For you launchies, a month later

[Omni-Odin]

FFXII story = Mass pile of crap
Gameplay = great
Sidequests = Good, but a little repetitive
Characters = They could all commit suicide and I wouldn't care

I'll still play it for the sidequests and just to say I have, but I am 125 hours into it and I'd like to get my money back for this mediocre game.

[Raistlin]

You spent 125 hours on a game, and you don't like it enough to want your money back?

[Marshall Banana]

It's not fair for someone to justify that FFXII is any less of a Final Fantasy (or downright horrible) by comparing it to FFX alone. It also seems nitpicky and biased.

Actually, everything about FFXII is great, except maybe the beginning and ending are so amazing that everything in between seems a little dull.

[Roto13]

You spent 125 hours on a game, and you don't like it enough to want your money back?

Really.

[Wolf Kanno]

You're right about the Jecht part, I completely forgot about that part.

No, I do have serious issues with the plot of FFX (It does have to do with the cast as you observed, but if you think about it, FFX is more character driven than plot driven), but I don't want to stray farther from the subject of this thread anymore than I have. As for characters, I don't care for FFX's cast either but it's not like I've absolutely loved every cast member from previous games. There are always a few duds. Aslo, just because I don't like a character doesn't mean it's solely cause they are not written well. I actually like Lulu though I never felt like she was justified being there. On the other hand, I feel Wakka was a well written character, but I just don't care for him.

I actually like the whole cast of FFXII, though I agree that certain characters could have been expanded on more, but I don't feel the character's lacked depth. This is just how I felt about it. Honestly, my three favorite characters just happen to be the only three the plot really delves into (Balthier, Basch, and Lady Ashe). I feel that Vaan's story was resolved early in the game and his declaration of "not running away and getting to the bottom of everthing" is being told by him becoming more of an observer. The road to maturity is not only measured in actions but understanding the truth of the world. If you notice, Vaan's dialogue becomes more mature as the story progresses. He still says something stupid or ignorant but it's to remind us that he's still a child, and still has a long road ahead of him.

As for the story. I never felt like it was "telegraphed to me" or dumped onto me. I didn't even think about it till Renmiri pointed it out. So it's not true for everyone that it does that. The story is just told differently, some like it, others don't.

The world is cohesive. We have more info about this small area of the world than we do about entire FF worlds. True, for all we know, Ivalice is only the size of Australia or perhaps even as large as Asia, but it proves that we don't need a whole world. I think of FFXII's Ivalice to be, historically speaking, the equivalent of the days of Alexander the Great. Macedonia versus Persia. Sure,there are other countries and civilizations in the world; but in western history, they were the two most powerful nations in the world at the time. The other countries don't matter cause they are probably unaware of what's goin on in that part of the world, let alone that these countries even exist.

But I feel this way about (sorry to bring FFX up again) Spira as well. It seemed pretty small for an FF world, so I assumed that Spira was only a small part of the world. This is not a bad thing. If the Suikoden games have proven anything, it's that epic stories do not have to be relegated to "saving the world". A story can be just as "epic" as long as the heroes are fighting for something that means the world to them.

[Renmiri]

I'll admit that FFXII telegraphs the plot a few times but what I meant about

explaining every damn nuance in the game to be called "storytelling" or a "well written plot"

concerend the idea that we have to explain every place we go like FFX did. Just about everytime you entered a new area, a cutscene would start where Yuna or Wakka would explain....

Leave the tour till after we beat Sin" ..

A matter of taste then. I hated the cards with back-story and loved Yuna, Lulu or Maechem telling it. But this wasn't my main beef. I hate when writers "telegraph the plot" or actors do the same in a movie. (Like those pretty Hollywood boys who say "I'm angry" because they can't make a convincing angry face unless they are getting upstaged by a rival in real life )

As for the storyline....If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact..

I didn't It was quite a shock to me too.

I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX...

Well I do admit being an FFX fanatic but I honestly did try to see FFXII on it's own merits. And saw a lot of good things, writing just isn't one of them.

Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

I never said that!

Quite the opposite, I agree with you 100%, the world design on XII is fantastic and perhaps - heresy!!! - even better than my beloved X There, I admitted it. The areas, the culture, the races, the religion, foodstuffs, fiends and Mist / Jagd details are just so rich and detailed!

Which makes the weak story quite glaring to me. And makes me dislike FFXII story and characters more compared to it's own good areas than compared to X or any other game.

The game is very uneven. Wonderful in some hard to make areas, lame in other areas that SE used to excel at. It doesn't live up to it's potential, and by such easily fixable reasons.

With such outstanding graphics and such a rich world, and such a fun and well designed battle system it is just a crime to have XII spoiled by the lame storytelling, unmemorable music and weak Esper system. A pity and a crime. Why didn't SE pop up a bit more $$$ to get better scene writers ? It seems to me it is much harder t o have all those wonderfully detailed graphics and world design than it is to find someone with more than junior high level writing.

It's not fair for someone to justify that FFXII is any less of a Final Fantasy (or downright horrible) by comparing it to FFX alone. It also seems nitpicky and biased.

True for X or any other game, in the context of this thread. There is one about "Is XII the best FF game ever ?" where the idea is exactly that: compared to other games, where do you put FFXII at ?

I said it above, my main beef with XII is comparing it to itself. It has the makings of "the best game ever" but doesn't deliver, and what's worse, it falls short on areas that SE mastered long ago. A true pity.

....except maybe the beginning and ending are so amazing that everything in between seems a little dull.

And you don't get to play on those "so amazing" parts. It is just dumped at you and you have to sit still dying to explore and to move your characters and be condemned to just be listening to a movie instead. See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?

[Marshall Banana]

See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?

Nope, I was more than satisfied. <3

[Wolf Kanno]

A matter of taste then. I hated the cards with back-story and loved Yuna, Lulu or Maechem telling it. But this wasn't my main beef. I hate when writers "telegraph the plot" or actors do the same in a movie. (Like those pretty Hollywood boys who say "I'm angry" because they can't make a convincing angry face unless they are getting upstaged by a rival in real life )

Actually, outside of that one Vaan scene, I still, never really felt like the plot was "telegraphed". Also, I felt FFXII has done a better job using body language and facial expressions than other games. But, to each their own I guess

As for the storyline....If the player had been kept in the dark the scene would have had a greater impact..

I didn't It was quite a shock to me too.

Really? I felt it was blatanly obvious after you watch the opening camp scene and later after Yuna acquired her first summon. The game just kept screaming it out to me...

I wrote my feelings on FFX to get this point across. That and I am sick and tired of fanboys and fangirls doing side by side comparisons of FFXII against FFX...

Well I do admit being an FFX fanatic but I honestly did try to see FFXII on it's own merits. And saw a lot of good things, writing just isn't one of them.

I just want more critiques of FFXII alone with examples from within the game. I hate when people compare their games to their favorites. It was a pet peeve I picked up after FFVII came out and everything had to be compared to it (It's my other least favorite FF, though I have come to terms with it in recent years.) FFXII, isn't even my favorite but I do feel that most complaints are more about opinion and personal taste as opposed to the game just being poorly done.

Though I still do not understand how you feel as though FFXII is not a cohesive world. We have more details about this game's world than any other in the series. Even more amazing is how everything actually blends together in the game. About 98% of the game's world has a logical reason for being there.

I never said that!

Quite the opposite, I agree with you 100%, the world design on XII is fantastic and perhaps - heresy!!! - even better than my beloved X There, I admitted it. The areas, the culture, the races, the religion, foodstuffs, fiends and Mist / Jagd details are just so rich and detailed!

Which makes the weak story quite glaring to me. And makes me dislike FFXII story and characters more compared to it's own good areas than compared to X or any other game.

The game is very uneven. Wonderful in some hard to make areas, lame in other areas that SE used to excel at. It doesn't live up to it's potential, and by such easily fixable reasons.

With such outstanding graphics and such a rich world, and such a fun and well designed battle system it is just a crime to have XII spoiled by the lame storytelling, unmemorable music and weak Esper system. A pity and a crime. Why didn't SE pop up a bit more $$$ to get better scene writers ? It seems to me it is much harder t o have all those wonderfully detailed graphics and world design than it is to find someone with more than junior high level writing.

First, that comment was meant for Timerk's previous few posts. Sorry for the confusion.:laughing: But the real problem I think you have, is that you need to realize that FFXII is story driven. FFX is a character driven piece. I personally feel it had a lousy cast and that's why I don't care for it's story, and as you have said yourself, it's something I feel SE mastered a long time ago was their ability to create gripping characters and plots.

FFXII is designed to be like the older games (by older we mean pre-FFVI). I began to really think about it as I played, and started to notice how many similarities it had to FFV. I feel it is a story driven piece where the characters are given enough back story and personality to give the player a reason to sympathize with them and enough motivation to see it through. Their personalities are not shown to be as strong cause like the older games, it's a RPG.

Role playing does not mean watching a fully written character with a distinct personality go through his own personal trials and tribulations. If that was the case, movies and books would be role playing as well. Role Playing (in context of RPGs) is about assuming the role of a character. The characters are designed so the player can relate to them and play the game as them. That's why story scenes are carefully written so that the characters should be portraying the feelings of the players themselves. It may explain why I love Lady Ashe so much cause I could feel her personal struggle about gaining and using the nethicite. I could better relate to the scene than just watch Yuna constantly defend her desire to be a summoner cause according to character "it was the right thing to do"

There's a human element to the characters that is difficult to capture. I feel the writer's did it because they allowed us players to finally assume the roles of the characters themselves. Perhaps you never even thought about it this way. Chances are you will not agree. You seem to enjoy the character driven pieces better, nothing is wrong with that, I love character driven stories as well (my favorite FF is a character driven piece in my opinion ) I just don't think FFX was a good one.

And you don't get to play on those "so amazing" parts. It is just dumped at you and you have to sit still dying to explore and to move your characters and be condemned to just be listening to a movie instead. See my point about not including the game player in the story telling ?

FFX was notorious for this...

[Timerk]

I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.

[Wolf Kanno]

I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.

The Mi'hen what? Sorry I can't remeber that place. You'll have to jog my memory...


P.S. I'm being serious, I really don't remember that place. I'm guessing it's from FFX?

[Timerk]

It was the setting of the 'Rikku falls on her butt' scene in X-2.

[Renmiri]

Actually, outside of that one Vaan scene, I still, never really felt like the plot was "telegraphed". Also, I felt FFXII has done a better job using body language and facial expressions than other games. But, to each their own I guess

Aye, facial movement is good like you say. I have only 2 nits to pick about XII graphics and technology: It is slow to load and Vaan's ribs are... ewww!
But the "telegraphing the plot" can be seen all over: The Archadian Senate (SPOILER)pressuring the King and the guy goes and summarizes "you are making me choose between my son and my Kingdom". Well DUH! Baltier telling Ashe (SPOILER)I left because I couldn't stand seeing him like this, Vaan (SPOILER)Forgiving Basch in heartbeat without even asking for details on the story, Fran telling (SPOILER)Her sister that better she tells Mrjim to stay, since she is an exile already

Yuna's attitude was very poignant to me because my nephew Christopher, whom I changed diapers 18 years ago had just shipped to Iraq "because it is the right thing to do" and I just couldn't stand the idea of having him killed there for a war I had serious doubts about and saw a mountain of lies, not the sacred mission he saw. Yuna and Tidus / Rikku were going through the exact same experience. (Chris is still alive BTW, praise be to Yevon )

I just want more critiques of FFXII alone with examples from within the game. I hate when people compare their games to their favorites.... as opposed to the game just being poorly done.

I will admit I did do that, but on another tread. Here in this thread and with me being later in the game too, I found a lot more positive things to say, which made the weak writing all the more glaring.

...the real problem I think you have, is that you need to realize that FFXII is story driven. FFX is a character driven piece. I personally feel it had a lousy cast and that's why I don't care for it's story, and as you have said yourself, it's something I feel SE mastered a long time ago was their ability to create gripping characters and plots.

Perhaps... But cards telling the story ? Or 20 minutes long FMVs ? Not to my taste

I know more about the Mi'hen Highroad than Ivalice.

That ain't right.

Indeed! A bit of Ivalice's story is on the little cards on Bestiary. But not enough and not to my taste. Cards ?!?!? This is Final Fantasy not Mortal Combat! That puts the FFXII is plot centric idea to rest BTW. What center is that that is relegated to little tidbits hidden in a 3rd level menu ?

.FFXII is designed to be like the older games (by older we mean pre-FFVI). I began to really think about it as I played, and started to notice how many similarities it had to FFV.

Can't comment on that, haven't played the older batch yet.

.I feel it is a story driven piece where the characters are given enough back story and personality to give the player a reason to sympathize with them and enough motivation to see it through. Their personalities are not shown to be as strong cause like the older games, it's a RPG.

Role playing does not mean watching a fully written character with a distinct personality go through his own personal trials and tribulations. If that was the case, movies and books would be role playing as well. Role Playing (in context of RPGs) is about assuming the role of a character. The characters are designed so the player can relate to them and play the game as them. That's why story scenes are carefully written so that the characters should be portraying the feelings of the players themselves.

Aye, agreed on the RPG thing. Which is why all the "telegraphing the plot" on XII annoyed me so much. It spoiled that aspect for me. I felt Vaan's feelings were forced on me, I wanted to create my own, based on the story, not have them told to me.

It may explain why I love Lady Ashe so much cause I could feel her personal struggle about gaining and using the nethicite. I could better relate to the scene than just watch Yuna constantly defend her desire to be a summoner cause according to character "it was the right thing to do"

Ashe's inner struggle and personality was just about the only exception to the weak writing and even then a bit of the issue "telegraphed" to my taste. But yes, her character is a bit better done than the rest, no wonder you like it so much!

There's a human element to the characters that is difficult to capture. I feel the writer's did it because they allowed us players to finally assume the roles of the characters themselves. Perhaps you never even thought about it this way. Chances are you will not agree. You seem to enjoy the character driven pieces better

On the contrary. It is my main objection to the characters being "dumped" on us players fully made as it is on XII. I hate it when someone tells me how I should feel

FFX was notorious for this...

I never felt it but then again, we're talking about XII on it's own merits, are we not ?

BTW, I have the Jahara FMV uploaded to Youtube, where you can see Vaan telling us exactly how he feels (to never worry about it again). Have look if you want to revisit that scene (full of spoilers), it has pretty sharp graphics, I lucked out finding a way to rip almost perfect FMV scenes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ya4AMfjLOM

Oh, and Vaan's ribs, my pet peeve with the graphics

[Roto13]

Vaan is my pet peeve with the whole damn game.

[Tavrobel]

Vaan Everything except the Game Over screen is my pet peeve with the whole damn game.

[Wolf Kanno]

First you have to stop with the "dump" the story. I never felt it was really that bad. It's why I can only think of maybe two scenes that did that. I also found neither of them to be annoying. So basically it's an opinion.

Second, we discussed the "cards" as you put it. FFXII doesn't explain every piece of land you enter cause most of it should be common sense if you lived in Ivalice. And before you sight Vaan and Penelo, they did have Migelo and Old Dalan, so they could have known about many of the places in the world. It's a design choice, not poor writing. Besides, very few RPGs ever explain the area's you go too. It's usually just the cave that has what your looking for.

Vaan's ribs... yeah, those are freakish

As for Vaan as a character, he's my least favorite. So I can understand people not liking him. But as for Vaan (SPOILER)not questioning Basch about his brother's death. If you remember correctly, Vaan was present when Gabranth revealed his identity in front of Basch. After Basch explained it was Gabranth who set him up, Vaan pretty much let it go, and had accepted him by the time they met with the resistance in Rabanastre.

As for Ivalice not being well explained... It's all in the beastiry. I know you don't like to read the "cards" but I don't like people giving me a "guided tour". We both just have to accept we have different taste


Also, I can't remember that scene about the Mi'hen road. I could never bring myself to play FFX-2 a second time (but I have played it completely through) I don't even remember it from the first game? Was it the place with the Shoopuf? Or the one that had Chocobos?