Explanation on the R=U theory?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

If she only compresses what's behind her, then there is still a future in which she dies. Compression only the past would be pointless if her goal is indeed to avoid her ultimate fate.

That's what I'm sayin'. She technically stopped the domino that would lead up to that moment, the Everlasting Moment. The took away all the dominos that would set the others to fall... In essence, the line stopped there.

But also in effect, I see your point, she was only speading up process I guess, ergo, the Succession of Witches being slaughtered by the Fated Children as I mentioned earlier. But her intentions were go no further than before her defeat and escape to Time Compression.

I guess Time Compression was a bad idea both by Ultimecia and the writers lol.

[Sir Bahamut]

PAK:

Firstly, in FF8 the future DOES exist. As Lilliputian Hitcher pointed out, Ultimecia lies in Squall and Co's future, yet they carry on as if they're in the present. This in itself implies that since the past and future coexist, the notion of a present becomes entirely relative. Although this does not prove that all of the future exists, something else does:

Ellone states that you cannot change the past. Logically speaking this is only possible if all future timetravelling events already exist and are set in stone, and hence we can conclude that ALL the future exists just as much as the past. Hence compression of all of time is possible. For a more detailed explanation of this argument, please refer to the FAQ.

Now secondly, as Lilliputian Hitcher also says, your assertion that compressing the future would cause Ultimecias death is entirely baseless, and can instantly be refuted by the observation that the event in which Ultimecia dies happens in the past you say Ultimecia compresses (remember Ultimecia dies in the orphanage when Squall is but a young boy). But besides that, there really isn't any reason as to why compression of the future should not be possible.

More than likely those 'fated' still standing dominoes will disappear.

This doesn't make much sense either. The compressed events do not dissapear. Once TC is over they all go back to where they belong, so to speak.

Y'know what I think about that shattering helmet and 'faceless Squall'? I think Squall died when Edea killed him. That's why he cried at the end.

Who said zombies don't have feelings?!

what I tried to say with the laguna example is the possibility that something that we all know confirmed in the same game, like the fact that laguna is squall´s father, would have been not confirmed in text but everything else remains the same, or maybe created to cause this confussion as a part of the way the story is told. In that case, Threads with the title " Laguna is squall´s father " and the theories to prove it true or false would exist.

And? Threads like that DO exist today, and it can easily be demonstrated that Laguna is Squall's father beyond any shadow of a doubt, by merely listing all the unambigously strong hints and applying a bit of simple reasoning.

R=U is different. It hasn't been confirmed, but it doesn't have lots of unambiguous, strong hints to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and simple reasoning suggests that it can't even be possible to begin with.

But, R-U Case is a different one, because, what would happen if square hipotetically says that Rinoa is ultimecia officially ? that would mean that all the points in the theory are really hints to take the player to this conclusion. I said hipotetically because I doubt that official statement will exist to prove it false or true, this discussion is good for the sales.

I don't see your point. Sure, if Square announced that R=U, then yes, all those "hints" would be valid. But Square has done no such thing, and never will, so what's your point?

Nobody can make a statement about the absolute meaning of the last FMV, and in some of those guides I´ve read something like that.

"Asbolute meanings" are entirely uninteresting to discuss. Technically speaking, anything could be true. Irvine could be Ultimecia. Selphie may be the first born of a Moomba and a Chocobo. We can only discuss in any meaningful manner reasonable and plausible truths; we can weigh up all points and arguments for a certain theory and conclude which is more plausible and reasonable.

The quote from ultimania is a strong counterpoint, A Sorceress' lifespan is the same as a normal human's, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress. but I keep asking , what happen if the witch dont pass her power ?, And I know what you are thinking, she must run and give her powers to somebody obligatory, but what happens in ultimecia universe where is nobody else to pass the torch. (there comes the time travel theories)

What happens in Ultimecia's universe is irrelevant, because in it, she would be immortal anyway. Any sorceress who dies in FF8 has to give up her powers stat. Simple as that.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Sir Bahamut:Firstly, in FF8 the future DOES exist. As Lilliputian Hitcher pointed out, Ultimecia lies in Squall and Co's future, yet they carry on as if they're in the present. This in itself implies that since the past and future coexist, the notion of a present becomes entirely relative. Although this does not prove that all of the future exists, something else does:

Ellone states that you cannot change the past. Logically speaking this is only possible if all future timetravelling events already exist and are set in stone, and hence we can conclude that ALL the future exists just as much as the past. Hence compression of all of time is possible. For a more detailed explanation of this argument, please refer to the FAQ.

Now secondly, as Lilliputian Hitcher also says, your assertion that compressing the future would cause Ultimecias death is entirely baseless, and can instantly be refuted by the observation that the event in which Ultimecia dies happens in the past you say Ultimecia compresses (remember Ultimecia dies in the orphanage when Squall is but a young boy). But besides that, there really isn't any reason as to why compression of the future should not be possible.

I see what you're saying but I tried to explain that there is future, it's just that Ultimecia can reach it. My understanding of time is that the past exists and is foundation for the present; the present instantly and constantly becomes the past ever second thus giving us a path to travel... The future we can't jump ahead to because the path has been shown.

I know I'm getting confusing.

What I'm saying is that we can't skip over the sequence of falling dominios but we can go backwards. This why Ultimecia is only drawing from the past. Well, that and she is the last in line. There are no moments in the future she would want except the events that lead to her death. She's trying to take away the events of the past leading to the present just before the inevitable happens. If the dominoes that set those events are gone then the dominoes will not fall and the dreaded event will not happen. (Good greif, I'm getting lost in my own analogy. At least I didn't use "Tetris" as the analogy this time... ) LOL. Basically she can't or wouldn't pull from 'Her' future. There's no Sorceress Power or events she wants Time Compression.

The only reason the Fated Children were 'jumped' into the future was because they were pulled there. And it was a moment in the future/present of Ultimecia that was supposed to happen. Time travel's funny that way.

Kinda like those time travel episode on "Gargoyles: The Animated Series".

"I should leave you here, if were not for the havoc I fear you would wreak on the timestream".

"But you won't, because you didn't. Time travel's funny that way."

Goliath and Xanatos.

And I guess zombies can love, I never said they couldn't. LOL

[Sir Bahamut]

What I'm saying is that we can't skip over the sequence of falling dominios but we can go backwards.

And what exactly do you base this assumption on?

There are no moments in the future she would want except the events that lead to her death. She's trying to take away the events of the past leading to the present just before the inevitable happens.

True, but she's ALSO trying to become a God by compressing absorbing ALL of time and space. Ultimecia is clearly hungry for power as well as fearful of her own fate, and why would she settle with merely avoiding her fate if she could, by compressing the future too become the supreme ruler of all of time and space? Note also the scanning Ultimecia's final form states that she is "absorbing all of time and space", further backing this up.

The only reason the Fated Children were 'jumped' into the future was because they were pulled there.

That's hardly a satisfactory explanation. They didn't get pulled anywhere, they used their willpower to travel to the future through time compression. Odine and Laguna makes this quite explicit.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

You left this part out in your last post...

Most likely, these dominoes will disappear.

But because she was unsuccessful we will never know what would happen to those dominoes. Their missing that kinetic event that would set them in motion or even be there...

Add-on: That's a damn good example of pardoxes TC would have created... There's a line of events that are set to occur, but now that the sequence is broken, will they occur? But, of course TC was futile. Bad idea. Really no threat at all when you think about it.

What I'm saying is that we can't skip over the sequence of falling dominios but we can go backwards.

And what exactly do you base this assumption on?

Space-Time. Travel any amount of space given time. Also the order of events will only happen as they are supposed to. It's difficult to explain, but this is how I see time works.

There are no moments in the future she would want except the events that lead to her death. She's trying to take away the events of the past leading to the present just before the inevitable happens.

True, but she's ALSO trying to become a God by compressing absorbing ALL of time and space. Ultimecia is clearly hungry for power as well as fearful of her own fate, and why would she settle with merely avoiding her fate if she could, by compressing the future too become the supreme ruler of all of time and space? Note also the scanning Ultimecia's final form states that she is "absorbing all of time and space", further backing this up.

This one of the things that I just try to avoid taking too literally. I don't see what good it would do her to do so. After the info on What Is SeeD kept changing I was just like 'whatever' louse piece of scanning equipment, I should refine you to something useful!!! (sorry, traumatic flashback).

The only reason the Fated Children were 'jumped' into the future was because they were pulled there.

That's hardly a satisfactory explanation. They didn't get pulled anywhere, they used their willpower to travel to the future through time compression. Odine and Laguna makes this quite explicit.

You're right, it hardly is... All I can say is that Ultimecia pulled them through with Rinoa and that it was a 'Fated' set order of events. And again, I say, Odine is questionable in his boasts. And Laguna... Well.... He's like G.W. Bush. You just wonder how the helled-horrors did they elect you? And the "Love and Friendship"... I'm sorry, for that just really pushin' the envelope for the 'theme' of this game bringing back to the poor execution... ugh... :rolleyes2 LOL.

I ask yourself, would you take anything these guys say seriously? It's no wonder Squall got lost in TC... I wasn't buying... I know, I know 'it's the game' but... ugh...:rolleyes2 LOL.

[Sir Bahamut]

Uhh, you need to edit your post in terms of quotes and such =P Anyway:

You left this part out in your last post...

Most likely, these dominoes will disappear.

But because she was unsuccessful we will never know what would happen to those dominoes. Their missing that kinetic event that would set them in motion or even be there...

Add-on: That's a damn good example of pardoxes TC would have created... There's a line of events that are set to occur, but now that the sequence is broken, will they occur? But, of course TC was futile. Bad idea. Really no threat at all when you think about it.

TC does not permanently break any sequence of events. As soon as TC is broken everything resumes to normal, and so all sequences continue to carry out. Of course, since TC can be viewn as merely another fated event in FF8's line of time, this is even more apparent. Again, the FAQ explains this in more detail.

Space-Time. Travel any amount of space given time. Also the order of events will only happen as they are supposed to. It's difficult to explain, but this is how I see time works.

That was entirely impossible to understand I'm afraid. It may be how you view time, but unless you actually offer a more comprehensible explanation as to why you believe it, it can't really be considered relevant.

This one of the things that I just try to avoid taking too literally. I don't see what good it would do her to do so.

Um, she gets to become God, with absolute control of time and space so she can recreate the universe as she sees fit. How's that for "good it would do her"?

You're right, it hardly is... All I can say is that Ultimecia pulled them through with Rinoa and that it was a 'Fated' set order of events. And again, I say, Odine is questionable in his boasts. And Laguna... Well.... He's like G.W. Bush. You just wonder how the helled-horrors did they elect you? And the "Love and Friendship"... I'm sorry, for that just really pushin' the envelope for the 'theme' of this game bringing back to the poor execution... ugh... LOL.

You're using circular logic. Your initial argument for why Odine is questionable is because Ultimecia cannot compress the future, so you can't use Odine's questionability to show that the future cannot be compressed!

As for "Love and Friendship", I agree; it's incredibly corny. But it's there in the game none the less, and so it must be taken into account. But anyway, your take on the mechanics of timetravelling are clearly inferior at this point, since you readily admitted that you don't actually have a satisfactory explanation.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I just don't see it making sense. When I was speaking about the the events that wouldn't happen I was speaking as if TC did occur. Now that she's compressed away all the events leading up to it, would time go back to normal? How is that if the set events of the future of Ultimecia defeat is missing the key sequence of events that would lead up to that moment are gone? I guess we would have figured out what she said after 'and...' But that didn't happen and I'm not gonna loose sleep over it.

Now this is one of those moments that we'll go into a round about view because of the 'it's in the game/not in the game statements'.

We wouldn't even know of the term "Fated Children" if someone hadn't posted a translation of the opening theme song. The term 'Fated Children' was as 'in the game' as most would refer to it as.

Like Time Compression is something that's in the game but not explained clearly... I believe it is an "Everlasting Moment" to best describe a series of 'events' in 'time' 'compressed' into one. This is something that requires something other than 'in-game' to me. I believe this is one of the reseaons aside from the R=U, Time Compression threads get so heated as well... Anyway...

To describe my ideas of the mechanics of time would take forever and honestly it's like 4:15am here... In a nutshell, I believe it is possible to travel backwards in time, but normally not forward beyond actual present. And if possible to travel to the 'future' if it is 'allowed' or an event that is set to happen. Self-contradicting I know, but again, it'll take too long. I'm not coping out. It's the basis of the equation I wrote earlier.

G'night...

P.S. I can't seem to get the quote thingie right so I apologize for not responding in kind properly.

[PhoenixAsh]

I'd like to contribute, but I've been avoiding reading most of the more recent posts. Can people PLEASE tag spoilers for other FFs (FFX and X-2 I saw in here) and make it clear that they're spoilers for other games.

[Lilliputian Hitcher]

No, since there is apparently a rule on this forum that states that you don't have to.

EDIT: Funnily enough, there also seems to be a rule against making R=U threads and talking about Pharoh Amon Khan. Whoops.

[Sir Bahamut]

Hahaha, and yet this thread has been open for 100+ posts, eh, as well as several other R=U topics. Oh well.

[Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer]

Well i guess they haven´t checked this thread yet...let´s all just be proud for taking a part in the last R=U discussion thread on this forum!

Ahhh then again i´m sure some new guy will create another thread about this sooner or later:rolleyes2

[Wilder]

Hi, I´m new, A friend of mine told me that Rinoa is ultimecia in the future, is that true ?, thanks ( this person never go back again to the forum and never bother to read the 10000 post he caused ).

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

No, since there is apparently a rule on this forum that states that you don't have to.

EDIT: Funnily enough, there also seems to be a rule against making R=U threads and talking about Pharoh Amon Khan. Whoops.

I wrote this spit a long time ago, a really long time ago! ROFL!!! I LOVE that song!!! Pretty much explains why I'm posting and what Lilliputian Hitcher said...

I'm not a 'bad guy' I'm just a famous 'bad boy'...


Also, I gotta note, that just as I laid my head down to rest...

I realized I can't really lay down my beliefs on the mechanics of time on this game based on fantasy. And this just makes me think... who else other than the writers? I mean, really... I see it as the writers just used time travel and Time Compression as a (I don't know how to spell it properly (yeah I know it's the internet, but I'm lazy! Shove IT! LOL) Megafuffin Device.
"Hey, we don't HAVE understand time travel, but just use it as something that everyone just goes along with. Let's get on with the story"

My point is that I apologize that my views or anyone's views or 'facts' of the mechanics of time more than likely don't apply simply by the fact of this is fantasy and this was a story with one intended ending mapped out possibly without any facts or scientific intensions included other to be to exact other than what was the end result of the stories ending by the writers/creatorsOr not (scientific intensions)... which is inconclusive...

Just like "Time Compression" I've realized, this is futile... A major effort for entertainment or bending the law without breaking it, but ultimately futile... (and fun).

R=U is the result of an inconclusive story and will continue to be so... Just like the 'bible' that 'claims' to counter-act it.

I had more to say, but I editied it out for personal reasons....

I really do not understand why the R=U has caused such debate seeing that this is just mere fantasy to the result of there is an FAQ about it for the simple fact to bring about 'facts' to refute it; (and with respect Sir Bahamut you do not refute totally but offer perspectives on both sides to the best of your ability but at the same time it does seem to be biased against the possibility.)

Personally, see the possibilty as plausiable despite and equally the 'facts' that others 'find' to 'refute' as those to 'support' and therefore the futility as 'Time Compression' and the 'Fated Loop'...

Surely there is means of ameleration....

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, I certainly agree with you that it's impossible to make full sense of TC, because Square obviously only put it in as a plot-advancing device without any specific thoughts on its inner mechanisms. That isn't to say discussion on the matter is entirely fruitless; certain enlightening conclusions can be made on general aspects of it, it's just that if one attempts to create a full consistent theory, one invariably runs into problems regardlessly of what approach you take.

Time travelling, on the other hand, is a phenomenon I believe can be broken down and understood fairly well. The FAQ goes in detail into two differing, consistent theories on time in FF8 which can explain what we see in the game based on a minimum amount of assumptions. Now, although only the writers can specify exactly what notion of time they had in mind when making the game, one can still make plausible, logical and internally consistent theories on the matter. Of course, it isn't to be assumed that the game contains no contradictions in terms of issues on time (barring TC), but fortunately this IS the case with FF8.

As for R=U, although this is a fantasy game, many people wish to logically debate the matter in order to determine what theories work and not, and also to try and find out exactly what the authors intended. Such is the nature of the FAQ too; it approached R=U purely on the premise that the authors had a purpose with the game, and that this purpose can be determined through logical analysis of the game. Based on that premise, the theory does not hold up, yet many supporters consistently disagree with this because they think the theory is cool or whatever, thus spawning the endless discussions.

Amelioration is possible and present in many places. If R=U supporters agree that the theory was not intended by Square and is not supported strongly enough by ingame hints to make it nearly as conclusive as say Laguna being Squall's dad, then that's cool. But anything else would not be the truth as far as I'm concerned.

[DfKimera]

You’re still making assertions that aren’t supported by the game. If the future hadn’t been written yet, then their wouldn’t be a sorceress from the future trying to compress time. I think that’s a pretty clear indication that there is something in the future to ‘grab onto’.

I guess the words paralell universes and karma solves this up.