It will change you life."; "The Jews Murdered Christ!", and on on... My reaction to the statement of 'murder' had me respond with..

"The Jew's did not murder Christ." I was often met with confusion or rejection with that statement, but I continued. "Technically it happened the way it was suppose to have happened. How else did you want him to die for your sins?"

Now my point is... Is that I just changed their general interpetation of a movie... Some were angered and accused me of atheism; others were so taken 'out of their box' or 'unplugged' that they stopped and thought turning away the general concensus and regaining individual thought again... I wondered why the anger versus the calm?


Please... Tell me.... What was your interpetation of the ending?

[Sir Bahamut]

Phoenix

I see your point, and if we allow that the timing and translation are as strong as you suggest (again something I'll check later, but if you know, does she literally say it before the Griever fight, as in after you defeat her first form?), then very compelling. However I would suggest the analogy is slightly weaker than you suggest even in this case. It seems more akin to Ultimecia saying she will shoot Squall, aiming a gun at him, then a knife hitting Squall from the direction of the gun.
I admit I don't have a better explanation, and the isolation after the fight, though it fits better IMHO, does require quite a stretch, but the 'obvious' interpretation does have quite a gaping hole in it regarding the word 'feel', and given it was a final boss, you'd think that explanation should carry through a translation.

Although I can agree that "feel" is perhaps a somewhat ambiguous word in this context and not the most appropriate word ("mind" or something would have been better), it is far less a stretch to say that it really refers to Squall's minds/thoughts than to say that Griever came from somewhere completely different. And given the two choices, I'm rather prone to picking the one which is more reasonable and much less of a stretch (I wouldn't personally call it a stretch at all though).

As for the translation, well, we don't really know the first thing about that. Maybe there was confusion, or they thought the scan info was enough to convey the same meaning, or they were also puzzled by the word "feeling". Maybe it was a bit of bad writing by the Japanese scripters. Who knows? At the end of the day, we're better of sticking to the Japanese bit as far as I'm concerned.

Well... I'm torn here. There are times when I agree with you, and times when it still just seems completely daft. I know Squall says lions are strong, and given the (Japanese) text, it kinda fits... But still, if you iignore that text and just consider the actual situation... Is Squall likely to be intimidated by a figment of his imagination (or any monster for that matter)? Is there any real indication that Squall ever imagined Griever to be anything other than a lion, and even then, as something scary? Why would Ultimecia only summon Squall's worst fear, and how could she junction herself to it (something vague regarding Tiamat is flashing in my head as a counter to that second part, but I'll leave it for now..) Does the slight mention of Griever two discs prior really justify its position as 'what Squall considers strongest'? Even if it did then, would it still by Disc 4?... I'm sure this list goes on, and I know the text adds weight (arguably) to your version, but without it, it just doesn't really seem to stand up that well.

As aisle said, and you agreed, the text IS important. Of course it wouldn't make much sense without the text because then Griever would come out of nowhere, but as it is, we have at least a reasonable case to make based on the text. You may think it's daft, and that it wasn't made a big enough deal of in the game to warrant it becoming a final boss (I agree on the latter), but hey, Square aren't always perfect (not nearly always really). They could have made it more clear, but were perhaps a bit sloppy. However, upon critical analysis, it is clear enough that the most plausible explanation is that Griever was summoned from Squalls mind because Squall considers it to be the strongest thing he knows of. If anything, the superiority of this explanation becomes apparent by the fact that there really aren't any alternate explanations which don't require huge baseless assumptions or simply are huge stretches.

As for why Ultimecia would only summon Squall's worst fear, well, he is the leader, and if you go by the idea that she was aware of her fate of dying at Squall's hand (a theory supported by the game and the Ultimania, as stated previously), it makes perfect sense to single him out. Even without that theory as a reference, it makes sense simply because Squall is the leader of the group. Finally, the question why she could junction herself to him isn't really relevant; she's a sorceress, she can do lots of strange things =P

Oh no, not at all. The TC/story stuff was merely to show that R=U shouldn't be dismissed as too outlandish, because in this type of story it isn't.

I still have to disagree though. TC stuff makes some stuff not outlandish, but I can't see how it lessens the outlandishness of R=U in any way.

PAK:

Some people see the ending as Squall seeing Time being Uncompressed.

Some see it as Squall dying and his life flashing before his eyes.

But this Rinoa is Ultimecia idea is the only one that get slammed with hatred. Why? No other view are disputed except this one? Why?

I don't know what experiences you have, but I "slam" the theory that Squall dies as much as R=U. Of course, the difference between interpretations on the ending and R=U is that the oddity of TC itself will always leave room for a certain amount of leeway. R=U however does not have that benefit as it is examined as something relevant throughout the ENTIRE game, instead of just the ending. Because of the fact that the theory then simply isn't implied throughout the game, it will thus be called invalid quicker than most theories examining only the ending.

EDIT: Of course, a lot of animosity has been built up against the theory because many less patient people start stereotyping all R=U defendants as being unwilling to see the facts and that they are blinded by their near religious belief in it. Unfortunately, that's true for some people, and has led to some unfortunate stereotpying.

Oh, and please, before posting your full essay here, I would strongly recommend reading the referred to FAQ. Not that it's the best thing since sliced bread or anything, but if your essay merely repeats what's in there without the counterarguments or ignores everything in there alltogether, then your essay will be pretty pointless and really just a waste of your time, because I'll only respond with "Read the FAQ".

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

this has become the r=u thread without viator wasnt this thread closed or something before leave rhinoa alone its a game

[Sir Bahamut]

For someone with a username like "finalfantasyguy4ever" you're not the best person to judge this discussion (on a board intended for discussing games, mind you) for being about a game. :rolleyes2

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

this has become the r=u thread without viator wasnt this thread closed or something before leave rhinoa alone its a game

I think we have the right to expeculate as much as we want both the defenders of the theory and the offenders of the theory. Those who do not which to participate don´t need to post in this thread and can keep theirv thoughts to themselfes.

[licence]

Please... Tell me.... What was your interpetation of the ending?

I always seen the ending as Squall losing hope in his friends and perhaps reaching near death until he started to envision Rinoa. Which helped pull him out of the desert place. Didn't he also end up in the flower field so he started to think of Rinoa waiting for him, in a place that she said she would always be.

Bear in mind, I finished the game months ago and can't remeber everything from the ending.

Also I'd like to add that this has been one of few discussion threads I have seen so far that has been pretty calm and well debated.

[Moon Rabbits]

I never thought the end of the game was Squall's death...in fact, I dislike the idea alot.

I always thought that the end was Squall not following Laguna's advice...you know when he said to get back you had to believe in your friends and go where they are or whatever? Well, Squall's a loner so he got lost in the uncompression of time (perhaps why he ended up at Edea's orphanage first). However, once he remembered Rinoa he successfully came back to the present.

[Ryushikaze]

The ending was Squall getting lost in time, then having a series of hallucinations over a number of other ways past events could have gone, then he falls down, then Rinoa finds him.

As for why R=U is frowned upon, it's an outrageous claim with insufficient evidence. Der.