could this be the best final fantasy?

[Rodney]

I only mention it cause to me, you are comparing FFXII to what I feel is the worst game in the series. Whereas you feel FFX is the best. I'm not trying to pick a fight though, so please take this with a good sense of humor.

So . . . what was it you felt was the worst game in this series?

Personally, while I don't think is the best game, I certainly find it a good one. I do agree there seems to be virtually no point to Vaan or Penelo, whereas Ashe, Basch, Fran, and Balthier do have points. Hell, even Larsa, a guest character, has more point than Vaan and Penelo.

The game could use more humor, though. Only laugh I've ever gotten was when Vaan asked . . . something he shouldn't have.

That said, I actually like the music in this game much more than I like the music in any of the other games I've played (which have been V through X).

[Renmiri]

Then, can I say the same thing? License Board does not make your character a clone in the middle of the game!!

Before you say it's so easy, let me ask you something, have you completed your LB yet?

Sphere Grid only require 1 AP to activate one node, License Board require 5-235 LP to activate one node. And there are people who didn't finished his/her license board in "regular" game, even some hard-training player like me didn't finished my license board on my hard-training playthrough.

I'm pretty darn close. The top board is all but done.

I have completed magicks, techs and power ups for all my characters, by the end of Miriam stillshrine. And all the armor / weapon /accessories I can buy too.

I left gambits at 5-7 per character and concentrated my guys / gals on using Axes, bows and swords.

I could have varied the weapons but why if Axes give so much more hit power ?

[LazarCotoron]

I should warn-I make long posts.

So, 'best FF ever', eh?

I'm new around here because an evil friend of mine told me about this and I just needed to check it out.

Before I get into my thoughts on this topic at hand, Renmiri-I see that you truly love FFX. I'd like to give something in that regard-you're dead right that FFX had the BEST opening of any FF game. For me though, FFX focused on the characters I cared least about and the characters that I was truly interested in (*COUGH* LULU! *coughcough*) the game sorta' just tacked on. An affront which slapped FFX down so hard I got to the final battle and asked myself, "..why am I playing this?" As amazing as Auron was, he was not enough to bring me into the conclusion sequence of a game which dragged on, though for different reasons than FFXII (yes, I agree XII does drag on some).

Now for the matter at hand.

Before I played FFXII, if you would've asked me what the best FF game ever was, I'd have said FFIX or Tactics, more or less depending on the day. FFIX was a beautiful game where I really could feel the plights of the characters resonating strongly within me-it's not a far stretch to say that a little bit of Vivi and a little bit of Freya are part of who I really am. The art style was precisely that-an art STYLE. Seeing faithul renditions of Amano's work carried into 3D was enough to move me tears of joy. Complimented with the amazingly perfect, dramatic score by Uematsu, it was the finest game I'd ever played, especially in the FF series... This is doubly true when people count Tactics as a spin off.

But now that's the funny thing, isn't it? People don't always count Tactics as a spin off. Where FFIX made me relate to the characters on a personal, touching level, Tactics exposed us to innocence and how it was stripped of a boy, a land, and a people by ruthless people vieing for power over one another. A blood soaked ascension, a son who murders his own father, boys who were best friends before brother betrayed brother... Tactics set a mark for complex interwoven relationships between world, land, people, government, and tension. Then it went and coupled it up with a way for me to design the characters I wanted to play and I was hooked. In addition to all that, the Lucavi were the best demons I have ever seen in a Final Fantasy story. To the entire story, they were almost secondary because it was man's lust for power that brought them back to that world.

Vagrant Story gets a mention here because it took what they did in Tactics and took it a few steps further. Unfortunately, Vagrant Story was nearly unplayable for me if I wasn't using certain weapons-VS's nearly 'rythym game' mechanic really messed up my enjoyment of the greatest gothic adventure outside of Castlevania. Nothing pisses off a gamer more than screwed up potential.

So now on to XII. XII isn't the amalgam of everything I'd mentioned that might make it truly the best thing I've ever seen, but you can only push things so far every time you push. I wasn't an early adopter of XII-I let my evil friend I mentioned buy it first so I could check it out first hand. I waited for a friend of mine with tastes similar to mine tell me 'yay' or 'nay'. What I can say for sure off FFXII is that if you're playing it because you want to have some kind of deep, personal attachment to the characters... get it out of your system, that's not going to happen. That game was FFIX, and most of 'you' didn't 'get it'.

The story off FFXII is an epic spread across two empires and many nations-it's not that it's impersonal, it's that these events are so much larger than any one character everyone seems insignificant. In spite of that... These characters have their own motivations, and Vaan, stupid kid that he is, is growing up as time goes on. This is something I can't say for ANY character in all of Final Fantasy except Ramza and Delita, if you count them. Even my precious FFIX doesn't actually grow the characters-by the time Zidane finally begins to learn anything, time isn't left in that story for him to fumble around a bit more in the dark and make real decisions that are tested by the fires of fate. He grows, but by then, he's already comitted to his path.

It's new, it's different, and it definately beats the FF game I start judging all FF games by. The first one I played, of course-FFVI. It's still up in the air for me if it beats IX and Tactics, or is merely the next truly great game in their company in my FF collection.

Though let's be clear-that is nothing to be ashamed of. It does already beat both of those titles put together in one way. The world off FFXII beats any and all FF worlds-no, let's go further than that. The world off FFXII is as alive and believable as a pre-programmed world made of text and characters with preset movements can conceivably be at this point in time. FFXII has thrown down a gauntlet in challenge to the way RPGs have been created in the past. This isn't conjecture, this is a fact. By challenging the very 'stuff' of those older games, everyone in this topic has a fiery opinion, and everyone here agrees on at least one thing.

It's the most different Final Fantasy of them all.

[Renmiri]

Renmiri-I see that you truly love FFX. I'd like to give something in that regard-you're dead right that FFX had the BEST opening of any FF game.

That it did Txs!

For me though, FFX focused on the characters I cared least about and the characters that I was truly interested in (*COUGH* LULU! *coughcough*) the game sorta' just tacked on. An affront which slapped FFX down so hard I got to the final battle and asked myself, "..why am I playing this?"

I hated the end with Tidus dying

Nothing pisses off a gamer more than screwed up potential.

I guess this is why I've been ranting at FFXII so much. It could have been better than all, but...

Vaan, stupid kid that he is, is growing up as time goes on. This is something I can't say for ANY character in all of Final Fantasy

On the contrary. Tidus grew from a little clownish "surfer dude" to a world savior who sacrifices himself right before your eys on X. His voice even changed!

It's new, it's different, and it definately beats the FF game I start judging all FF games by... The world off FFXII beats any and all FF worlds-no, let's go further than that. The world off FFXII is as alive and believable as a pre-programmed world made of text and characters with preset movements can conceivably be at this point in time.

Agreed 100% which makes me downright pissed off at the lame writing / weak soundtrack. The potential wasted thingie.

FFXII has thrown down a gauntlet in challenge to the way RPGs have been created in the past. This isn't conjecture, this is a fact. By challenging the very 'stuff' of those older games, everyone in this topic has a fiery opinion, and everyone here agrees on at least one thing. It's the most different Final Fantasy of them all.

You can say the same about FFX2. And it still doesn't excuse X2 from being a lame game, wasting the potential of a brilliant previous game.

I wish we'd get a sequel of XII, this time character based with decent writing

[LazarCotoron]

Desiring a character based story versus a 'swept in the tide of events' story is a valid point. Different writing for different people.

We all see potential from a different point of view-our unique points of view allow us to see things that someone else may not even notice-heck, they might not care at all, and worse yet, downright HATE the potential you see for something amazing.

I love XII so far. I REALLY thought I was going to love X, but the story lacked the elements I was looking for. The gameplay of X was a far cry better than previous entries in the series, and some of X's scenes were amazing. For me, X didn't tie it all together and 'sell the deal' in the same way that VI and IX did -for me-. There was so much in X.. but the second it turned into a time travel story, it took a huge hit in my personal PoV (point of view) because I have issues with time travel stories, personally. I felt it never recovered the power and momentum of the opening, so when I was litterally about to walk into the next screen to fight Sin for the big final battle, all my experiences of the game ran through my head. I realized that I couldn't recall very much at all of the story, other than how the one sequence in which you get to walk around and talk to the other girls for a glimpse of 'what could've been' was a total sham-I thought I was going to learn about the other characters for a change, and really push, at least a little bit, off of the 'rails' the game was on.

But they turned FFX into a railroad ride.... a railroad ride I was stuck taking with Yuna, the girl who's personality is that she doesn't have a personality. Rikku had a personality! Lulu appeared to have a personality, but they didn't even attempt to let you know her well enough to find out if she had one.

Like I said. I see you love X a lot-I don't need to come between you and that love. I feel differently about the game, and heck-it might be as simple as that I'm a guy. *shrugs* Yeah, it's kinda' lame Tidus died at the end...

Your point on X-2 is dead on. And in that regard, not all challenges are good. In terms of the challenges issued from FFXII, though... I think, or at least hope that FFXII's world design becomes the new point where every game world tries to reach. Not just Final Fantasy games-I mean EVERY game. When making a living world, it needs to live.

I don't know how much of a gamer you consider yourself, Renmiri. I don't know how far you will take things, but I can see one thing in particular. The fact that you understand the point about wasted potential and then can even say that you're pissed because you see the wasted potential in something DEFINATELY makes you an ACTUAL gamer. And so we're clear, that's a compliment coming from me.

[Renmiri]

Desiring a character based story versus a 'swept in the tide of events' story is a valid point. Different writing for different people....

The fact that you understand the point about wasted potential and then can even say that you're pissed because you see the wasted potential in something DEFINATELY makes you an ACTUAL gamer. And so we're clear, that's a compliment coming from me.

Txs!

Aye, and writing is a lot easier to fix (errr.. make it to my taste) than graphics / gameplay and world design. So I'm eager for XIII and / or an XII sequel

[LazarCotoron]

Well, there's the sequel spin off FFXII Revenant Wings thingy. It has the appearance of being more character driven, at least, so far.

[Lynx]

i think its possible this is the best final fantasy ever. i didnt read everyones post considering theres a good amount of them but i cans ee not a lot of people like that it isnt driven by the characters.

i personally like that about the game. makes it more realistic really. a small almost uknown group working on takeing down the empire as the empire fights its own battles and grows stronger. i dont really like when the story revolves around you and your team makes it so kinda there fates are set on one path. when the story doesnt revolve around you its more surpriseing you never know what is going to happen next. you were just some kid (normally a kid) liveing in a town and decided you had enough and were going to do something about it.

but besides all that. the story itself is quite interesting. each character has a very real personality. Vaan and panelo act like kids there age would. i also think that balthier is more of the main character in the story then vaan. the story has more to do with him then vaan so far atleats im not done with the game yet.

but i cant decide for sure if this is the best game yet il let you know after i beat it.

[LazarCotoron]

Of course Balthier is the more of the main character... Anyone with the audacity to call themselves 'the leading man' while in the company of other people is automatically the main character.

Y'know, now that I think about it... One of the biggest things I like about FFXII is the complete lack of any of the stereo-typical Japanese hero archetypes. There's no one with a truly mysterious past who is motivated exclusively by the ghostly voices that haunt them (though admittedly Fran is kind've close to that), there's no whiney kid who's forced to fight against his will because he's inexplicably good at it in spite of having the self confidence of the oozy stuff you scrape off your boots (take that, Eva!), and there's none of those "fighting is so terrible that I'm going to be a pacifist and pout when people fight" types. Nor are there any characters that are pacifists but always wind up fighting in the end.

My god, it's the first Final Fantasy since FFVI to feature characters that are more like actual people! I love FFIX, but FFIX had a cast of characters with a specific role-the game was written like a well written play. They weren't based off of real people at all-they were all archetypal characters. And that's good too because it grounds you firmly into that story.

But it saddens me when I think that the last time I played a game that felt like its characters could be real people was Sly Cooper. In fact, when Vaan first meets up with Balthier and Fran, the way he acts really makes him a much more believeable person-coupled with the way that he is treated in turn, it makes those characters live.

Arguments about event driven and character driven stuff aside, FFXII is definately the sort of game that I look forward to playing. Like all of my other favorite games, it transports me to a different place in which I feel deeply involved. Since my basing on whether a game is good or not is based on immersion, FFXII is, by my perceptions, one of the finest games ever. It may be good enough to knock one of my other favorite games out of my personal top ten, and it easily knocks out one of my previously favorite top ten RPGs.

Now to get back to hunting the dread Vorpal Bunny...

[Timerk]

Lynx: When I was playing through the storyline the first time, I was a lot less harsh than I am now because I just assumed certain things were going to happen. I don't mean specific events, but I thought that everything would be tied together and concluded by the end. That doesn't happen in FFXII.

I will be very interested to see what you think once you get finished.

[Renmiri]

Now to get back to hunting the dread Vorpal Bunny...

Use the gambit Foe = Undead / Phoenix down on at least 2 of your characters and Foe party leader's target / drain on all 3 of your active characters.

The dastardly bunny goes down fast with drain (you don't need to be very close to him) after you clear those pesky skeletons

[LazarCotoron]

I ran into the skeles, but there was no vile fluffy bunny bouncing around. It's turning into the Stillshrine of Miriam again-cover the zone three times top to bottom, click my heels together three times, turn around, and *kerpoofle* all my problems are more or less solved.

Be wery wery quiet! I'm hunting wabbits!

[Lynx]

Lynx: When I was playing through the storyline the first time, I was a lot less harsh than I am now because I just assumed certain things were going to happen. I don't mean specific events, but I thought that everything would be tied together and concluded by the end. That doesn't happen in FFXII.

I will be very interested to see what you think once you get finished.

see but the thing is im not expecting much. i dont really see a love story happening which im kinda happy about because not everything in this world has to be a love story. theres a few things i hope they make clear at the end of the game but i have a feeling most of them will be cleared up in the story itself. with how good i think the game is now itd have to be an unbeliveably horrible ending for me to not like this game. also i think a lot of ends are tied up throughout the game but are never explained and you have to figure htem out for yourself but i could be wrong ill give you the verdict on that one after i beat the game whgich should be sometime this week depending on how much i have to work.

[atlanteay]

after i finished the game, it felt short. Like i was expecting more but i guess that's where the sequal comes in:rolleyes2 and i just got a DS but yeah... i didn't really expect that much out of it and it certainly didn't bore me to death like FFX did so it's a good game.

[Wolf Kanno]

The ending is beautiful and has a lot of wonderful moments for each character. The final boss fight was interesting but overall, I still go with my original opinion. It is a very good game. Not my personal favorite but it's ranked high in my list of best FFs.

I can only hope that SE put's this level of detail into future titles and cut down on the angst...