explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

[Sir Bahamut]

I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else.

Of course I remember that. And don't twist your own words. You said, and I quote, that "There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted". Clearly the quote I provided (spoken by Ultimecia through Edea) proves that sorceresses had been persecuted for generations.

As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider...

It may be interesting to consider, but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Clearly Rinoa isn't the only person alive in the world of FF8, and so we can assume that she'd find a successor eventually. Even if you assume she somehow doesn't, then the Ultimecia we see should spontanously give up her powers to one of the main party members when you face her in her room (not to mention that she should be twisted with pain).

As for not speaking with Ryu, you can do as you please. I won't reiterate the points Ryu made though, and you can't really make a case without answering them too.

[licence]

I would quote the "die in peace part" said by PAK so people would know what I'm referring to but it is quite a lot of stuff to read through.

Anyways...just because it says a soceress can't die in peace, doesn't mean she cannot die. Dying in peace may refer to a number of things. It may mean that even though she is dead, she can't truly rest or move onto any possible afterlife. Like the Unknown King, whose passage wasn't allowed because of some reason (if anyone can actaully correct me on that part, I'm a little sketchy on it but I can remeber seeing a ghost of some type). Just because she isn't allowed to die peacefully, doesn't mean she can't die but have to stay in this world.

[finalfantasyguy4ever]

he was thinking crazy stuff that didnt happen. being worn out can play tricks on ur mind. he fights adel, goes to tc, and fight sorceruss, come to ultis caslte, and fights her gaurds ,and the fight ulti. i would be worn out if i could complete lionheart one time. he was juist worn out and his mine was playing tricks on him and he felt alone

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I think you should take a leaf from your own book.... I hope you remember that that was Ultimecia speaking through a possessed Sorceress Edea. So it was Ultimecia that spoke of persecution throughout generations, no one else.

Of course I remember that. And don't twist your own words. You said, and I quote, that "There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted". Clearly the quote I provided (spoken by Ultimecia through Edea) proves that sorceresses had been persecuted for generations.

Sorry, didn't mean to do a spin-out and barely miss a crash and burn. That was a mistake on my part. post you quoted was what I meant, but I did not word it properly. But the point remains that Ultimecia is the only one speaking of being persecuted for generations. Is the persecution that Rinoa experienced or the successor? It could be either/or.

As you said, A Sorceress can not die in peace without passing on her power... If there's no one around what happens until she can find a host? I would hate for the poor thing to suffer but... Whadda ya gonna do? I don't really go with that idea but it's something to consider...

It may be interesting to consider, but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Clearly Rinoa isn't the only person alive in the world of FF8, and so we can assume that she'd find a successor eventually. Even if you assume she somehow doesn't, then the Ultimecia we see should spontanously give up her powers to one of the main party members when you face her in her room (not to mention that she should be twisted with pain).

Assume you may, but isn't that the problem? Choice, the problem is choice, but so is the answer. Either you choose to believe that Rinoa will find a successor because you want to believe the Happy Ending, or you keep in mind that she may not.

I trust you understand that we've reached the point of neutrality that I've been speaking of all long. The future is probability. This is what I meant about Ultimecia unable to compress the future, only present and past.

Odine, whom I find to boastful in his statement about the future, is constantly used as 'truth', but it was Odine himself, who is older than most of the characters says that he built the machine for Ultimecia, almost in the context that it was in his life time and under Ultimecia's orders...

You see how we're at the conflict of perspectives? You can I either choose to see it one way or the other. I choose to look at both aspects of a possiblity but not certainty, though certainty murders possiblity, we have no certainty here. Like I said, I had questions at the end, and these are possible answers as is E=MC2.

Aside from remaining cosmetically beautiful, Ultimecia doesn't seem to be the perfect picture of health. If I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong) she was struggling more than stuttering words, and she looked kinda of 'shakey' when she stands. Ah, coulda beent the weight of the horns on her head...

As for not speaking with Ryu, you can do as you please. I won't reiterate the points Ryu made though, and you can't really make a case without answering them too.

As for Ryu, he's not making any points from my point of view, he's just criping and doing anything he can to make a childish retort to anything he doesn't want to be a possibility at the very least. Not even the idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is his problem. Clearly, he doesn't understand anything I say.

And also, there's no way I'm going to respond to a (new net-slang term coming up kids!) "Quote Qwazy" post like that. That's just crazy, self-indulgent and delusional because he obviously has too much time on your hands. And as I said, he didn't understand anything I said. I have nothing to say to Ryu...

[Ryushikaze]

As for Ryu, he's not making any points from my point of view, he's just criping and doing anything he can to make a childish retort to anything he doesn't want to be a possibility at the very least. Not even the idea of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is his problem. Clearly, he doesn't understand anything I say.

Y'know, for someone who gets cheesed off when I come anywhere close to insulting you, you certainly aren't taking pains to be civil.

And also, there's no way I'm going to respond to a (new net-slang term coming up kids!) "Quote Qwazy" post like that. That's just crazy, self-indulgent and delusional because he obviously has too much time on your hands. And as I said, he didn't understand anything I said. I have nothing to say to Ryu...

Yes... It's my point by point posting method, and NOT the points therein that you don't want to deal with. RIIIIIIIGHT. Y'know, only one other person that I can remember used my posting methodology as an excuse to beg out of an argument with me. Joining that group does not reflect favorably on you, Khan.
And for the record, Ad Hominem.
Also for the record, Concession Accepted. Good day.

Addendum: Heck, I'll deal with some of this anyways...

Odine, whom I find to boastful in his statement about the future, is constantly used as 'truth', but it was Odine himself, who is older than most of the characters says that he built the machine for Ultimecia, almost in the context that it was in his life time and under Ultimecia's orders...

No. He doesn't. And if you want to claim he does, provide evidence.

Aside from remaining cosmetically beautiful, Ultimecia doesn't seem to be the perfect picture of health. If I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong) she was struggling more than stuttering words, and she looked kinda of 'shakey' when she stands. Ah, coulda beent the weight of the horns on her head...

Yes. You are incorrect. You've been incorrect on a LOT of things having to do with FF8, sometimes despite being corrected.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Doc Odine
"Eghhhhhh!"
"I kept this a secret to surprise you...It iz because of me, Odine!"
"I researched Ellone's power long ago."
"I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's
brain."
"Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize."
"It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an
impressive working machine!"
"Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power."
"It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine."
"I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'!"
"It iz a wonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!"

Squall
"Junction Machine Ellone."

Laguna
"That's about it."

Squall
"So Sorceress Ultimecia came to know about Ellone, from that machine.'

Laguna
"And Elle became Ultimecia's target."
"You can't blame Odine. It's useless."

Doc Odine
"You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!?"
"Ok, we continue the story!"

<<No>>

Doc Odine
"Zat is too bad."

<<END CHOICE>>

My assumption of why Odine made the machine was wrong. I didn't remember exactly until just now I went to Icybrian and found the script. So, I'm knocking off my statement of Odine. I misinterpretated him. And I'm challeneging myself to say "but" it could be that some other scientists continued based upon his notes to evolve the JME. But that just bring us back to the unknown future or perspective. Basically, it's as irrelevant as assuming that Rinoa 'obviously' has a successor or not.

Let's continue, shall we?

[sephirothishere]

hey...whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa.....this is kinda gettin outta hand...every thread i go into its like ryu khan ryu khan ryu khan....rkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkr.,......i dont even bother readin the posts anymore.....agree to disagree.....no wait...i dont mean that....yeh so anyway this is some weak ass [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] no get with it....dudes relax....you are jus messin with each others heads....

[Sir Bahamut]

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

To Sephirothishere:
Relax... That's all over with now. And lighten the mood, some inspired music sung to the tune of "Mighty Mouse Is Here"

"Here he comes, get out the way... My god, it's Sephiroth is on his way!

With the masamune he will fillet... And burn the town of the vitcims he slayed.

Herald of the doomsday... For Sephiroth Is Here.... Todaaaaaaay.."

I probably could have done better or worse, but y'know... I'm no Lionel Richie.

Everyone else: Who?

Nevermind. Hope I didn't offend you Sephirothishere, I just saw your name and well... You see the results of my mind...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

I don't see this a 'worthless'. Such a harsh word. But as I said, the end is the beginning of this entire discussion and it leaves us with "The Future is Probablity". I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?


R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.[/QUOTE]


There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Despite how ugly the truth or probability of truth may seem it can still be the truth we don't want to picture.

Have we reached the point of neutrality where we can all at long last agree to disagree?

The only problem left here is that there is no definite yes or no because the uncertainty of future probability, and only those who say there is definitely a 'no' but definitely not a 'yes' or 'maybe'...

[jammi567]

Well, after reading all that bickering, i agree with you PAK, that it's best to agree to disagree. Because, in the end, we're never going to get a definate answer, certainly not 7 years after the game was released.

[Sir Bahamut]

I don't see this as 'worthless'. Such a harsh word.

It IS worthless though. If no one is wrong, no one is right, and the basis for a rational debate is destroyed. The point about rational debate is that we are supposed to rationally weigh up each point and asses the validity of any given theory. But if we do not assume that it is possible to asses the validity of a theory (which is what you suggest) this is impossible. Hence it renders this whole debate worthless. There's no way around it.

I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?

You must have misread me. I never stated anything about "parsimonious vs rational". It is NOT rational to state that it's a fact that Rinoa has no successor, because the game itself indicates otherwise in many ways. Rinoa herself states she will have a successor so her powers will one day reach Ultimecia, the Ultimania makes it clear that Rinoa must give up her powers before dying (which we know she must), and there are plenty of possible successors in the entire world of FF8.

It is not reasonable or parsimonious to assume Rinoa never has a successor, because it goes against the game and has no backing. Heck, according to the Ultimania it isn't even possible.

There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

The purpose of my FAQ was to show that virtually all the so-called "evidence" is NOT suggestive of R=U at all, and that they all make huge, shaky leaps in logic to establish R=U, when there are much more reasonable, simple steps of logic which demonstrate that the hints do not actually indicate R=U at all. In other words, the hints are not nearly good enough to count as meaningful evidence towards the theory.

You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

I've never been concerned with the validity of your "questions", only the manner in which you try to answer them.

And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Sorry, but since the statement "Rinoa will not find a successor" is the outrageous claim (see above), you're the one who has to prove it. I don't have to prove anything, just like I don't have to prove that Squall is not a Moomba even if you believe he is.

Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Appeal to motive, as Ryu would say. And correctly so. Stop acting as if you're only trying to "free us from the Matrix" and concentrate on showing us that it exists to begin with. Because you have not done so yet.

So I'm afraid I cannot agree to disagree. You have yet to show why R=U can be considered valid. All you have done is point out that it is possible. But "Squall is a Moomba" is also possible, yet I'm sure you would agree that is not valid.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What proof do you need? She's the Final Sorceress. Ultimecia Reign is technically within their lifetime, there is no evidence of a Successor to Rinoa. What more does this make this valid to your judgement? You may as well try to convience me the validity that there is without a doubt a successor.

I really wish I could say more, but I can't... Maybe later. Till then, good journey.

[Sir Bahamut]

What proof do I need? Well, you could start by proving this:

She's the Final Sorceress.

Entirely unfounded. The Ultimania states a sorceress MUST give up her powers before dying, and since Rinoa has a regular lifespan, there MUST necessarily be a successor eventually. You have yet to demonstrate how there could NOT be a successor. You have also yet to give any good arguments as to why the sorceresses we fight in TC are not in the in the era between Rinoa and Ultimecia.

Ultimecia Reign is technically within their lifetime, there is no evidence of a Successor to Rinoa.

No, Ultimecia's reign is NOT within their lifetime. You have completely ignored Lagunas statement that "Ultimecia lives far in the future, where none of us can technically exist". That, the "many generations" and the several sorceresses we fight on the way to Ultimecia all demonstrate that Ultimecia clearly lives outside their lifetime.

You may as well try to convience me the validity that there is without a doubt a successor.

1. Laguna states explicitly that Ultimecia lives in a future where none of the party can technically exist, hence it's outside their lifetime.
2. If it's outside their lifetime, Rinoa must necessarily die of old age before Ultimecia's era.
3. As a sorceress, she MUST give up her powers before dying.
4. Hence, there must be a successor.

Simple.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Laguna states explicitly that Ultimecia lives in a future where none of the party can technically exist, hence it's outside their lifetime.

And this is Laguna... The man is a complete idiot. He makes George Bush at the very least look like a Sixth Grade Validictorian.

As for the time... Remember when we were talking about 'Dominos'? I already explained that. Why else would she need Ellone?