could this be the best final fantasy?

[Black Magic Shopkeeper]

The main plot isn't as much about (SPOILER)stopping the empire as it is about restoring Ashe to the throne, even though there is a lot of overlap between those two goals. I think the distinction is that the 'bad guys' are not that really antagonistic, but rather misguided, even though you could make the case that they are the ones on the right side. Rozarria is really only a bit player, and its leader, Al Cid, is played mostly for comic relief. You never get the sense that Dalmasca is caught in the middle of two empires, so that drains some of the tension out of the games final scenes.

The weird part about the last moments of FFXII is that they are set up as personal battles, even though the plot, up to that point, has more of a big picture emphasis. I understand why they had to give evil a face, but I would have liked to have seen them work on setting that up more throughout the plot.

There are a couple of scenes which hint at political behind the scenes stuff ((SPOILER)such as the excellant scene where we find out Vayne has poised his father, and Gabranth is forced to kill Drace), but it never becomes the main focus of the storyline, in my opinion.

Actually, the REAL bug of the game is that the Japanese are pointing with their eyes and elbows at Korea. Vayne is just like Kim Jong Il... The scary son of Kim Il Sung. It's their fear of him and the rest of Korea, basically. In fact, I'm a little scared of them, too. (The one thing I like about Kim Jong Il is that he's rumored to be the biggest Daffy Duck fan ever to exist. hehe.) I'm guessing that maybe Square Enix decided their fear of the future is a good subject to mold around and stuff into a game. I just hope that if this is true, the Koreans don't catch on.

Also, the humor of FFXII is VERY Japanese. And since Japanese humor is kind of like Irish humor, I get to laugh at it too. Bully for me.

[Renmiri]

Actually, the REAL bug of the game is that the Japanese are pointing with their eyes and elbows at Korea. Vayne is just like Kim Jong Il... The scary son of Kim Il Sung. It's their fear of him and the rest of Korea, basically. In fact, I'm a little scared of them, too. (The one thing I like about Kim Jong Il is that he's rumored to be the biggest Daffy Duck fan ever to exist. hehe.) I'm guessing that maybe Square Enix decided their fear of the future is a good subject to mold around and stuff into a game. I just hope that if this is true, the Koreans don't catch on.

Maybe... I do see some Nethicite / atomic energy similarities.

... i know that when it comes to books and maybe some video games i have not yet played that politics are done to death in them...

by the way i in no way consider myself of high intelligents so dont think i was trying to put myself above anyone...

You sounded that way... Which for someone who does read books, and a lot of them, wasn't very pleasant to hear... But you didn't mean it that way so no offense taken.

This argument that FFXII only appeals to "the more intelligent crowd" has been making the rounds lately. I find it funny because even if you don't read books, if you read your history or at least watched some old or recent movies you can't really say it is a "new" plot.

The Roman Empire had a Senate AND an Emperor, which made for some pretty dicey political situations. The Emperor couldn't rule doing all HE wanted and the Senate was always worried that the Emperor would turn into a dictator / King. One of their most powerful emperors, Julius Caesar was getting tired of the Senate's meddling and also really didn't trust his older son Brutus so apparently he was planing to close the Senate and give the throne to his younger son Caesarius. The boy who was pretty partial to the queen of a conquered land and didn't care much for war (her name was Cleopatra). Brutus got wind of this and killed Caesar, his own father. Sounds familiar ? Sure you probably saw a rerun of an old movie about Caesar and Cleopatra but also (SPOILER)It describes Vayne, his dad, Larsa, Ashe and the Archadian Senate almost to the T, does it not ? The only twist that FFXII "removed" is that Ashe is not dating Vayne's father and Larsa isn't her kid, whereas in history Cleopatra was dating Caesar and Caesarius was her kid with him

What about twin brothers Louis and Pierre (?), one evil and bent on power gathering and the other very nice and heroic. Louis was so evil that he made sure Pierre spent years locked in a dungeon, as a traitor of the State. Pierre was forced to use an iron mask so no one knew Louis was his twin brother.
Sounds familiar ? Yes, it is a recent Leonardo di Caprio movie but it is also (SPOILER)Almost exactly the Basch / Noah story (a tiny detail inverted on XII: Gabranth/Noah who is the evil one is the twin who uses the "iron mask". But Bosch rotted in a dungeon ad was accused of treason while Noah was living the good life

I also see some "Lawrence of Arabia" parallels with (SPOILER)Larsa's plot: A "son of the Empire" gets together with the conquered people and tries to help them regain their power, fighting side by side with them

In summary, you guys better rephrase "FFXII only appeals to the more intelligent crowd" to " FFXII has a strong appeal to the young FF players who just got politically aware" cause to anyone else it is not new, quite the opposite, it is a very old story being told for millennia by many good writers and story tellers.

[LazarCotoron]

All of Matsuno's games will appeal to those of us who enjoy history. Now, I can offer valid debate that people who enjoy, and consequently, learn about history are 'more intelligent' than those who don't, but I won't bother going there because it's all that much more funny when the rubes take us to hell and look around saying "OMG what have we done, this has never happened before..." YEAH it has. It happened dozens of times, over and over again, and you don't get it because you don't read your damn history.

As for the whole 'nuclear threat' / nethicite' paralell... Maybe you haven't played experienced much of the Japanese culture, but they sorta' make it a point to say "you bastards dropped two nukes on us and it wasn't nice at all!" at about every opportunity they get in their pop culture. Ever seen the old Bahamut summons that make mushroom clouds appear?

[Wolf Kanno]

I wouldn't say it's for young people who just got "politically aware" I'm certain a good chunk of them are there but I would say it's more for the "mature crowd".

By "mature" though, I mean that the game revolves around real life themes. Resources, petty politics, WMD's, and countries caught in the middle of super powers. It's not about saving the world or rescuing girls hailing from an advanced civilization. The drama of FFXII is steeped in reality, well until Giruvegan, but mostly reality.

I agree that there are better political stories, FFT definetly has a wonderful and deep political story, if you can get past the shoddy translation.

I go with my feelings though that FFXII is truly a breath of fresh air for the series. Something dark and gritty, that broke alot of RPG conventions (mostly for the better).

[Renmiri]

... the whole 'nuclear threat' / nethicite' paralell... Maybe you haven't played experienced much of the Japanese culture, but they sorta' make it a point to say "you bastards dropped two nukes on us and it wasn't nice at all!" at about every opportunity they get in their pop culture. Ever seen the old Bahamut summons that make mushroom clouds appear?

Aye, Vegnagun on X-2 was pretty much the same paralel.

And the japanese are correct, dropping two nukes on civilian targets wasn't "nice" at all. It might have been necessary, though I seriously question that, but in the end I'm just glad I don't get to make those kinds of decisions because I would never be able to live with myself if I did something remotely similar, justified or not!

And therein lies the "downer" of FFXII political plot to me: It reminds me way too much of stuff I'd rather forget for a few blissful moments of gameplay. Like the fact that our "Lord Vayne" is a lot loonier and a lot LESS intelligent than the one in the game and there is no Ashe, Larsa, Basch and other heros around trying to stop him

[LazarCotoron]

And therein lies the "downer" of FFXII political plot to me: It reminds me way too much of stuff I'd rather forget for a few blissful moments of gameplay. Like the fact that our "Lord Vayne" is a lot loonier and a lot LESS intelligent than the one in the game and there is no Ashe, Larsa, Basch and other heros around trying to stop him

I don't think dropping nuclear devices on anything could ever, in any conceivable notion of the word, be considered 'nice', 'friendly', 'neighborly', or even 'just barely tolerating your presence'. I do wonder that if the worst case scenario of the time-that if we let them surrender without a show of unstoppable force-would've happened. If you're unfamilar, there was an idea running around that suggested every Japanese man would commit ritualistic suicide for failing his country. There's no way to say it would've-or would not have happened.

As for leaving real life behind when you sit down to play a game... Sometimes, it can be hard. When I was growing up, they talked a lot about gamers disassociating reality with video games-that we were losing touch with the idea that people really die because you can die as many times as you want in a video game 'without consequence', and that you can kill the same guy over and over again 'without consequence'. And these statements and feelings were coming from people that didn't really care to discern between something like Doom and FFIX.

I don't deal with this at all anymore, since I no longer live in that house with people who have such uninformed views. But for a long time, I had disassociate reality from my games. You shouldn't need to disassociate it either way, but we live in a f*çked up world full of batsh!t psychos who think it's their right to do whatever to whoever because they have an opinion rather than attempt to talk it out.

I'm not a peace person, and it's because people don't like to solve the simple problems with words. Someone has some damn idea in their head that they're right and everyone who disagrees with them is not only wrong, but is actively out to hurt that person. FFXII really taps that. After all, that's what the struggle over the Nethicite is about, really. It's about two strong views vying for position over one another. And really, both of them are out not to prove that their view is right-hell, neither of them will even consider a diplomacy table. They're out to destroy the opposing view.

FFXII is the best game because its taken the things that are going on and put them into a format that makes them obvious to everyone. Being the best and being pretty though... Those are very different things, indeed.

[Renmiri]

...that's what the struggle over the Nethicite is about, really. It's about two strong views vying for position over one another. And really, both of them are out not to prove that their view is right-hell, neither of them will even consider a diplomacy table. They're out to destroy the opposing view.

FFXII is the best game because its taken the things that are going on and put them into a format that makes them obvious to everyone. Being the best and being pretty though... Those are very different things, indeed.

You make some excellent points. I had not considered the "education" aspect of XII but it is there in spades and is very important. I'm still from last century where we learned those things in books :rolleyes2

And the point about not even giving diplomacy a chance is sooo current! Why I can name you a current war that started just because the guy in power was in a hurry to be a "war Pres'unit" and look cool on military fatigues... He never bothered with diplomacy, making only token efforts to pretend he did.

And that saps the fun of my afternoon, remembering that dunce is still "Pres'unit" and has a red button with access to half of the nukes in our world within inches of his itchy fingers

Meh... My mom's generation lived 50 years of cold war, hopefully we will live 50 more of "dumb war"...

[Lynx]

... i know that when it comes to books and maybe some video games i have not yet played that politics are done to death in them...

by the way i in no way consider myself of high intelligents so dont think i was trying to put myself above anyone...

You sounded that way... Which for someone who does read books, and a lot of them, wasn't very pleasant to hear... But you didn't mean it that way so no offense taken.

This argument that FFXII only appeals to "the more intelligent crowd" has been making the rounds lately. I find it funny because even if you don't read books, if you read your history or at least watched some old or recent movies you can't really say it is a "new" plot.

sorry about the misunderstanding ill choose how i say things more carefully

as far as it saying its not really a new plot is true but i mean come on depending how you look at it every final fantasy plot has been told every game for that matter.

looking at FFXII in the sense thats its a war and a group of rebels are trying to get there queen her thrown back has been done.

now look at FFVIII a love story where besides fighting for there love theyre fighting to save the planet its been done in sci fi movies before possibly books but then again i dont read much.

same goes with the rest of the series breaking it down to a sense of only looking at whats on the surface everything has been done before.

but then with FFXII you throw in nethecite, espers, 6 characters with quite the back storys and you got a pretty original idea worth checking out.

same goes for FFVIII throw together GF's, sorcerers, elone and you have quite the original idea. and same goes for the rest of them lookingon the surface most arent that original but if you break the story down you can see how complex and original each final fantasy is.

[Wenco]

Is Final Fantasy 12 the best Final Fantasy?

I'll say "no".

Don't get me wrong though, the game is easily my favorite. People here have already addressed what I don't like about the storyline. While I like the cast of characters, most of the plot is pretty stale. The story isn't really all that interesting until the final phases of the game.

To me, it seemed like:

Get stone--->Long ass dungeon--->Do something with stone acquired--->Special Event---->Repeat with variation on something relating to the stone.

I was hoping for more political intrigue or some sort of offbeat surprise but I was never rewarded with either of those things.

The cast of characters were great though. I liked everyone for the most part. I even liked Vaan; something I thought was impossible.

I'll say Final Fantasy 7 and 4 had better stories.

However, Final Fantasy 12 had one hell of a world. Environments have f'ing weather changes and there are lots of secret areas that can be treaded upon. Characters wear the weapons you equip them with and are even included in cutscenes at certain times. The cities have so much going for them as well.

Am I the only one who uses the game camera when I go inside of homes and facilities to look at all of the attention to detail in them?

One can tell that Square Enix put a lot of love into this game.

While I think this game may not be the best FF title ever, I certainly do think it is the best Final Fantasy on the PS2. (And yeah...I thought FFX was an okay game.)

[Renmiri]

Am I the only one who uses the game camera when I go inside of homes and facilities to look at all of the attention to detail in them?

One can tell that Square Enix put a lot of love into this game.

I did and do. Yes, FFXII IS incredible and amazing for the depth of detail it goes into!

Little things, like at Paramina rift, if Fran is your party leader you can see she slides and loses footing on the ice due to her high heels (I almost expected her to land on her ass ) while Vaan and the others don't. Or how delicately and intricately designed the fiends are even during battle scenes. Same for each and every place yo go, including shops and walking around the streets. Or how you can get sun glare in your "camera". Or the candle light reflecting on the metal decorations at the Stillshrine of Mirian.

FFXII world design rocks my socks!

While I think this game may not be the best FF title ever, I certainly do think it is the best Final Fantasy on the PS2. (And yeah...I thought FFX was an okay game.)

Sacrilege! Yevon forgive you my child, Ye know not of what you speak

[gdguy230]

I personally think this one isn't so great. the story line was lacking. It didn't really progress well, not that much intrigue. Pretty much what I expected to happen happened. Never really got into the story until the end.

No waterga? No earth? A lot of things are weak against both but didn't have good enough magics to use against the weaknesses. Seems like the main focus was the battle system and that was it.

loved the gameplay however. just need a little more work on story and other loose ends and all would be good.

[Renmiri]

I personally think this one isn't so great. the story line was lacking. It didn't really progress well, not that much intrigue. Pretty much what I expected to happen happened. Never really got into the story until the end.

No waterga? No earth? A lot of things are weak against both but didn't have good enough magics to use against the weaknesses. Seems like the main focus was the battle system and that was it.

loved the gameplay however. just need a little more work on story and other loose ends and all would be good.

QFT

I liked the graphics nd world design too, but music, story and character are way too weak!