Explanation on the R=U theory?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Did anyone ever tell you you're unreasonably demanding? :rolleyes2 The correct answer/s have already been given several times, and yet you dismiss them because they're not what you wanted to hear? Sorry, but that's your problem, not ours, so you're wasting everyones time by continously interrogating everyone as to why they dislike R=U.

Nope. Not meeting my satisfactory demands. :rolleyes2 Next...!

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

This is just like the time I gave my 'facts' (really opinions, yeah turn on me , I know ya wanna )

Anyway, this is just reminds me of that time when someone said something to the effect that Selphie could be a Sorceress... That's... Not possible... People argued that to the teeth and I was one of the none believers too,... wait for it... BUT.... I did agree with the possibility she could be in line of the "Succession of Witches"... Boy did I get flamed for that one too. At this point, I realized that this was exactly what you accuse me of... Wanting people to 'see it my way'... Yeah, that was just like the Para-Magic discussion where other bombarded me about the JME theory of Para-Magic when I didn't agree, but I understood. There were no 'facts' to support a JME in conjuction with Para-Magic, but I could understand the origin of that theory...

HOWEVER... when I suggested that Para-Magic was an innate ability... Again,... boy did I get slammed.

There were no facts for the JME being used for Para-Magic by the military, no more than my natural ability...

Point being... It's all inspiration from a game/story we all love/hate...

That's why I say views. My quest is to understand why people hate the view of R=U... So called 'facts' don't prove anything...

[PhoenixAsh]

Hey! Sorry my internet died for the last week... man this thread went to Hell quickly... Its a shame, it was going so well...

I'm not gonna try and get this debate going again, unless it sparks to life somehow, though I would like to make a brief comment on the recent discussion.

The theory is "hated" by some because they think it is an entirely invalid theory with no supporting evidence which regardlessly is defended by 14-year olds with bad grammar who say nothing but "it's all opinion lol" in threads that invariably end up as massive trollfests because every FF board has at least one exceedingly stubborn supporter who won't ever back down.

That's why. It's simply because most peoples experiences with the theory and it's supporters has given it a severely negative connotation. That and the fact that many find it frustrating that so many people believe it for no reason when it is clearly NOT supported by the game.

I know, that you were simply explaining why people hate the theory, and that makes the above perfectly valid, but I do feel it reflects an overall unfair view (perhaps not your own but in others) of the R=U debate. It is VERY often the opponents of R=U who offer nothing productive in posts, and often fail to refuse to drop completely invalid points (Rinoa not dieing when Ulty does for example). I won't point them out, but there are numerous examples in this thread, and this one has been relatively mature.
I'm not saying advocates of R=U don't act like you described, but they do get a disproportionate amount of stick IMHO.

PS. I quoted you because it was the easiest to construct a general response to, not because I disagreed with what you said.

[Ryushikaze]

This is just like the time I gave my 'facts' (really opinions, yeah turn on me , I know ya wanna :D )

For future reference, you are not as witty as you seem to think you are.

Anyway, this is just reminds me of that time when someone said something to the effect that Selphie could be a Sorceress... That's... Not possible... People argued that to the teeth and I was one of the none believers too,... wait for it... BUT.... I did agree with the possibility she could be in line of the "Succession of Witches"... Boy did I get flamed for that one too. At this point, I realized that this was exactly what you accuse me of... Wanting people to 'see it my way'... Yeah, that was just like the Para-Magic discussion where other bombarded me about the JME theory of Para-Magic when I didn't agree, but I understood. There were no 'facts' to support a JME in conjuction with Para-Magic, but I could understand the origin of that theory...

Junction Machine hypothesis, not a Junction Machine Ellone theory. And yes, it does have evidence, such as magic support tech, Junction Machine Ellone, Robots using Magic, etc.

HOWEVER... when I suggested that Para-Magic was an innate ability... Again,... boy did I get slammed.

Because we have direct evidence that suggests that it is not so, at least for terrestrial organisms, namely, the playable party.

There were no facts for the JME being used for Para-Magic by the military, no more than my natural ability...

There were facts AGAINST your postulate. JM Hypothesis, with no contradictory elements, wins by default.

Point being... It's all inspiration from a game/story we all love/hate...

That's why I say views. My quest is to understand why people hate the view of R=U... So called 'facts' don't prove anything...

You've been given several reasons. But let me wrap it all up into the answer I suspect you want. "IT'S TEH STOOPID, LOLZ!"

Seriously, we hate it because 1- It violates parsimony, specifically that we have no reason to believe sorceresses are immortal- aside from one line which must be taken out of context to mean so, and which is invalidated by Adel's search for a successor- and Ultimecia never had a knight, unlike Rinoa. It is an incredibly extraordinary claim, requiring some really solid evidence that its supporters have never been able to provide.
2- it would require Rinoa to have such a complete change of personality that Ulti would only share a body with the Rinoa we know.
3- It really just doesn't do anything at all for the story.
4- There isn't any official support for it, and official evidence against, given the explicit "Sorceress's have a normal human lifespan"

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Somehow I knew that would draw you out... And everything you just said is... well... B.S. There's no 'evidence' and Yeah... Rinoa still COULD be Ultimecia... That's it. No matter what you say or whatever "facts" you come up with you can't change my or anyone's mind. There's not sense in me explaining it to you because you're always gonna just called it a 'postulate' or whatever...

You and your's treat this as if it should not even be spoken about, like it's 'against the law'.

Why is that?

Now, you can keep spouting all you want... I've heard it all before... For once SOMEONE is going to post their beliefs about the R=U and admit that there is NOTHING you and yours can do... You can't stop me and mine from thinking, believeing or whatever about no more than a Christian can 'convert' a devout Muslim.

So sit back... flip through your thesaurus... Cuz, it's on...

Mommy put the kids to bed and break out the "His" and "Hers" paddles, DADDY'S HOME!!! (It's a new quote I'm working on. Just tryin' it out)

[licence]

It's a stupid theory which kills the story of FFVIII. Rinoa is not Ultimecia, Square has never said so. If the game makers don't mention it and didn't intend it. It isn't true.

Ryushikaize's arguments were not BS, they were the arguments that kill the R=U theory.

[Skyblade]

Somehow I knew that would draw you out... And everything you just said is... well... B.S. There's no 'evidence' and Yeah... Rinoa still COULD be Ultimecia... That's it. No matter what you say or whatever "facts" you come up with you can't change my or anyone's mind. There's not sense in me explaining it to you because you're always gonna just called it a 'postulate' or whatever...

You and your's treat this as if it should not even be spoken about, like it's 'against the law'.

Why is that?

Now, you can keep spouting all you want... I've heard it all before... For once SOMEONE is going to post their beliefs about the R=U and admit that there is NOTHING you and yours can do... You can't stop me and mine from thinking, believeing or whatever about no more than a Christian can 'convert' a devout Muslim.

So sit back... flip through your thesaurus... Cuz, it's on...

Mommy put the kids to bed and break out the "His" and "Hers" paddles, DADDY'S HOME!!! (It's a new quote I'm working on. Just tryin' it out)

Congratulations, you've just won the idiot of the month award. Sorry, but claiming that everything that someone else has posted is BS, without evidence, does not make you right. Quite the opposite, it makes you an moronic stubborn jack@$$ who is unable to formulate a logical reply and must thus stick to petty insults. In fact, such a response, from someone who apparently didn't even bother to read the post he was responding to, makes me wonder if there is any point to going on with this at all.

The reason we hate hearing about it, is because we have yet to hear a single, coherent, logical explanation that would explain why the R-U theory could possibly be true.

In order to have a theory which anyone will be willing to listen to, you must have one that can find a way around these facts:
1. Ultimecia lives many generations in the future.
2. Square explicitly stated that the lifespan of a sorceress is no longer than that of an average human.

Every R=U theory ever presented, even before Square gave us the second fact I listed and made the theory completely impossible, has made a great series of assumptions to support their theory (and yours is no different). And, quite frankly, that is enough to ruin the theory right there. When presenting a theory, the burden of proof lies with the person formulating the theory. The more assumptions your theory makes, the less acceptable it is. Prove your theory with quotes and canon evidence. Otherwise, we will continue to ridicule you, for you will be continuing to be deserving of that ridicule.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Somehow I knew that would draw you out... And everything you just said is... well... B.S. There's no 'evidence' and Yeah... Rinoa still COULD be Ultimecia... That's it. No matter what you say or whatever "facts" you come up with you can't change my or anyone's mind. There's not sense in me explaining it to you because you're always gonna just called it a 'postulate' or whatever...

You and your's treat this as if it should not even be spoken about, like it's 'against the law'.

Why is that?

Now, you can keep spouting all you want... I've heard it all before... For once SOMEONE is going to post their beliefs about the R=U and admit that there is NOTHING you and yours can do... You can't stop me and mine from thinking, believeing or whatever about no more than a Christian can 'convert' a devout Muslim.

So sit back... flip through your thesaurus... Cuz, it's on...

Mommy put the kids to bed and break out the "His" and "Hers" paddles, DADDY'S HOME!!! (It's a new quote I'm working on. Just tryin' it out)

Congratulations, you've just won the idiot of the month award. Sorry, but claiming that everything that someone else has posted is BS, without evidence, does not make you right. Quite the opposite, it makes you an moronic stubborn jack@$$ who is unable to formulate a logical reply and must thus stick to petty insults. In fact, such a response, from someone who apparently didn't even bother to read the post he was responding to, makes me wonder if there is any point to going on with this at all.

The reason we hate hearing about it, is because we have yet to hear a single, coherent, logical explanation that would explain why the R-U theory could possibly be true.

In order to have a theory which anyone will be willing to listen to, you must have one that can find a way around these facts:
1. Ultimecia lives many generations in the future.
2. Square explicitly stated that the lifespan of a sorceress is no longer than that of an average human.

Every R=U theory ever presented, even before Square gave us the second fact I listed and made the theory completely impossible, has made a great series of assumptions to support their theory (and yours is no different). And, quite frankly, that is enough to ruin the theory right there. When presenting a theory, the burden of proof lies with the person formulating the theory. The more assumptions your theory makes, the less acceptable it is. Prove your theory with quotes and canon evidence. Otherwise, we will continue to ridicule you, for you will be continuing to be deserving of that ridicule.

... You asked for it "Richard"... But it's gonna be pointless. No matter what I say or post... You're never gonna accept it. Which is why these are views and nothing else. And the bottom line is... You just don't want people to see it any other way than yours. I'm not saying that Rinoa is "Definitely" Ultimecia... Only that I, YES, I can see that as possibility. And one LAST TIME... I AM NOT MAKING "THEORIES"...

I'm simply stating... "Yeah,... That makes a whole lotta sense. This explains a lot a questions to an already crappy puzzled story."

And again, I ask the questiion... Why can't people have the freedom to talk/post, great helled-horrors, even think about R=U?

Stop spittin' at me about 'theories' and 'facts' and all that, cuz that's not gonna work with me. I want to know why you don't allow people talk about it? Why is it so wrong to you and yours?

But at any rate, I'll just keep posting... Hell, consider me the 'villian' that gives you 'heroes' something to do while you sit around in your mansion sippin' tea. (That analogy kinda trailed off, but I think you get my point).

[Sir Bahamut]

I know, that you were simply explaining why people hate the theory, and that makes the above perfectly valid, but I do feel it reflects an overall unfair view (perhaps not your own but in others) of the R=U debate. It is VERY often the opponents of R=U who offer nothing productive in posts, and often fail to refuse to drop completely invalid points (Rinoa not dieing when Ulty does for example). I won't point them out, but there are numerous examples in this thread, and this one has been relatively mature.
I'm not saying advocates of R=U don't act like you described, but they do get a disproportionate amount of stick IMHO.

Well, I suppose you're right in asserting that anti R=U debaters can be just as moronic as R=U believers. But to be frank, I can't help going easier on moronic anti R=U debaters, simply because with them I only get frustrated by their bad arguments. With R=U believers, it's not only bad arguments, but an obvious unwillingness to admit the faults of the theory because they clearly WANT to believe it so bad.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

[/QUOTE]Well, I suppose you're right in asserting that anti R=U debaters can be just as moronic as R=U believers. But to be frank, I can't help going easier on moronic anti R=U debaters, simply because with them I only get frustrated by their bad arguments. With R=U believers, it's not only bad arguments, but an obvious unwillingness to admit the faults of the theory because they clearly WANT to believe it so bad.[/QUOTE]

See, that's what's I'm talking about... I can see the faults of R=U and I can see the faults of "Anti-R=U" as well as all the other views of how the ending goes... I mean, c'mon... There's countless versions of the following but... NO ONE can explain the "Exploding Space Helmet"!

And that's fine... I just like hear all the different view and interpetations

I like Rinoa is Ultimecia... I just don't see why it can't be? It sense to me; and somehow that rubs people the wrong way. Again, much like Christians and Muslims... Why?

[PhoenixAsh]

Well, I suppose you're right in asserting that anti R=U debaters can be just as moronic as R=U believers. But to be frank, I can't help going easier on moronic anti R=U debaters, simply because with them I only get frustrated by their bad arguments. With R=U believers, it's not only bad arguments, but an obvious unwillingness to admit the faults of the theory because they clearly WANT to believe it so bad.

Hehe, I guess thats fair (if perhaps a little biased :P). They annoy me too because they make the theory look bad . I still think they get an unfair amount of stick though. Some non-believers do seem to able to get away with far more arrogance or abuse seemingly because their interpretation is more widely accepted. For example wandering into a thread and saying nothing other than demanding it be closed would generally be considered mod-whoring or worse.

[Sir Bahamut]

Yeah, I can't help being somewhat biased. But you're right about it being a bit extreme demanding the topic be closed. Again though, it's got to do with previous experiences, but I suppose the failure of previous topics cannot wholly be placed on supporters of the theory.

NO ONE can explain the "Exploding Space Helmet"!

That's not correct. The technical reason as to why it appears is fairly trivial really, but the symbolic interpretation is another matter.

I like Rinoa is Ultimecia... I just don't see why it can't be? It sense to me; and somehow that rubs people the wrong way.

The fact that you think it makes sense doesn't mean it does. The comparison to religion is absurd; a rational debate on the validity of the theory is NOT based on belief, it is based on logic and rational thought.

[Wilder]

Mi first post in loong time. The R-U theory haters and lovers are just trying to prove their points without understanding that the two sides are right, the theory is not made up, it is sugested by that FMV, and a FMV incerted in the end of the game is official material, you can´t just say that rinoa is not switching with ultimecia in those frames, but if we begin to deal with tons of time travel theories or lifespam guides, inmediatly the point get lost. The intro and the ubication of ultimecia´s castle, official, is right there. Quistis talking about the Guardian´s effect on memory and Ultimecia using Guardian is right there( wich one is irrelevant ) , she could have lost her memory. Now, can rinoa live to become ultimecia according to the trillion of lifespam and time travel theories? that was so ambiguous in the game that anything could be true. The guides? ultimania ? Square is contradicting the whole FF7 ending with the FFVII compilation, stretching the story, creating backwards characters to make more sequels, so if you ask them you´re going to get only political answers like, if rinoa is ultimecia would you buy a movie about that ?. R-U Is not true or false, and thats what makes FFVIII a work of art.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Okay, see, you're doing it again.

You're picking apart anything I post. I never said that was true. I just said it makes sense to me. I don't what's with that.

Your responding post is perfect example of my original statement. Let it go, aight?

I just want to post what I think and share it with others instead of being hesitant, or afraid, because of the 'haters' and have it closed because of the results flames... It's not gonna go away. You can't change my mind and I don't want to change yours'. Just let people be. I could 'disprove' the JME but I don't want to because of the resulting flames, much when I just said that "I THINK" that Para-Magic is a innate ability to answer the question of "HOW DO GALBADIAN SOLIDERS USE PARA-MAGIC".

I don't need to do that. I believe that R=U 'theorists' are like "Sorcersses"... We're hunted down by you "SeeDs". You see us as nothing more than your missonary belief to "Kill All Sorceresses" and we not all bad.... We just want to discuss this and have fun. But some reason, this tempts you to attack... Again, just like so-called Christians vs. Muslims... (Yeah, I'm gonna keep making that reference hoping you'll understand what I'm gettin' at).

I never started this post... Someone else did. And I thought I would/could share my views on the subject without being singled-out, hemuliated, chastised, belittled, and just basically trashed, stomped, and drug through the mud.

Why can't this ever be discussed? Because you simply loathe the idea of it so? Why?

Now, I want you to know, I've been working on my R=U 'essay', but I'm seeing more and more evidence as to "Why Am I Writing This?" and "Why Should I Post It?"

I know by that statement I've opened myself up. And I've made similar statements previous for people focus on and piece out for a retort. And I'll keep doing it. Until I get my answer and I feel that R=U spectators get their fair shake.

MOMMY! PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS!! DADDY'S HOME! (That one work better? I like the previous one more though).

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Mi first post in loong time. The R-U theory haters and lovers are just trying to prove their points without understanding that the two sides are right, the theory is not made up, it is sugested by that FMV, and a FMV incerted in the end of the game is official material, you can´t just say that rinoa is not switching with ultimecia in those frames, but if we begin to deal with tons of time travel theories or lifespam guides, inmediatly the point get lost. The intro and the ubication of ultimecia´s castle, official, is right there. Quistis talking about the Guardian´s effect on memory and Ultimecia using Guardian is right there( wich one is irrelevant ) , she could have lost her memory. Now, can rinoa live to become ultimecia according to the trillion of lifespam and time travel theories? that was so ambiguous in the game that anything could be true. The guides? ultimania ? Square is contradicting the whole FF7 ending with the FFVII compilation, stretching the story, creating backwards characters to make more sequels, so if you ask them you´re going to get only political answers like, if rinoa is ultimecia would you buy a movie about that ?. R-U Is not true or false, and thats what makes FFVIII a work of art.

Y'know what? (pats chest) From here on out... You my N-word! Aight! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! K-Sah-Rah-Sah-RAH! LOL!!!!

If the haters hate this so much... Why else would they even bother coming to these threads after all these years other than to trash an idealic view FFVIII, than to make themselves feel good? And y'know, that's probably what it's all about... Dominant 'God-like' power to crush dreams and souls. They even got a 'Bible' that goes against R=U.

Alla gotta say is: Hey, Jacks, if you don't like the food here, IHOP is just around the corner.... LOL (Waitaminute, should I use that as a quote?)