If Tifa and Aerith fought...

[Ryushikaze]

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia.

Prove it.

And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.

Because it IS wrong. The cetra are not unique in their ability to listen to the planet.

Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?

He wasn't wearing it in his hair.

Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.

Doesn't matter. LO is a third person omniscient. It is canon.
I'd also like to see your source on 'Only Sephiroth can wield it.' This should be good. Especially since with a name like Masamune, it was almost certainly forged by the wutai, and not for Sephiroth.
By the way, how is any of this relevant to the point- and not my analogy- of battle equipability relevant to plot usability?

The following evidence comes from the site http://au.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html. It was taken from a translation of the Ultimania guide. My thanks to you, Ryu Kaze.

**The White Materia: Holy** (005.3B)
The only means of opposing Meteor, the Ultimate White Magic was passed down amongst the Ancients. It is said that when an Ancient learns of Holy in the Forgotten Capital, prays at the water altar and their mind then links to the Planet, Holy is thereby put into operation. Passed down through the Ancients' generations, the White Materia came to Aerith from her mother, Ifalna, and she kept it hidden in a ribbon in her hair.

How exactly Holy applies its power once invoked and in operation is not
definite. It is simply known that "all that is bad for the Planet will
disappear."

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
As evidence of the Planet accepting Aerith's prayer, the White Materia laying on the water bed shines a pale green color. However, Holy's movement was being held back by the wicked will of Sephiroth, who had called Meteor.
------------------------
[Analysis: This section confirms what many who played the game believed: that Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to the City of the Ancients -- to which she felt herself being drawn -- and learned of it there, the same way that Bugenhagen later would.]
------------------------

Which doesn't actually prove "Only the Cetra may use said Overide/Abort", and completely fails to address the argument that if it is, they are the stupidest people in existence.
I also have to disagree with Ryu here. It does NOT actually confirm his conclusion. It actually does not mention her knowledge of Holy before being at the city. Now, it does not disprove that she was unaware before arrival, but it is not conclusive.
At best, it supports the concept that Aerith didn't know the will of the planet until she arrived at the altar.

Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.

Actually, he learned how to use the black materia by reading the instructions inside the temple of the ancients. Though even if your assertion here is true (which actually contains no evidence, despite you saying it does), it bears out MY argument, that it is the knowledge of the use, and nothing else, that allows one to use Materia.
And the Planet formed an intricate hewn temple temple staffed by the lingering conciousnesses of dead Cetra devoted to staffing the place. Riiiight. Now pull the other one. It's got bells on.

The chance of Deathblow working may be low, but if she uses it many times, which she can thanks to GG, the chance of it working just once rises exponentially.

And it only needs to be used once on Tifa's end for her to win.
Tifa wins init, uses deathblow, Aerith doesn't even get a chance to GG. That's without the sneak attack being put into play.

Wrong again. Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she only knew what the Planet was telling her.

And? Even if true, how does this go contrary to the concept of "Do not put my friends in unnecessary danger"?

Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it. We've got a secondary source and Aerith, who you, by the way, are now indirectly claiming didn't know what she was talking about when she sent the message to Cloud.

Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

[DrthTater]

Aerith would win hands down. Being a zombie and all.


BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAINNSSSSSSSSS!

[Firo Volondé]

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia.

Prove it.

I don't need to, because you still haven't offered any evidence that anything quoted from Wikipedia is wrong.

And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.

Because it IS wrong. The cetra are not unique in their ability to listen to the planet.

In the statement you're trying to disprove, "unique ability" means that no non-Cetra in FF7 is born with the ability to listen to the Planet. Name one non-Cetra that was born with the ability to hear the Planet. Please.

Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?

He wasn't wearing it in his hair.

Exactly. And how did it get in Aeris' hair? Ifalna gave it to her. Why not give it to someone like Bugenhagen? Because she knew that only Cetra could use it.

Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.

Doesn't matter. LO is a third person omniscient. It is canon.
I'd also like to see your source on 'Only Sephiroth can wield it.' This should be good. Especially since with a name like Masamune, it was almost certainly forged by the wutai, and not for Sephiroth.
By the way, how is any of this relevant to the point- and not my analogy- of battle equipability relevant to plot usability?

My source is the people you mentioned in this quote:

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?

Also, the instruction manual says "His giant sword which only he can handle". Masamune is the name of his sword because almost every Final Fantasy game has a sword named Masamune. It is not meant to have a history behind it. If I'm wrong, and if it was forged by the wutai, most likely Shinra authorised the sword for Sephiroth's use. It is not relevant, you brought up the Masamune using the above statement.

Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.

Actually, he learned how to use the black materia by reading the instructions inside the temple of the ancients. Though even if your assertion here is true (which actually contains no evidence, despite you saying it does), it bears out MY argument, that it is the knowledge of the use, and nothing else, that allows one to use Materia.
And the Planet formed an intricate hewn temple temple staffed by the lingering conciousnesses of dead Cetra devoted to staffing the place. Riiiight. Now pull the other one. It's got bells on.

Mr. Game Script?

Cloud picked up the Black Materia.
Cloud: Mmm? Can you guys use it?
Aeris: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power
to use it.
Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?
Aeris: That's right. One person's power alone won't do it. Somewhere
special. Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The
Promised Land!!
Cloud: The Promised Land!! No, but...
Aeris: Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.
Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.
Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I
became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients. And soon, I will create the future.

Two things I worked out from that passage:
1) The Black Materia can't be used unless you have great Spiritual energy. No one person has enough. You need access to plenty of the planet's energy, a.k.a. the Lifestream.
2) Sephiroth gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients from travelling the Lifestream. That is when he started his plan to use the Black Materia, which was what I meant to say. Note my post never says he learned to use it in the Lifestream.

Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it.

I believe it was you who said:

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.

Name one other Materia that does that? I'd call that special activation.

Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

Yes she was. She sent that message, according to Cloud's words, "after I handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth", so even if she wasn't there, she was still being led by WM.

[MJN SEIFER]

Aeris was there much longer. It was a joint Effort between her and the WM. She was "Chosen" so to speak.

It's very similar to how Sephiroth was situated in the Crater - the only difference is that he doesn't have the materia yet.


This is all I'll say for now as I'll make the thread go off topic if I do.

[sir helix]

i thank cloud should bang em both
yeehaa

[Ryushikaze]

I don't need to, because you still haven't offered any evidence that anything quoted from Wikipedia is wrong.

And you have provided no evidence that your claim is correct. Burden of Proof and such.
And would you like to know why Wiki is worthless as an authoritative source? 1- It's a third hand source, at best. 2- Anyone can edit it. Leading to 3- When controversy arises the moderation staff is more concerned with compromising and 'non partisan reporting' than with actual accuracy. Besides all this, if you want to tell me your third party source is accurate, show me the first party passage they are citing.

In the statement you're trying to disprove, "unique ability" means that no non-Cetra in FF7 is born with the ability to listen to the Planet. Name one non-Cetra that was born with the ability to hear the Planet. Please.

An interesting, if ultimately worthless, goalpost shift, since the statement doesn't actually say that. It doesn't even MENTION the word birth. Nice try though. Don't do it again.

Exactly. And how did it get in Aeris' hair? Ifalna gave it to her. Why not give it to someone like Bugenhagen? Because she knew that only Cetra could use it.

Or because Aerith was her daughter, she gave it to her in an emergency, and/or didn't know Bugenhagen. I mean seriously. Your non sequitors are getting more and more ridiculous. Care to provide evidence for your assertion? Didn't think so.
Ilfana, BTW

My source is the people you mentioned in this quote:

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?

So your "source" is mindless fanboys. Check.

Also, the instruction manual says "His giant sword which only he can handle". Masamune is the name of his sword because almost every Final Fantasy game has a sword named Masamune. It is not meant to have a history behind it. If I'm wrong, and if it was forged by the wutai, most likely Shinra authorised the sword for Sephiroth's use. It is not relevant, you brought up the Masamune using the above statement.

I brought it up as an example of people having stupid unfounded brainbugs, like the WM brainbug. I'd also like to note that, again, you've cited a 'source' that is directly opposed by the canon, and the canon wins that battle.
Addendum: "It's not supposed to have a history" is begging author's intent, and means you Fail Suspension of Disbelief 101. Though it does bring up the question- Why would Wutai build a sword for the star soldier of their enemy in war?
Please do not use this aside as an excuse to avoid answering the primary point, as you did before.

-snip the game script-
Two things I worked out from that passage:

1) The Black Materia can't be used unless you have great Spiritual energy. No one person has enough. You need access to plenty of the planet's energy, a.k.a. the Lifestream.

Well, grab me a Mako reactor and let's cast us a deathmissile.

2) Sephiroth gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients from travelling the Lifestream. That is when he started his plan to use the Black Materia, which was what I meant to say. Note my post never says he learned to use it in the Lifestream.

Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients.

QED. Again, however, still bears out my "It is knowledge, not genetics, that allows one to use the damn thing"

Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

Show me some evidence, instead. You claim Meteor and Holy require special activation. Prove it.

I believe it was you who said:

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.

Name one other Materia that does that? I'd call that special activation.

A big glowing Neon "CAST ME" isn't special activation, though I will admit I was too anthropomorphic in my original description.
Alright, let's put this simply- the White Materia is an OVERRIDE/ABORT device. That means its purpose it to counteract the Launch of our superweapon, the Black Materia. It's like the shut down code for a missile launch. If you insert it before the missile is ready, the system still processes it, but since the conditions are already where the shut down is supposed to arrive at, no overall effect occurs. However, once the Black Materia is loosed, you now have the preparation for missile launch in place, with the missile on the table. From this point on, up intil the launch of the missile (and possibly even a few seconds afterwards, before it gets enough thrust), the shut down code will work, since its purpose to change a ready state to an abort state, is now possible to be completed. Holy wanting to be cast, in this analogy, is the equivalent computer AI saying "XX:XX until launch. Please insert shut down code A32"
To use another example of why Using Holy in the wrong situation results in nothing- You cast revive on a living party member. You succesfully cast, but nothing happens, because that party member is already in the state revive is supposed to restore them to.

Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

But she wasn't at the city of the ancients when she sent the message. So she's not been told that information yet, by your argument.

Yes she was. She sent that message, according to Cloud's words, "after I handed the Black Materia to Sephiroth", so even if she wasn't there, she was still being led by WM.

Can you even keep consistent with your argument? You said she didn't know anything about Holy til she was at the city of the ancients. I point out that the message was sent before she arrived. And now you're saying that she knew because the White Materia was leading her, despite just a moment ago, in WHAT I QUOTED, you were saying she knew nothing til she arrived.

Aeris was there much longer. It was a joint Effort between her and the WM. She was "Chosen" so to speak.

It's very similar to how Sephiroth was situated in the Crater - the only difference is that he doesn't have the materia yet.

This is all I'll say for now as I'll make the thread go off topic if I do.

So make another Topic and provide some evidence for your claim. Please note the importance of the second half of the first sentence.

[f f freak]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

[Carl the Llama]

well obviously someone made a thread with Aerith in it, dont you know if it has Aerith in it it always ends up someone bashing her, and we the loyal Aerith fans have to defend her.

[Ryushikaze]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.

well obviously someone made a thread with Aerith in it, dont you know if it has Aerith in it it always ends up someone bashing her, and we the loyal Aerith fans have to defend her.

That you view it as a matter of defense of bashing rather than setting the record straight regarding ignorance is somewhat telling.

[Firo Volondé]

How did this debate about Holy start? This is just going way off topic.

Agreed.

I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.

Frankly, that's the only point I care about. This argument is going down too many side-paths. So let's keep it nice and simple. Aerith was the one who was a threat in Sephiroth's opinion, and in conjunction with Holy, she saved the planet. Remember at the end of the game, when Holy couldn't destroy Meteor, the Lifestream (led by Aeirth and others) rose up to help Holy destroy Meteor.

That you view it as a matter of defense of bashing rather than setting the record straight regarding ignorance is somewhat telling.

I consider it the latter.

[Ryushikaze]

I made a comment that Aerith sans Holy was not a threat to Sephiroth's initial plot. Some people took it personally.

Frankly, that's the only point I care about. This argument is going down too many side-paths. So let's keep it nice and simple. Aerith was the one who was a threat in Sephiroth's opinion, and in conjunction with Holy, she saved the planet. Remember at the end of the game, when Holy couldn't destroy Meteor, the Lifestream (led by Aeirth and others) rose up to help Holy destroy Meteor.

Concession accepted on all my above points you did not address.
And no. Holy was the threat. Without it, Aerith was far less, as Sephi would be minused Meteor.
And saying "Aerith saved the planet" at the end of the game is such a shafting of the innumerable others who helped push and guide the tendrils of the lifstream that it's not even funny.

I consider it the latter.

Well, you seem to be doing a bit of a poor job of it.

[Levian]

Knock it off, blitz_king10 and Ryushikaze. If you want to argue about something besides the topic, please keep it in a PM. Also, quit the personal attacks. There's no need for that.

[Crossblades]

Let's be serious, Tifa would pound Aerith into the ground.

More like pound her straight to Hell

[MasterX]

Yeah, this is AERIS versing TIFA, so Holy can let the fight happen without giving a care. This personal feud is way, way, WAY beneath Holy, so let's not take Holy into account in future posts. Thank you. I will also include that I will exclude any Materia, not just Holy. We will not take speed into account unless it equals one another. We will also assume that attack/defense or any other important status is also rivaled. We'll also assume they have their final limit breaks and they have full limit bars, health and perfect status. The effect of weapons/armour will not be taken into account.

I may be an Aeris fan, but I see how Tifa can have the upper-hand, have 7 consecutive attacks on her hands. Yes, one attack after another would heavily damage Aeris and possibly KOing her. IF, and I do mean if, Tifa happens to go first and pulls up criticals or WOW! throughout her Limit Break.

That's how you Tifa fans plan to side with Tifa on this one, but I will explain the other possibilities during their duel.

Great Gospel has many effects, such as full ressurection of any lost HP/MP and grants temparary invincibility to the party, in this case, Aeris. If Tifa were to not succeed in her attempt to take down Aeris, it would be game for Aeris. Let me explain.

Assuming Tifa DOESN'T take out Aeris with her fancy combo, whether it be a row of misses (yes, Tifa fans, that could happen) or just happens to ALMOST KO her, Aeris can fully revive herself with the Great Gospel, giving herself oppurtunity to put in attack after attack after attack. Tifa can try and defend, but this won't change the fact that Aeris will win. If Tifa gets hit enough, she'll gain another Final Heaven to barrage Aeris with and can either almost knock her out or do next to nothing, what with the MISS included in her roulette (except in Beat Rush). If history repeats itself, Aeris will gain her precious Limit Break and repeat, therefore placing my utmost faith in our holy Ancient.

Can't call me a liar, because I'm actually using facts to determine the end result, unlike you guys who're sayin' "Aeris will summon Holy to crush Tifa!" or "Tifa will pound Aeris all the way to Hell." For shame to those people. If you see ANY flaws in my presentation, let me know.

[Pure Aerisbeauty7]

Aeris would win. She has strong healing and protecting magic. She also has the White Materia.