SE confirms: player excuse to diminish enjoyment of smn job adjusted

[Garland]

The title you chose for this thread specifically implied that the job of Summoner was somehow diminished by this update, when in fact, the enjoyment people get from this job will probably go up a significant amount with these new adjustments.

Actually, it doesn't imply that at all. Maybe you're familiar with Allakazham's FFXI forums? Or perhaps one of the other multitude of FFXI forums where people reinforce FFXI's unwritten rules? Every day it seems, a new summoner, or a disgruntled old one comes on and rants how summoners shouldn't be main healers. Summoners should summon, they say. And every time this happens, a whole bunch of people with nothing better to do, say: "So what're you going to do for the 60 seconds between BPs? Melee Lolsmn? Nuke w/ ur blm sub for 3 dmg? Ur a gimp". I'm not making this up. I was just making fun of it in my thread title because I read FFXI forums WAY too much. Anway, it needn't have been an issue regardless. I dislike the FFXI community in regards to how anal it gets about perfection. Way too many rules. I make cynical comments about it whenever I get the opportunity. I could've just kept the title informative, but it makes less of a point.

The topic title means: The community will have to adjust their excuse for pidgeonholing summoners in a role many dislike. SE adjusted said excuse by ~30 seconds, letting smn's BP 2x a minute.

[Miriel]

There were two people who helped me become a SMN. Both were level 75 SMNs as their main jobs. Having asked them both about the main healing deal, they both said that they've never had a problem getting parties or forming parties that let them play their job the way they wanted. Which was backup healing and doing the whole BP, melee, deal. From my own experience, I only act as main heal about 20% and even in those cases, no one tells me, "Don't bring out your Avatars."

So all this talk about what the COMMUNITY thinks and what the COMMUNITY says SMNs can and can't do is silly. Because I'm part of the FFXI community and I can't say that I've experienced this whole pidgeonholing deal to the extend you guys talk about.

From my experience as a Summoner, I've had a great time. Casting BPs, doing magic bursts, tossing out the occassional cure.

If, as you say, there are people who are absolutely determined to make SMNs main heal and get all uppity when Avatars are brought out or say that BPs are worthless... well I haven't seen it.

Maybe I just have a great server. But I hardly think that's really the case.

I look at this update and go, "sweeeet!" Y'all look at this update and go, "Well the community thinks this changes NOTHING!"

Brighten up, guys.

[Garland]

Are we playing the same game? I want to play your version. I got chewed out by a manaburn party simply for suggesting I might merit all my elemental potencies equally instead of ice and thunder. Summoners get more crap than I ever did. If you're blessed with such a great community, then you have my congratulations. All I've known since I started playing are the rules. A nonstandard subjob is as anathema to me as running a stopsign. Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Yeargdribble]

Actually the game CAN dictate what you can and can't do to some extent. Try starting a PT as... I dunno... SMN/WAR. Wear melee gear (as best you can) and play as a melee SMN. Your PT will ditch you very quickly. If they don't, they are probably crappy players that can't get any other invites. You will not be able to succeed in this game doing things like SMN/WAR.

You have to play by the rules the community allows. WAR/DRG is a great combo from 20-30 but you'll get far less invites and far less quickly by flagging up that way. Picking popular subs like NIN and MNK will get you faster invites. If you want fast invites you will sub what people tell you to sub.

You CAN do anything you want but you may experience slower invites or have to deal with crappier PTs. Even if you make PTs yourself you will will probably have problems. You may say that SMN/WAR is a bad example because it's a stupid combination. But keep in mind that there are immature players that will say any job not subbing NIN is a stupid combination too.

[Miriel]

Yes I realize that the game and the rules the community establishes can determine how people play.

BUT. The big difference is that the idea that Summoners must main heal is not something I have personally experienced to the extent you were describing. So it's not not the same thing. I haven't had crappier parties because I wasn't the main healer. I've really enjoyed leveling SMN. Even though I vowed to take White Mage to 75, I'm finding myself more and more wanting to get SMN to 75 instead.

So what you and Garland were describing seemed more akin to the idea that there are tons of n00bs running around talking in unintelligible n00b speak. Yes, on occassion you will see people talk liek dis u no? But these people aren't a plague sweeping the game as some people like to pretend they are. Just like SMNs aren't as pigeonholed or bound to main healing as some people make them out to be.

[Yeargdribble]

Not to seem offensive but you have to keep in mind what levels you are.

Leveling pre-37 it is painfully easy to get a PT and do almost anything you want. Also, almost all of the regular leveling spots are pretty simple to get to. Qufim -> Kazham -> GC -> CN. These places are all near cities.

As you go higher it becomes increasingly difficult to find people that will XP without an efficient set up. When it's only 6k to the next level, meh. When it's 30k to the next level it's a different story. Who wants to leave town and go all the way to Kuftal, Cape Terrigan, Boyadha Tree, etc without a good and efficient set up?

A much much larger portion of the community is 40-75 than 1-40. This is the community most of us deal with and the community that me and Garland speak of.

[Miriel]

Yes I do keep that in mind, but the two amazing Summoners I had as my mentors, were both level 75 SMNs. And that was their main job. They were the ones who helped me get my ruby, the ones who gave me the strategy to win the Avatar fights, the ones who gave a newbie SMN all the info and tips that I could ever ask for, and I have *specifically* asked them about the main healing issue. And they have *specifically* told me that while on occassion, every summoner has to main heal, they've always been able to find parties or create their own parties that allowed them to take the role of a Summoner in a party, not a gimped white mage.

And I don't really think they would have lied so...

[Yeargdribble]

A friend of mine is a 75 SMN (and 75 BLM). He leveled SMN similarly to your friends, forming his own PTs so that he could actually summon. He ocassionally had to break down and main heal because people pretty much refused to PT with him.

After leveling his BLM he realized that he was able to get into more standard PTs. These PTs generally had better players and not just the scraps that were desperate for invites. Playing it your own way will definitely slow you down.

I think this update will seriously benefit SMN and make it on par for some of these better PTs. I honestly think it has been gimped until now and this is a great thing they have done. But, knowing the playerbase in regard to other changes from the past, this update probably won't mean much.

When RNG was nerfed it was IMMEDIATELY shunned. When SE destroys a job everyone jumps on quickly. But no matter how much DRG has been buffed up and no matter how much DRK has been buffed up... people won't let go of their preconceptions. I don't see that trend changing for SMN.

[Miriel]

Well, maybe it had something to do with the level of skill that my two SMNs friends both had. They were two of the best players I have ever had the pleasure of meeting in-game. I partied with them once as they were leveling secondary jobs and it was probably the most efficient party I've ever had in my entire time of playing FFXI. Not to mention they were a part of one of Pandemonium's most well respected Linkshells.

I always thought it was silly that people sat around waiting for people to invite them when they could just make their own party if they really wanted to exp. If you were a "nerfed" RNG, then be a party leader, invite people, and say, "hey, we're not super powerful anymore, but here's what I can still contribute to the party." Same thing for SMN. Everyone wants you to main heal? Form your own party.

And I think it's a mistake to assume that as a party leader, you're only gonna get the scrapes of desperate players. All parties need to start somewhere, why can't it be with a Summoner? Why would a party started by one of the less in-demand jobs mean that it's gonna be less workable?

I'm a Summoner, and to me this update means a lot. And I believe that this means that SMNs can bring more to the table which is a great thing. Who ever said that this update was gonna change the way the job functioned? It's a happy update. Let's all be happy.

[Yeargdribble]

And I think it's a mistake to assume that as a party leader, you're only gonna get the scrapes of desperate players. All parties need to start somewhere, why can't it be with a Summoner? Why would a party started by one of the less in-demand jobs mean that it's gonna be less workable?

Actually, you are likely to end up with scraps because the BRDs, RDMs, CORs, NINs, etc would often rather look for a PT than wait for a SMN or RNG or DRG or DRK to put one together. They will often leave your PT because in the time that it takes one of the less favorable jobs to make a PT they could've had 3 or 4 invites and can take their pick of the best PTs.

Sure it's an elitist attitude, but that's FFXI.

[Miriel]

I thought you said BRDs on your server don't get invites quickly.

And you sure seem to have a dim outlook about things in FFXI. Or maybe I'm naive. But at least I'm happy and having fun! *is still super excited about this update even if none of y'all are*

[Yeargdribble]

Well it all depends on the level range. It's not realliy that they don't get invites.. it's just that invites slow down considerably (relative to BRD invites 25-41 and 55-75). BRDs in their optimum level range can be prima donnas :rolleyes2 as can other popular jobs.


I will be the first to admit that this game turns people into pessimistic assholes. I witnessed it from people who were higher and had started earlier than I had. I still get excited about updates every time they come around. However, I take them with a dose of reality which results in pessimism.

However, as pessimistic as I am about the game it's not because I dislike it. I still enjoy it a lot and look forward to improvements. I've just learned to deal with certain bitter realities. Most of these have to do with endgame and give a sort of slant toward other things in game.

-RMT run rampant
-There is a lot of racism towards NAs... much of it from GMs.
-People bot claims constantly.
-GMs can't/won't do anything.
-Ullikummi is broken and SE tries to 'fix' it by making it easier for RMT and harder for real players.

[Garland]

I will be the first to admit that this game turns people into pessimistic assholes. I witnessed it from people who were higher and had started earlier than I had. I still get excited about updates every time they come around. However, I take them with a dose of reality which results in pessimism.

That sums me up as well. Though, I am trying to reform. The change in personality happenned so gradually I didn't even notice. I signed on back on March 24 of 04 for the PS2 release with naive hopes, and I saw the world of Vanadiel through rose colored glasses. I've always had fun, but my perceptions of the game and how I dealt with people changed quite a bit over time. In time, I knew my place, and I knew everyone elses' place, and like a Hindu caste system, I became molded into a sort of Vanadiel 10 Commandments personified. Reading forums and dealing with people who knew all the "rules" made me a rulebook. If anyone knows a retailer in the Al Zahbi region that sells rose colored glasses, send me a /tell. My old ones are stained with crud and I can't see any light.

[Captain Maxx Power]

If you're so miserable about it, then just stop playing.

[Del Murder]

The community is not an entity to itself, it is made up of people. Just because there are some people who are stubborn and closed minded doesn't mean there are plenty of people out there like us who know every job when used properly and in the right mix can benefit it's party in many different ways. The easiest way to ignore the stereotypers is to just form your own party. You can pick your role and the roles around you any way you think it will be efficient. Most people are grateful for invites, and unless you are some bizarre combo I really don't see how hard it would be to get them to join.