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Thread: is Sephiroth the best bad guy in the series?

  1. #61
    YOU BOYS LIKE MEXICO?! Jowy's Avatar
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    Garland is the first boss in FF1. He also turns into Chaos, the final boss.

    Neo Ex-Death was the hardest Final Fantasy endboss, in my opinion. Kefka was the best villian.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisfffan View Post
    I think sephiroth was the hardest to beat aswell Kuja was easy i beat him first time as for garland you dont even fight him!
    You fight two garlands for a total of three battles (Garland, Chaos, G9)

  3. #63

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    thanks for filling me in i thought everyone was on about that old guy Garland out of 9 with zidane and vivi

  4. #64
    Banned Dragon Mage's Avatar
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    That's not his mother. It's not even an entity separate from Sephiroth mentally. It's an extension of himself, sent to do his bidding while he gathered power.
    Oh boy, not this again. Yes we know that Jenova wasn't his actual biological mother. We got that. But I'm using 'mother' (Jenova) because that's what he constantly reffered to her as. I'm just going with the flow, in this case. Besides, it has been agreed upon that the sephiroth you see throughout the game is just Jenova, controlled by sephiroth, in a different form.

    Genius and insanity are NOT mutually exclusive. Not to say that you are incorrent, but Hojo, for example, was bat loco.
    Oh, yes he was insane. Cunningly insane, but still insane. And, of all things, insanity does not make one cool. (a red cape does!) but not insanity.

    The man can kill you without mussing his do. That's decently badass.
    Considering that he didn't really have any hair style to mess up...it still does not make him cool.

    The Dino Killer was larger than Meteor. Meteor was also moving at slower speeds.
    And no, Sephiroth was NOT destroying the world to give it back to his mother. He was doing it for himself. At one point when he thought he was an ancient, he was doing it to revenge the atrocities done to himself and what he thought was his mother, but by the time the game starts, it's all about the Sephy.
    If the 'dino killer' was bigger than meteor then please, do explain how an asteroid is bigger than a small planet!
    And sephiroth said that he was going to give the planet back to his mother. I believe it was in the flashback. So it was all about him destroying the world for his mother.

    HE WAS JENOVA'S MIND. JENOVA WAS HIS PUPPET, HIS MINION, HIS TOOL.
    Please reread the quote you were replying too.

    Never underestimate the rogue or the monk.
    And Wizards are only as good as the person playing them. I've known MANY a horrible wizard in my day.
    By the by, what about spellblades, eh? Y'know, sword AND sorcery?
    Of course, any mage is only good so long as their spells hold out, and they have a nasty tendency to run out.
    When you look at the potential each class has, they're all very badas*. Each deserves respect.
    If what you say about wizards and the player is true, then I'm afraid you have yet to meet an actual experienced wizard class player.
    Spellblades are very nice no doubt. But they're that nice because they combine magic with the sword. Not the other way around.
    And as for your slam at the spells, wizards have a good number of spells, esp., if you take the time to scribe some scrolls, have a high intelligance score, and know how to manipulate the given amount of spells well. It all takes some careful planning and calculations, but it is well worth it. And wizards are not useless without any spells if they have a natural strength score of 17. I don't even use spells half the time. I tend to use more spells in areas other than battle.

    Yes, one of the lowest powered setting in D&D...
    Do explain. A dragon orb, grimoire, epic weapons, artifacts...seems pretty powerful to me.

    Just getting started. You WILL be knocked down.
    Let the games begin.


    Requiring at least a standard action (a large chunk of any turn), unless they waste spell slots in order to reduce that casting time.
    That's because you have to take a metamagic feat which use up an insane amount of slots. And please remember that if you're going to cast a spell, you shouldn't be in a position where you have to move in the same turn. And once that spell is cast, you shouldn't have any problems to require moving in the same turn.

    And any good fighter should be able to hit the Wizard enough that the CUMULATIVE concentration check will be an issue.
    Of course, I much prefer the silencing strike. Unless you silented all your spells, a damn waste of spell slots, you have none.
    My good sir, you have been using the wizard incorrectly. A wizard stays away, preferably, from the main concentration of battle, letting opponents come to him and pick them off as they charge at him. And any good wizard has already prepared and protected himself against any attacks and any good wizard kills the fighters before he lets them reach him.
    And the Silent spell feat takes up only a spell slot one level higher. Rather cheap considering that Explosive Spell takes up a slot 3 or 4 spell levels up.
    Last edited by Dragon Mage; 10-09-2006 at 12:29 AM.

  5. #65
    Friendship *is* magic. MJN SEIFER's Avatar
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    I am still deciding who my favourite villain of FF is.

    But Sephy will still be high on my list as he was my first.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy View Post
    in my opinion. Kefka was the best villian.
    Kefka was the best villian, in my books anyway. He was the only one that was a complete psycho from start to finish. There was no questioning his good side, because there was none.

    Kuja, FFIX Spoiler: Seemed like he finally changed at the end, but it was too late by then.

    Sephiroth: His loyalty to Jenova bugged me, just like as if he were a puppet such as Cloud. Also, Sephiroth was too mellow for a villian. He just killed people and moved on.

    Then, I don't know about Garland, Zeromus was just a blob so it was hard to determine whether or not I hated or liked him. Um...Yu Yevon, same thing, except with 8 legs. ANd then, mm, that's it.

    Kefka wins! He was undoubtedly the bad guy, and was not going back.
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  7. #67

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    While Sephiroth was an excellent, well-developed villian, I don't think he was the best in the series. He was probably second best to Kefka.

    You see, Sephy was noble, in a sense. He was doing what he thought was right. He wasn't trying to do evil. He was doing "justice" and all that.

    Kefka was just purely insane. He was evil for the sake of evil. He killed people just to hear their screams. His reason for being was to prolong hatred and suffering, not some noble cause.

    As far as the gameplay bit goes, I do like Sephy more. I thought it was a better fight. Plus, it's all packed up with the sweet mondo Omnislash at the end of the whole thing, which was awesome. But you get the phases of the fight, and the trading off between parties, and the showdown with Savior Sephiroth, complete with Supernova, which is awesome looking. And it's really not as devastating as I once thought it was.

    But music, I'd go with Kefka. Dancing Mad is WAYYYYYYY cooler than One Winged Angel. I'm not saying that OWA isn't a good song; it is. But Dancing Mad is WAYYYYYYYY better.
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  8. #68
    Banned Dragon Mage's Avatar
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    Sephiroth: His loyalty to Jenova bugged me, just like as if he were a puppet such as Cloud. Also, Sephiroth was too mellow for a villian. He just killed people and moved on.
    When a person just loses it, there is no true rhyme or reason to what they do. But I agree; he killed things then moved on. whoopee. *yawns*

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by feioncastor View Post
    You see, Sephy was noble, in a sense. He was doing what he thought was right. He wasn't trying to do evil. He was doing "justice" and all that.
    Yeah, killing a whole town and burning it to the ground is the definition of "justice".

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Mage View Post
    Oh boy, not this again. Yes we know that Jenova wasn't his actual biological mother. We got that. But I'm using 'mother' (Jenova) because that's what he constantly reffered to her as. I'm just going with the flow, in this case. Besides, it has been agreed upon that the sephiroth you see throughout the game is just Jenova, controlled by sephiroth, in a different form.
    Which does not refute, and actually supports my assertion that Jenova is merely an extension of Sephiroth himself.

    Oh, yes he was insane. Cunningly insane, but still insane. And, of all things, insanity does not make one cool. (a red cape does!) but not insanity.
    Red Herring much? The point was about genius and insanity not being mutually exclusive, not coolness.
    Though again, Insanity is also not mutually exclusive with coolness.

    Considering that he didn't really have any hair style to mess up...it still does not make him cool.
    You just keep on telling yourself that.

    If the 'dino killer' was bigger than meteor then please, do explain how an asteroid is bigger than a small planet!
    Meteor was not the size of a small planet. In fact, It's not signifigantly larger than Midgar. And, as mentioned, it's not moving as fast. In fact, it actually was just sitting around, casually destroying Midgar. Unless it's got a death star inside, it's not going to planetbust.

    And sephiroth said that he was going to give the planet back to his mother. I believe it was in the flashback. So it was all about him destroying the world for his mother.
    And then he decided to do it for himself once he learned the truth.

    Please reread the quote you were replying too.
    And?
    Oh, you want I should address the rest of it? He didn't kill the clones, they fell by the wayside- and as for why he wanted Cloud alive- he says it himself- he wants the boy to suffer.

    When you look at the potential each class has, they're all very badas*. Each deserves respect.
    If what you say about wizards and the player is true, then I'm afraid you have yet to meet an actual experienced wizard class player.
    I never said that. I said that a wizard is only as good as the player. Same as a fighter. If you know the rules, you can easily make a melee character no spellcaster can hope to contest.

    Spellblades are very nice no doubt. But they're that nice because they combine magic with the sword. Not the other way around.


    And as for your slam at the spells, wizards have a good number of spells, esp., if you take the time to scribe some scrolls, have a high intelligance score, and know how to manipulate the given amount of spells well. It all takes some careful planning and calculations, but it is well worth it.
    Exactly. It is the player, not the spells, that makes the spells tactically worthwhile.

    And wizards are not useless without any spells if they have a natural strength score of 17.
    And how often does this happen? And yes, even with 17 str, the Wizard devoid of all its spells will be horrendously hosed.

    I don't even use spells half the time. I tend to use more spells in areas other than battle.
    So you don't wizard in battle. What do you do in battle, then?

    Do explain. A dragon orb, grimoire, epic weapons, artifacts...seems pretty powerful to me.
    Oh pish tosh. You've said nothing that's not common to most premade settings, and damn near omnipresent once modules, homebuilds, etc. get brought in. Heck, basic greyhawk has all that stuff, and then some.

    Let the games begin.
    First up, dodge the falling rocks competition. See you once it's complete.

    That's because you have to take a metamagic feat which use up an insane amount of slots. And please remember that if you're going to cast a spell, you shouldn't be in a position where you have to move in the same turn. And once that spell is cast, you shouldn't have any problems to require moving in the same turn.
    Under perfect circumstances, this may be true. Guess how often perfect circumstances come up?

    My good sir, you have been using the wizard incorrectly. A wizard stays away, preferably, from the main concentration of battle, letting opponents come to him and pick them off as they charge at him. And any good wizard has already prepared and protected himself against any attacks and any good wizard kills the fighters before he lets them reach him.
    And the Silent spell feat takes up only a spell slot one level higher. Rather cheap considering that Explosive Spell takes up a slot 3 or 4 spell levels up.
    If you assume perfect conditions, it's no wonder you don't see the issue. Battle rarely starts with the wizard in such a priveliged position. Needless to say, one can, and has often, snuck up on a wizard in the middle of pitched battle.

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    Banned Dragon Mage's Avatar
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    Which does not refute, and actually supports my assertion that Jenova is merely an extension of Sephiroth himself.
    I didn't mean to refute. It's common knowledge who and what Jenova is and her connection to Sephiroth. But then the debate is over the whole biological mother and psychological mother relationships. And that will never end. I was just trying to end a perpetual argument it before it started.

    Red Herring much? The point was about genius and insanity not being mutually exclusive, not coolness.
    Though again, Insanity is also not mutually exclusive with coolness.
    Nope, Vincent. And any other baddy with a red cape in a movie or game. ( a surprising amount.) It seems that if one has a red cape, they are automatically elevated to a state of ultimate coolness.
    I never called Sephiroth genius-he certainly isn't if he's going to destroy the world with him on it. I just called him clever.

    You just keep on telling yourself that.
    But it's true.

    Meteor was not the size of a small planet. In fact, It's not signifigantly larger than Midgar. And, as mentioned, it's not moving as fast. In fact, it actually was just sitting around, casually destroying Midgar. Unless it's got a death star inside, it's not going to planetbust.
    Aeris says otherwise. (lol) It's not moving as fast because they had to have a big dramatic ending scene in where all your efforts may have gone to waste. And then of course the drop-off ending. It's all about the suspense! Called director's license.

    And?
    Oh, you want I should address the rest of it? He didn't kill the clones, they fell by the wayside- and as for why he wanted Cloud alive- he says it himself- he wants the boy to suffer.
    refer to first quote and response on this post. That was what I was trying to get through, with less words.

    I never said that. I said that a wizard is only as good as the player. Same as a fighter. If you know the rules, you can easily make a melee character no spellcaster can hope to contest.
    Exactly. And judging from what you've said, you've yet to meet an experienced player.

    Exactly. It is the player, not the spells, that makes the spells tactically worthwhile.
    I'm glad we agree.

    And how often does this happen?
    My wizard has has a str of 17. (very useful) You'd be surprised at how often this does happen.

    And yes, even with 17 str, the Wizard devoid of all its spells will be horrendously hosed.
    Not if you know what you're doing. This is where that str and dex come in, and the Ambidexterity feat. (Start whallopin' with that staff!:twak as well as any magical items. You're given the Scribe Scroll feat for a reason; why not use it for times like these, when you're out of spells? And don't forget Spell Mastery. This will bail you out of many situations.

    So you don't wizard in battle. What do you do in battle, then?
    Oh, I use spells. But not exclusively spells as my only weapon. My spell storing staff, and, believe it or not, potions. Not 'spell' potions, just acid and nitroglycerin. Lovely stuff. In a serious battle (dragon, hello!) That's when I whip out the higher spells, not neccessarily attack, but more often than not, something that seriously handicapps the monster. That way all the other party members can benefit as well. Once this is done, let the lighning bolts fly.

    Oh pish tosh. You've said nothing that's not common to most premade settings, and damn near omnipresent once modules, homebuilds, etc. get brought in. Heck, basic greyhawk has all that stuff, and then some.
    *shrugs* whatever; it all depends on what level you start at. (a good amount don't start at 1, surprisingly enough.) But keep in mind a lot of those were made for players that are twinks. If it didn't have that stuff in it, it wouldn't be 'awesome' enought to bother playing. (in the majority opinion) It doesn't really matter here though. Let's end the Dragonlance bit, shall we? I'm afraid we may be getting a bit off topic.

    First up, dodge the falling rocks competition. See you once it's complete.


    Under perfect circumstances, this may be true. Guess how often perfect circumstances come up?
    Factor in the other player whaling on the same monster, pretty often. Besides, you can only take a 5-foot step in the same round you cast a spell. That doesn't do you much, unless you cas Expiditious Retreat. And you have to cast the spell that will lever you into such an ideal situation. Don't wait for these circumstance to come up: make them happen.

    If you assume perfect conditions, it's no wonder you don't see the issue. Battle rarely starts with the wizard in such a priveliged position. Needless to say, one can, and has often, snuck up on a wizard in the middle of pitched battle.
    Unless 1-you are going to the battle, not ambushed, and 2-if you are ambushed that's what the skills and feats other than magic ones are for, and 3-stay in the middle of the group, chances are better you'll end up in such a position.
    Like I said, make your conditions the way you want them. Manipulate the monsters-it's not about how much damage you can do; it's about what you can do without dealing damage or using attack spells. Spider Climb will become a very useful spell in nearly any situation, as well as invisibility, charm monster, hold person/monster, blindness/deafness, etc.

    As for the part about sneaking up on a wizard-that's what familiars are for!

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Mage View Post
    I didn't mean to refute. It's common knowledge who and what Jenova is and her connection to Sephiroth. But then the debate is over the whole biological mother and psychological mother relationships. And that will never end. I was just trying to end a perpetual argument it before it started.
    Alright. I misunderstood. People misconstruing the Jenova/Sephy dynamic irks me too.


    Nope, Vincent. And any other baddy with a red cape in a movie or game. ( a surprising amount.) It seems that if one has a red cape, they are automatically elevated to a state of ultimate coolness.
    I never called Sephiroth genius-he certainly isn't if he's going to destroy the world with him on it. I just called him clever.
    I'm not saying that red capes don't make you cool, just that such a statement is rather irrelevant. I also don't recall ever trying to make the claim that Sephy's a genius. I personally don't think many FF villians are geniuses, excepting Yu Yevon, the Garlands, and maybe Zeromus. And sephy wasn't planning on destroying the world, he was planning on wounding it to such a degree that it would shunt all available energy to healing, energy which he planned to absorb and become unto a god.

    But it's true.
    long hair, especially bishy style hair, is hard to make do what you want with it. Killing you without mussing himself at all, especially given his style, is decently impressive.

    Aeris says otherwise. (lol) It's not moving as fast because they had to have a big dramatic ending scene in where all your efforts may have gone to waste. And then of course the drop-off ending. It's all about the suspense! Called director's license.
    Dialogue Uber Alles! Aerith can be wrong, or speaking in a different sense, such as "Kill everything on the surface", instead of "make planet explode".
    Also, there's director's license, but I prefer suspension of disbelief when analyzing fiction.

    refer to first quote and response on this post. That was what I was trying to get through, with less words.
    Fair enough.

    Exactly. And judging from what you've said, you've yet to meet an experienced player.
    No, I've met plenty of good players, who can utilize the mage well. This does not, however, mean that the mage is teh uber. It means they can utilize the mage classes well. Similarly, they can utilize the fighter classes well. At the high end, they tend to cancel each other out. It's Monk and Psion that tend to get broken at high end, once they start getting real esoteric stuff people can't counter that well.

    I'm glad we agree.:)
    Which has kind of been the point all along.

    My wizard has has a str of 17. (very useful) You'd be surprised at how often this does happen.
    To you, it might happen a lot. I personally have rolled near all 18's for character creation before, and made a Scoundrel who could kill a much ubered Emperor Palapatine with his bare hands twice in as many turns (don't ask). The thing is

    Not if you know what you're doing. This is where that str and dex come in, and the Ambidexterity feat. (Start whallopin' with that staff!:twak:) as well as any magical items. You're given the Scribe Scroll feat for a reason; why not use it for times like these, when you're out of spells? And don't forget Spell Mastery. This will bail you out of many situations.
    Scribe takes time, money, and Xp to do. Anyone can use magical items (and thanks to the artificer, the mage has become slightly redundant in their creation). Now, the mage can try for melee, but he will be very very bad at it compared to any other class out there.

    Oh, I use spells. But not exclusively spells as my only weapon. My spell storing staff, and, believe it or not, potions. Not 'spell' potions, just acid and nitroglycerin. Lovely stuff. In a serious battle (dragon, hello!) That's when I whip out the higher spells, not neccessarily attack, but more often than not, something that seriously handicapps the monster. That way all the other party members can benefit as well. Once this is done, let the lighning bolts fly.
    I hope you take precautions against that nitro. But I can understand the sentiment. Even though I like taking my characters down certain paths, I do prepare backups, like the Unarmed specialist scoundrel whose primary form of assault was a gun that could only be called a pistol by the slimmest of margins (he had also made it even more destructive than it usually was, but nevermind that).

    *shrugs* whatever; it all depends on what level you start at. (a good amount don't start at 1, surprisingly enough.) But keep in mind a lot of those were made for players that are twinks. If it didn't have that stuff in it, it wouldn't be 'awesome' enought to bother playing. (in the majority opinion) It doesn't really matter here though. Let's end the Dragonlance bit, shall we? I'm afraid we may be getting a bit off topic.
    Fair enough, though I wouldn't call greyhawk made for twinks. It's just kind of the rome for all D&D. Eventually everything winds up there.


    Factor in the other player whaling on the same monster, pretty often. Besides, you can only take a 5-foot step in the same round you cast a spell. That doesn't do you much, unless you cas Expiditious Retreat. And you have to cast the spell that will lever you into such an ideal situation. Don't wait for these circumstance to come up: make them happen.
    Yeah, if there's only one monster. Most DMs I've found like peppering the party with other monsters at the same time.

    Unless 1-you are going to the battle, not ambushed, and 2-if you are ambushed that's what the skills and feats other than magic ones are for, and 3-stay in the middle of the group, chances are better you'll end up in such a position.
    Even going into battle, you can start at seriously reduced ranges, such as any interior battle, or when circumstances

    Like I said, make your conditions the way you want them. Manipulate the monsters-it's not about how much damage you can do; it's about what you can do without dealing damage or using attack spells. Spider Climb will become a very useful spell in nearly any situation, as well as invisibility, charm monster, hold person/monster, blindness/deafness, etc.

    As for the part about sneaking up on a wizard-that's what familiars are for!
    Oh right, Familiars. They can also be snuck up on. And if you kill them, bad things happen to that wizard.
    Spider Climb is useful, both as a spell and ability, invisibility quickly becomes underpowered as everything gets to detect you somehow other than sight at later levels, charm monster has a built in limit that the monsters you really want to charm generally exceed (to say nothing of the ones that are smegging immune). Hold can be quite useful, and so can blindness/deafness, but none of those have a particularly difficult save, so hope they roll low.

  13. #73
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    His appearance can make him the best bad guy in the series...but the part he played in the series I doubt that he is the best bad guy...I felt that Sephiroth...was defeated too easily...even in FF7 AC...


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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisfffan View Post
    I think sephiroth was the hardest to beat aswell Kuja was easy i beat him first time as for garland you dont even fight him!
    Are you saying the hardest final boss? If so I don't know what your talking about!

    Zeromus was incredibly tough (Big Bang 2000 damage all that kills 2 of my party members and leaves the rest low health I'm lucky I was playing easy type!)

    Necron had much better attacks and was more difficult (Grand Cross and Neutron Ring where better then Super Nova)
    Even BFA was harder then Seph.

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    Banned Dragon Mage's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that red capes don't make you cool, just that such a statement is rather irrelevant. I also don't recall ever trying to make the claim that Sephy's a genius. I personally don't think many FF villians are geniuses, excepting Yu Yevon, the Garlands, and maybe Zeromus. And sephy wasn't planning on destroying the world, he was planning on wounding it to such a degree that it would shunt all available energy to healing, energy which he planned to absorb and become unto a god.
    Well, the red cape thing was kind of an attempt at humor. And I was saying that whole thing with sephiroth and being smart ect, because I was saying that being insane doesn't make you cool. ~Reno~ said to name one evil guy that isn't insane, and I said 'mad' (supposedly) scientists aren't because their ideas could actually work in some cases. (unless it's got some magic in it then, no it wouldn't work and yes, they are insane. But that's the exception.
    As for sephiroth's plan...let's just say that there was too much room for error to work exactly the way he wanted it too. So much more or much less damage would have been wrought, more likely the former.

    ong hair, especially bishy style hair, is hard to make do what you want with it. Killing you without mussing himself at all, especially given his style, is decently impressive.
    Bishy? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the term. Or did you mean bushy? Hmm. It always seemed to me that he didn't have a hair style, he just wore it 'freestyle' if you will. Thus my claim that he didn't have a hair style to mess up.

    To you, it might happen a lot. I personally have rolled near all 18's for character creation before, and made a Scoundrel who could kill a much ubered Emperor Palapatine with his bare hands twice in as many turns (don't ask). The thing is
    Well just rub it in, getting 18's all the time. I have yet to roll an 18, I'll have you know! (lol).

    Scribe takes time, money, and Xp to do. Anyone can use magical items (and thanks to the artificer, the mage has become slightly redundant in their creation). Now, the mage can try for melee, but he will be very very bad at it compared to any other class out there.
    What version do you play? In my book, it doesn't take XP, just money and time. As too the artificer, I'm afraid I don't know that one. btw, do you play just d20 or classical as well?

    I hope you take precautions against that nitro. But I can understand the sentiment. Even though I like taking my characters down certain paths, I do prepare backups, like the Unarmed specialist scoundrel whose primary form of assault was a gun that could only be called a pistol by the slimmest of margins (he had also made it even more destructive than it usually was, but nevermind that).
    Yeah, that nitro is some serious stuff to be carrying into battle. I keep it in a darkwood case, lined with velvet and padded with the softest wool I could fined. Cost me a bit to get the case made but at least I don't fall down and get blown up wit my own potion!

    Yeah, if there's only one monster. Most DMs I've found like peppering the party with other monsters at the same time.
    Hmm, true. Then you attack the monster nearest to you. (and I know about the multiple monsters; 3 rust monsters are not fun to deal with, especially when your just about the only one that can fight them)

    Even going into battle, you can start at seriously reduced ranges, such as any interior battle, or when circumstances
    er...I think you got cut off for some reason. As for the seriously reduced ranges, mage armor can be your best friend here, as well as shield, blur and displacement.

    Oh right, Familiars. They can also be snuck up on. And if you kill them, bad things happen to that wizard.
    Spider Climb is useful, both as a spell and ability, invisibility quickly becomes underpowered as everything gets to detect you somehow other than sight at later levels, charm monster has a built in limit that the monsters you really want to charm generally exceed (to say nothing of the ones that are smegging immune). Hold can be quite useful, and so can blindness/deafness, but none of those have a particularly difficult save, so hope they roll low.
    Yeah, but then the monster has to make 2 rolls if you have your familiar looking out for you. (psedodragons are very nice; a little stuck up, but nice.)
    Sorry, I meant to type see invisiblity. Charm monster isn't that good for higher level monsters, true, but it may be enought to stop them from dealing a killing blow. And considering my brother (the DM) is rolling for the monsters, and his rolls are notoriously bad (I believe there's something wrong with his dice or he's very unlucky) the monsters usually roll low. But that's just my group.
    What about darkvision, suggestion, chill touch, and daze and it's kindred spells? Those are very useful.

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