Explanation on the R=U theory?

[PhoenixAsh]

This could be argued back and forth I suppose, but in the end, Ultimecia says she will summon something from Squall, and she then summons Griever. It would be absurd to think that her threat of summoning "the most powerful of things" from Squall is in fact entirely unrelated to her summoning of Griever straight afterwards, when you consider that Squall has previously said that Griever is known for his "great strength". That would make no sense at all:

Ultimecia: "Hey Squall, I will now summon something very powerful from you and have you face it in battle.

*summons Griever*

Squall: "Oh noes, you summoned the creature I consider to be very powerful and strong! Your threat was not empty!"

Ultimecia: "Foolish SeeD, Griever came from somewhere entirely different lolz"

I just don't see it happening =P Merely calling it an "idle threat" still goes entirely against the fact that she summons Griever straight afterwards, and the loneliness Squall faces is due to TC and not Ultimecia, who iactually dies before Squall goes to that desert place. There simply MUST be a direct correlation between her threat and Griever. Her threat is like a gun, and Griever a bullet. The logical suggestion is that she actually fired the gun, but you are suggesting an entirely different gun was used.

I see your point, and if we allow that the timing and translation are as strong as you suggest (again something I'll check later, but if you know, does she literally say it before the Griever fight, as in after you defeat her first form?), then very compelling. However I would suggest the analogy is slightly weaker than you suggest even in this case. It seems more akin to Ultimecia saying she will shoot Squall, aiming a gun at him, then a knife hitting Squall from the direction of the gun.
I admit I don't have a better explanation, and the isolation after the fight, though it fits better IMHO, does require quite a stretch, but the 'obvious' interpretation does have quite a gaping hole in it regarding the word 'feel', and given it was a final boss, you'd think that explanation should carry through a translation.

As established in my last post, Squall thinks of Griever as a very strong creature, quite possibly the strongest creature of his daydreams/imagination. He says as much in the game. You agree then that it would be highly reasonable that Ultimecia would set Squall up against that thing he considers so strong. It makes perfect sense from a tactical perspective, which is how Ultimecia would be thinking. Why Squall considers Griever so strong isn't up for debate, since he says it himself (see the quote in my last post). As for how Griever looks, well, Ultimecia probably embellished him to make him look even more intimidating.

Well... I'm torn here. There are times when I agree with you, and times when it still just seems completely daft. I know Squall says lions are strong, and given the (Japanese) text, it kinda fits... But still, if you iignore that text and just consider the actual situation... Is Squall likely to be intimidated by a figment of his imagination (or any monster for that matter)? Is there any real indication that Squall ever imagined Griever to be anything other than a lion, and even then, as something scary? Why would Ultimecia only summon Squall's worst fear, and how could she junction herself to it (something vague regarding Tiamat is flashing in my head as a counter to that second part, but I'll leave it for now..) Does the slight mention of Griever two discs prior really justify its position as 'what Squall considers strongest'? Even if it did then, would it still by Disc 4?... I'm sure this list goes on, and I know the text adds weight (arguably) to your version, but without it, it just doesn't really seem to stand up that well.

Not odd, sure, but not suggested to happen either.

Oh no, not at all. The TC/story stuff was merely to show that R=U shouldn't be dismissed as too outlandish, because in this type of story it isn't.

There is a symbolic explanation for the wings much simpler than R=U which is really much more plausible. You see, Ultimecia and Rinoa ARE connected in the sense that they both have the same set of powers (remember, this is without the initial assumption that R=U, in which case the game itself says that Ultimecia will inherit Rinoas powers eventually). However, the game shows the two possible outcomes of a sorceress with these powers. Ultimecia represents the outcome where the sorceress turns to evil. Rinoa represents the outcome where the sorceress stays good. This is seminal to Rinoa's developement when she becomes a sorceress; she recognises that she might well go down the same path as Ultimecia. However, in the end her knight Squall is able to save her.

Now where do the wings come in? Well, Rinoa and Ultimecia are symbollically connected through the wings, and since we have already establishes that Ultimecia is the evil sorceress and Rinoa is the good one, Ultimecia gets black wings and Rinoa white wings. It's merely classic good vs evil symbolism where black is bad and white is good.

This interpretation is highly intuitive, implied by the game and far more reasonable (in the sense that it's something Square tend to use in their games). Saying that the wings imply that Rinoa and Ultimecia are in fact the same person is simply taking a far too large leap. The symbolism is there, but it hardly extends as far as to suggest R=U.

Yeah you win that ... The feathers take on another layer meaning if R=U is true, but other than that you pretty much killed them as any kind of supportive tool .
Actually it just occurred to me... Does Adel have wings? I'm pretty sure Edea doesn't. If only Rinoa and Ultimecia have them, then whilst this is by no means conclusive, and you're right the symbolism of light versus dark still applies, then that fact does at least tenuously indicate a stronger relationship between Rinoa and Ultimecia than that they are both sorceresses.

So many long arguments...

I was just wondering again...if Rinoa was Ultimecia how did she got wings? Because we see Rinoa with wings when she performs her limit break but those are spiritual wings while Ultimecia wings seem pretty real.

Just evolution really. Rinoa can fly(ish) with those wings, so they have at least some physical potential. Plus Ultimecia has clearly physically changed due to her powers (unless future people are very scary looking ), so presumably if R=U, then Rinoa simply developed more physical wings along with all her other changes.