Explanation on the R=U theory?

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

i say the r=u is wrong because the people who made the game said its not true how much more do u want

[PhoenixAsh]

finalfantasyguy4ever we have already discussed that it is perfectly possible to debate whether or not one can hold that the game suggests R=U without holding that R=U is cannon when everything else is considered. If you do not wish to take part in such a discussion, then no one will force you. If you do wish to take part, then please offer further reasons for your opinion of why R=U is wrong (those you offered earlier were fairly well refuted IMHO).

I don't want this thread to stay off topic, so I'm only posting this because it summarizes earlier discussion of the scope of an R=U debate, and thus is of assistance to people who haven't read the whole thread. This thread is discussing whether or not R=U stands up from the evidence in the game (perhaps some might defend it fuller than that, but I haven't seen such an attempt), and also if, and if so the reason why, the theory and its proponents get unfairly persecuted.

EDIT: perhaps that was a little too limited, I apologise to anyone (particularly the original poster) who feels that the thread has other purposes, that just how I've interpretted it.

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

than y would people support something that the people who made the game said it ant true if they say its true then ill believe it if they dont then i ant now y keep going on

[McLovin']

Well here is a post by Squall of SeeD from FFShrine.

http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?t=25525

I believe it is a piece of Sir Bahamuts FAQ.

[Wilder]

Well here is a post by Squall of SeeD from FFShrine.

http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?t=25525

I believe it is a piece of Sir Bahamuts FAQ.

Some of those answers are just desperate responses, you just have to read it all to find out that the R-U theory is there, is not a stupid tought or an illusion we all created, now, the answers, you can clearly see that the autor is trying his best to say no to everything no matter what, rinoa warped - bad traduction , ultimecia castle ubication - Seeds corpses , FMV with rinoa ultimecia - there is nothing there to see is just ultimecia faces flashing over rinoa face , Ultimecia name ( in the european version translated drastically to Artemisa ) - that meaning is just in your mind, bring the real ultimecia and I´ll ask if that´s true.

my friends, the theory exist, it can not be proven true or false, but for those who try to erase it, come on !!, accept it, it exist.

finalfantasyguy4ever, There is no official Square response about the topic so stop your claiming

[Sir Bahamut]

How exactly are any of the responses "desperate"? Unless you demonstrate why, they still stand as perfectly valid counterarguments which demonstrate the flaws of the theory. If you're going to dismiss the whole thing without any sort of justification, YOU are the one sounding desperate.

Now, of course no one is denying that the theory "exists" (or else we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?), but it is wrong to say it cannot be proven right or wrong. The moment you begin a rational debate on this, you are agreeing to the premise that it is possible to judge the validity of a theory, and hence R=U can be demonstrated to be invalid.
If you do not accept that premise you shouldn't even be arguing here to begin with.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Y'know... Maybe Ultimecia is another lost fragment of Ihadurca? Or maybe their cousins.

Ihadurca is the primary antagonist of another game I was playing while drudging through FFVIII. So off and on I played FFT and "Evil Zone" otherwise more commonly known as "Eretzvaju".

Ihadurca is "The Absolute Existence"; she can exist in multiple dimensions at the same time. In the game we focus on Lea's incarnation in the world of I-Praseru. Her original name was Ihadurca Il Immella and was a court magician in a state of I-Praseru before Lea possesed her. She was sealed away by the inhabitants of I-Praseru. Recently she has been nearing escape from Evil Zone therefore the people of I-Praseru began to summon warriors from other dimensia to destroy her.

As we play through the story mode of Ihadurca's story, we discover that Ihadurca isn't necessarily 'evil' but more so feared by others. This eventually drives her, IMHO, not 'insane' but more just fed-up with all these 'heroes' coming to kill her only on the provocation of fear.

I see Ultimecia in the same sense that maybe it was the Sorceress Power that ultimately just did not want to end. I know all about the arguments of whether the Sorceress Power was sentient and I'd rather not get into that because it's talking about something we can never be sure of, much like most of FFVIII's questionable story.

I personally do not think that Ultimecia was 'evil' but simply driven mad despair. She apparently knew that she was the last line in the succession and that her death would not be 'peaceful'. This is why after murderous rampages of "SeEdS Must DiE!" she is remorseful in the end after failing to make "The Everlasting Moment" aka "Time Compression".

Be she Rinoa or no, I think she simply just didn't want to die... Just like Ihadurca...

Even her episode lists seem to me closely to Ultimecia...

* Episode 1: "Gorgeous Goddess" (vs Ihadulca)
* Episode 2: "Unique" (vs Erel)
* Episode 3: "That's Why I Am Alive" (vs Keiya)
* Episode 4: "The Corruption Of Esperanto" (vs Linedwell)
* Episode 5: "Pentration Mark Or The Second Original Sin" (vs Danzaiver)
* Episode 6: "Hiding The Feeling And Enduring The Pain" (vs Alty)
* Episode 7: "Why, Did I Say Why?" (vs Gally)
* Episode 8: "The Name Of Ihadurca Il Imella" (vs Midori)
* Episode 9: "Memory Is Like A Kaleidoscope" (vs Setsuna)
* Final Episode: "Do You Still Cherish The Memory Of That Day in Your Heart?" (vs Kakurine)

So there ya go, Ultimecia was another version of Ihadurca... No... Not at all... But it was something that crossed my mine when I was going through my old PS game box... (sigh) memories... Y'know I'm not serious about this, right? It was just a thought that crossed my mind...


Now there some things I wonder if Ultimecia actually made emotional bonds with the Sorceresses she possessed, like when Rinoa possessed Adel, she said that she "was" young Adel... That's another endless rant because we don't know what she experienced. Maybe Ultimecia fell in love with Squall via Rinoa. There's nothing to support this at all... but it's just a thought... And this leads me to another thought.

Why out of all the Sorceresses that follow Sorceress Rinoa does/ can she only possesses with Rinoa and Edea without the help of Ellone...

My guess is that she can possess Edea so readily because Sorceress Edea is ultimately whom she passes her power to... Which questions how did she possess Rinoa over time and space.

She only needed Ellone to find Sorceresses preceeding Sorceress Adel's reign but could take control of everyone with the Reign of Rinoa/Edea's time. This is going to turn into another bit of 'evidence' to support but don't bother. I just consider it something to wonder about and have fun with.

Another thing I find funny is how this story mirrors itself just like the White/Black Wings Motiff...

Sorceress Edea had a love of her life who could have been her knight, but she and he are seperated and she turns 'evil'. As speculated by most R=U supporters. But how could Rinoa turn evil if Squall is here Knight? Well I see it like this....

Sorceress Edea has a 'pseudo-Knight' in the form of Seifer "The Chaser of Hopeless Dreams"

Now even though Siefer is or is a former member of Balamb Garden, his fellow Balamb Gardern SeeDs attack him. I believe the same thing could happen to Squall and Rinoa because SeeDs kill Sorceresses which I think is just asinine. (Boy did I open myself up with that one).


But anyway, this again makes me think that Rinoa and Squall could be persecuted through generations whether she becomes Ultimecia or not or until she passes on her Sorceress Power.

Now, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to 'prove' anything but just saying what I think because apparently no matter I say it's just going to get sliced and diced for no reason other than something as petty as

"No. Seriously. You are not funny. It is in your best interests to stop attempting to be witty."

Or

"Congratulations, you've just won the idiot of the month award."

And on and on..

I was serious when I said I was trying out a new quote, it came to me when I visited the local arcade that day and people have come to expect me to say or do something to the effect of making them laugh. If I've done that, my job is done. I thought I'd try it out here to lower the tension and show I have a sense of humor as well. The insult was totally uncalled for. Whoever you are... he's another quote I've been tossing around and people like it so far... "You getta STFU".

That's just petty and makes it pointless for me to even say anything if all that's gonna happen is that I get insults like that.

I like and speak about the R=U theory because it requires imagination. I don't see anything wrong with thinking or believing it no more than not believing in it. People treat this like it's a sin to imagine something that could be... Or just to imagine at all. There is no supporting 'official' evidence for it or against it. I say let it go, because the ending much like most the story is just spawning more questions than answers.

Maybe I am Ultimecia... Don't bother... I was playing the violin myself before you even thought about it... LOL

And so...

MOMMY, PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS! DADDY'S HOME!!! (I tried that one today, it went well... Well recieved)

[G SpOtZ]

MOMMY, PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS! DADDY'S HOME!!! (I tried that one today, it went well... Well recieved)

I hope you realize that ^ sounded really sick and wrong, in various ways.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

MOMMY, PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS! DADDY'S HOME!!! (I tried that one today, it went well... Well recieved)

I hope you realize that ^ sounded really sick and wrong, in various ways.

That's kinda the point. It totally acknowledges that mommy and daddy still have an active life and why kids bedtimes are so closely linked to when daddy get's home. Hey, it wasn't the stork that brought ya home.

If you have any other comments on this, please restrict them to the PMs, okay Johnny? Thanks. Now back to our show...

[G SpOtZ]

MOMMY, PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS! DADDY'S HOME!!! (I tried that one today, it went well... Well recieved)

I hope you realize that ^ sounded really sick and wrong, in various ways.

That's kinda the point. It totally acknowledges that mommy and daddy still have an active life and why kids bedtimes are so closely linked to when daddy get's home. Hey, it wasn't the stork that brought ya home.

If you have any other comments on this, please restrict them to the PMs, okay Johnny? Thanks. Now back to our show...

I wasn't saying that the quote was sick, I was saying it was sick how you added that you "tried it."

And who the hell is Johnny? =P

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

MOMMY, PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE WHIPS AND CHAINS! DADDY'S HOME!!! (I tried that one today, it went well... Well recieved)

I hope you realize that ^ sounded really sick and wrong, in various ways.

That's kinda the point. It totally acknowledges that mommy and daddy still have an active life and why kids bedtimes are so closely linked to when daddy get's home. Hey, it wasn't the stork that brought ya home.

If you have any other comments on this, please restrict them to the PMs, okay Johnny? Thanks. Now back to our show...

I wasn't saying that the quote was sick, I was saying it was sick how you added that you "tried it."

And who the hell is Johnny? =P

What I meant was that I tried out the saying the quote. WTH did you think I meant? ... Y'know what I probably don't want to know but... Yeah. And I always randomly say things like "Johnny" and what not to people I don't know... Hell, I've even called someone "Cornflakes" and it stuck as a nickname with HIS FRIENDS... I can't apologize enough for poor Cornflakes... But again, use the PMs (Private Messages) Johnny.

Now cue that theme song from Short Circuit by El Debarge "Who's Johnny"...

[Ryushikaze]

-SNIP- long and rather off topic postulating about Ihadurca

Speaking as someone who loves that game, that was pointless, and will honestly not register with most of the people here.

I see Ultimecia in the same sense that maybe it was the Sorceress Power that ultimately just did not want to end. I know all about the arguments of whether the Sorceress Power was sentient and I'd rather not get into that because it's talking about something we can never be sure of, much like most of FFVIII's questionable story.

Most of the story is not questionable, though it has a few unanswered elements. Oh, and the Sorceresses power is self preserving. It forces the host to pass it along before the host goes kaput. A bening, once communicable virus.

I personally do not think that Ultimecia was 'evil' but simply driven mad despair. She apparently knew that she was the last line in the succession and that her death would not be 'peaceful'. This is why after murderous rampages of "SeEdS Must DiE!" she is remorseful in the end after failing to make "The Everlasting Moment" aka "Time Compression".

I think attempting to compress, consume, recast, and rule over all of existence is pretty damn evil, no matter WHAT led her to the state she's in.

Be she Rinoa or no, I think she simply just didn't want to die... Just like Ihadurca...

Of course she didn't want to die. That's why she compressed time. To gain control over destiny and existence along with it.

Even her episode lists seem to me closely to Ultimecia...

* Episode 1: "Gorgeous Goddess" (vs Ihadulca)
* Episode 2: "Unique" (vs Erel)
* Episode 3: "That's Why I Am Alive" (vs Keiya)
* Episode 4: "The Corruption Of Esperanto" (vs Linedwell)
* Episode 5: "Pentration Mark Or The Second Original Sin" (vs Danzaiver)
* Episode 6: "Hiding The Feeling And Enduring The Pain" (vs Alty)
* Episode 7: "Why, Did I Say Why?" (vs Gally)
* Episode 8: "The Name Of Ihadurca Il Imella" (vs Midori)
* Episode 9: "Memory Is Like A Kaleidoscope" (vs Setsuna)
* Final Episode: "Do You Still Cherish The Memory Of That Day in Your Heart?" (vs Kakurine)

Reminds me more of Squall, actually.

-SNIP-

Now there some things I wonder if Ultimecia actually made emotional bonds with the Sorceresses she possessed, like when Rinoa possessed Adel, she said that she "was" young Adel...

And Squall 'was' Laguna. I don't see the signifigance.

That's another endless rant because we don't know what she experienced. Maybe Ultimecia fell in love with Squall via Rinoa. There's nothing to support this at all... but it's just a thought... And this leads me to another thought.

And since there's nothing to support it, there's no reason to really give more than a passing fancy.

Why out of all the Sorceresses that follow Sorceress Rinoa does/ can she only possesses with Rinoa and Edea without the help of Ellone...

She possesses everyone without the help of Ellone. She uses JME to travel back into the past, but Ellone can only piggyback, so she must be doing it on her own willpower. Now Ellone was required to send Ulti's mind farther into the past to give her what she wanted, to, yadda yadda Laguna's plan goes here, but she had nada to do with Edea or Rinoa's possession.

My guess is that she can possess Edea so readily because Sorceress Edea is ultimately whom she passes her power to... Which questions how did she possess Rinoa over time and space.

Sheer force of will combined with the link of the sorceress power would be my guess.

Sorceress Edea had a love of her life who could have been her knight, but she and he are seperated and she turns 'evil'.

Upon being possessed by a megalomaniacal crazy lady from the future. I don't see how this is relevant. Also, why WOULDN'T you consider Cid to be Edea's knight? The only known job description seems to be keep them safe and sane, which he did well enough before mind control kicked in.

As speculated by most R=U supporters. But how could Rinoa turn evil if Squall is here Knight? Well I see it like this....

Sorceress Edea has a 'pseudo-Knight' in the form of Seifer "The Chaser of Hopeless Dreams" :p

Yet Edea as herself never met up with the adult Seifer. Ultidea was the one who kept interacting with him.

Now even though Siefer is or is a former member of Balamb Garden, his fellow Balamb Gardern SeeDs attack him.

Yes, Cuz he's a dick, allied himself against them, and generally did everything he could to make them miserable while serving Ulti.

I believe the same thing could happen to Squall and Rinoa because SeeDs kill Sorceresses which I think is just asinine. (Boy did I open myself up with that one).

Actually, their purpose is to combat. Not kill. Killing might be required, but combating does not just mean 'slaughter all the sorceresses, go go'.

But anyway, this again makes me think that Rinoa and Squall could be persecuted through generations whether she becomes Ultimecia or not or until she passes on her Sorceress Power.

Yes, but what aside from the idea that it might support R=U would lead you to believe that this is so?

Now, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to 'prove' anything but just saying what I think because apparently no matter I say it's just going to get sliced and diced for no reason other than something as petty as

"No. Seriously. You are not funny. It is in your best interests to stop attempting to be witty."

Funny how that line WAS NOT IN RESPONSE TO A DAMN ONE OF YOUR POINTS, which I have been addressing. You weren't funny. You were frankly being obnoxious.

If you're going to complain that I'm doing something, make sure I'm actually doing it before you shoot your mouth off.

Or

"Congratulations, you've just won the idiot of the month award."

Riiiiiiight. Besides, I know who's winning that award, and he don't go here.

I was serious when I said I was trying out a new quote, it came to me when I visited the local arcade that day and people have come to expect me to say or do something to the effect of making them laugh. If I've done that, my job is done. I thought I'd try it out here to lower the tension and show I have a sense of humor as well. The insult was totally uncalled for. Whoever you are... he's another quote I've been tossing around and people like it so far... "You getta STFU".

Blatant over the top stupid is not the way to lower tensions in this sort of situation.

That's just petty and makes it pointless for me to even say anything if all that's gonna happen is that I get insults like that.

If you avoid the irritating tangents, I will avoid calling them such.

I like and speak about the R=U theory because it requires imagination. I don't see anything wrong with thinking or believing it no more than not believing in it. People treat this like it's a sin to imagine something that could be... Or just to imagine at all.

It's not imagining it, it's about thinking that it's true. It's an idiotic and irrational belief and such things really ought to be fought against. ESPECIALLY when the believers are incredibly fervent about said belief.

There is no supporting 'official' evidence for it or against it.

Ultimania- Sorceresses have normal human life spans. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

I say let it go, because the ending much like most the story is just spawning more questions than answers.

Only because you fail to apply Okkam's razor and the suspension of disbelief.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

If it weren't for the threat of being banned I would call you a Biyatch right now, only because that's all you're doin' right now: B***ing! Oh wait, I guess I sorta did go there... Oh well... Excuse me Mods... I plead for a warning... Otherwise... Please consult with me in PM. Thank you.

All you're doin is slicing and dicing things that I say to make yourself look smart. You're not even including my full statements.

I already said that I wasn't serious about this and that this was just thoughts that crossed my mind and it wasn't anything to be put as 'proof'.

But you just took it that way and played the role of the 'holier than thou'.

Dude, it's just fantasy. There's no need to take it this far or any further because the only landmark we're gonna reach is nowhere and ultimately 'closed and banned'.

I'm trying my best to state my beliefs without being 'biased' as most are but that's just not good enough for you, is it? (shakes head in sadness).

For the love of Mike... You're really just gonna drag this down once again to this level to why these threads are closed aren't you? Well I won't be party to that. I'll just keep posting what I say and we'll see what happens, k? I could slice and dice your responses like you did mine but I don't see that worth my energy. You're really just being petty and that's it. I won't stoop to your level. Granted, there are little points to what you said, but most of it is just B.S. only because you don't see R=U as a possibility. I see it as a possibility but not an absolute, and that's what I've always stated. It's not definite but a possibility. But yet, you still attack me and mine like we're spouting 'hersey'.

Kinda like Ramza Beovolve.

MOMMY PUT THE KIDS TO BED AND BREAK OUT THE LEATHER MASKS! DADDY'S HOME!!!! SECRET WORD IS: WHAT?! (Blame that one on Family Guy!)

P.S. "Honey" let's not fight in front of the kids, cuz that seems to be all you're doin'... Let's go somewhere private, k? (PM).

[Christmas]

I still insist that Ultimecia is JENOVA.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

And you have every right to believe that Christmas. And I'm not just saying that simply because I'm a hella fan of Christmas and the hate the comes along with it... Okay, maybe I am... I LOVE YOU Christmas!