Explanation on the R=U theory?

[PhoenixAsh]

Why? What purpose could this serve, and how could it better justify the attention that Griever recieves throughout the game than R=U?

It's really simple you know. If you wanted to summon something to pit against your enemy, what would you summon? Well, you'll probably agree that pitting your enemy against the one thing he considers invincible might be a good idea, because it gives you a strong psychological advantage, no? Well, Griever is what Squall considers to be the strongest creature ever, so it is perfectly logical that when she scans his mind, she decides to summon exactly Griever.

There's no arguing about this really. Just look at what she says in the japanese version:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

It says flat out that she intends to pit Squall against what he considers to be the strongest thing ever to "torment [Squall]". The game offers this excellent and highly logical explanation without any need for "R=U" assumptions.

Griever doesn't get THAT much attention really. He is supposed to symbolise the values Squall admire, and fighting Griever is thus a symbolically potent battle. But there's nothing more to Griever than that; he's hardly payed as much attention as you seem to imply.

You put your argument well... though I have to say I've become less impressed by the Japanese text this time around. I remember it being more conclusive that Griever was summoned from Squall. In the quotations you posted, it seems at least fairly ambiguous what she is actually referring to. It also wasn't important enough to be retained in the translation.

I still just don't see Griever as Squall's greatest fear. From what I remember, its just a lion (not a GF) according to Squall, and in no way does he seem scared of it. Plus, why is only Griever summoned? Not to mention that this is Squall, leader of SeeD, and unlikely to be scared by a monster. Solitude maybe, but a monster... no.

It just seems a really bad idea for a final boss.
Creator: "Hey look its Griever! Ooooooh"
Player: "Who?"
Creator: "You know from Squall's ring?"
Player: " The... the lion thing? Did it even have a name?"
Creator: "Yeah remember you named it two discs ago, we didn't mention the name since, just assumed you'd remember it. Anyway, as you know Squall said he was intimidated by it."
Player: "No he didn't."
Creator: "Well its big and scary."
Player: "And in no way resembles anything Squall described..."
Creator: "Well he was quiet back then, pay attention to the story!"
Player: "Uh....huh."

My point was that there are elements of the game that can be thought into, and my example was one generally agreed upon as being worthwhile and conclusive.

Definitely. Ultimecia's background and motives are very worthwhile to look into, but the game itself (backed by the Ultimania) offers a perfectly good explanation if you look closely enough, and logical arguments can easily demonstrate that although R=U may be a neat idea, it simply doesn't hold up. It's that simple.

Apart from Ultimania, I have yet to see anything which convinces me R=U is even close to impossible or even very unlikely. You can infer how a random individual could have become Ultimecia, but that seems a lot less interesting, and far less involved in the 'fate' theme running through the story.

My point was simply that stories involving time-travel frequently involve such occurences, and that the apparent oddness of R=U is lessened by this fact.

No, I'm afraid it isn't, for two reasons.

1) Your implication here requires timetravelling to the future, which is something we never see outside of TC. In other words, there's nothing in the game suggesting that after TC is finished, Rinoa would have any way of travelling to the future in order to become Ultimecia.

2) It isn't implied that Rinoa will go to the future at any point.

The fact that timetravelling occurs in FF8 doesn't in any way make the theory plausible. One could argue that it makes it "possible", but then anything is "possible" if you think hard enough.

EDIT: By the way, there is not a single "plothole" in FF8 that R=U 'answers' which does not already have a much simpler and more reasonable answer offered by the game itself.

I have never suggested Rinoa travelling to the future, all R=U theories I know of work around her surviving to the future (hence the problem posed by Ultimania). The time travel I was referring to was in fact TC. Squall and co. go to 'the future' and meet someone, storywise it isn't that strange that they should have met them (or a relation) before.



Sephiroth's Cage I apologise if I came across as attacking you. I know you were not advocating those ideas (not that I'd have attacked you either way ), I merely wanted to explain why I disagreed with them.


licence: The theory derives from filling plot-holes, and following hints. Plot holes include where Griever came from, who Ultimecia is, and why she doesn't have a knight. I believe there are others, though I have forgotten them. Hints include several lines of dialogue which heavily imply R=U, the fate theme, again Griever, the position of the castle (never was a huge fan of that argument myself), the feathers scene, claims of Rinoa and Ultimecia's similar appearances... Again I'm fairly certain there are a lot more.