Is this stupid or utter genius?

[Setharion]

No its not unreasonable, but this isnt real life...thats the difference. But even at that, you could go and get 100 people and im going to bet that not everyone can do the same things to the same level of achievement either.

Maybe 20 of them are amazing football players, yet out of those 10 15 of them suck at basketball, and then maybe some that are good at football and basketball suck at baseball when those that suck at basketball are good at it. Its just, you arent going to have the same level of talent to the tee.

Whereas in a game like this, you can basically have the same level of talent to the tee. Nothing seperates the characters.

I mean there comes a time when for a game you have to sacrifice having option after option for a quality game. So when it would become a staple that in every rpg from here on out all characters can be the same thing, where does it stop?

Im just old school, and its not like you cant see each aspect of the game when you have restricted skills to certain classes, its just youre going to have it be more unique when so and so character uses this skill being this other guy cant.

I just feel its what makes movies, books, games all go around. If every movie or book or game has every character being able to do the same thing it just makes nothing special anymore, nothing unique.

If im watching Conan The Barbarion and the wizard can go and pick up Conans sword and weild it just as good, and then pass it over to the thief and he can weild it just as good, then whats the point of having Conan anymore, nothing is special about his talents anymore.\

Edit: Btw im loving this game to death for everything else, this is the only downfall in my eyes, just dont want anyone to think im hating on FFXII. I just would of prefered set classes and some skill restrictions.

[LazarCotoron]

No its not unreasonable, but this isnt real life...thats the difference.

And that's precisely my point. It isn't real life, it's a game. And if it's possible (though highly improbable) in real life, then it should be possible in a game.

For what it's worth, I understand what you're saying, and in that regard, I genuinely think FF Tactics is the only game to ever have made genuine differences in your characters. This should be especially true in RPGs, which is ironic since it logically follows that RPGs are where they should be trying harder to pronounce these differences.

I personally feel that to really show off these differences, you need a full scale action game where the warriors really cut loose in melee with arcade fighting game controls and the wizards have a basic attack button, but can cast their powerful spells and do things the warriors can't.

[Setharion]

Yea i know what you mean about it being a game then on the counter why couldnt a mage be just as good of a fighter as a warrior or what not.

But just one more counter to that heh for conversation piece, its like there are certain aspects that still retain realism like Vaan cant just up and fly or cant walk through walls or cant pick mountains and wail them at someone, but even though its a game...why shouldnt he be able too...is what thinking in game means anything is possible.

Like for example, lets take weapon distribution. If there was a sword you were trying to get called Sword of Greatness, and you took your party in to finally get this sword and actually retrieve it. Would the specialness of this sword be there if when you got the sword it would automatically go into every party members inventory and everyone had it and could use it just as good? Or would it be more special if your main warrior has this sword and is a beast with it?

To me thats how i view classes and skills...just is a better sense of accomplishment when one class excels over another and how its used.

To each his own though, but i just would think most people would enjoy more of a set class.

[LazarCotoron]

The point I tried to nail is this here. The Wizard can use the freaking greatsword, but I agree that he shouldn't be able to whip out six hit combos with it.

There's no logical explanation you can't use a weapon if you can lift it. That doesn't make you good with it though, does it.

[Setharion]

Not disagreeing with that one bit, i think thats how it should always be as to defining classes. I just mean that in FFXII it seems that variable isnt taken into account as to being good or bad with it.

There should be options, but paths to take once you choose an option...so if you go down that caster road, limitations should be there as to weaponry.

But either way, the game is kickin my ass with alot of fun, i just hope if they go this route again make it so that you have options but that by end game everyone isnt a clone.

[LazarCotoron]

Absitively.

Like I said... when I look at games that really divided characters up by class well (in the FF line, at least), I look at FF Tactics and, to a lesser extent, FFIX. We can ALSO look at various MMO's that strictly enforce class distinctions, but the way those distinctions are enforced sort've pisses me off. The aforementioned 'I can equip a two handed mace or axe, but for some reason I am incapable of equipping swords of any kind' kind of crap. And going even further, there are too many examples of games where you 'learn' skills by spending in game resources that are ALSO restricted based on what looks like to be a "because I said so" basis. Course, to make that really work, you need to restrict the number of those in game resources much more than FFXII.

Honestly, the customization vs freedom debate is the reason I always go back to table top RPG's. At the very least, I can usually work out reasonable agreements with the GM and other players and end up playing exactly the sort of character I want to play. But y'know, that doesn't work when the GM is a computer that follows set parameters.

[Setharion]

But see i think it boils down to people feeling as if they are being done wrong if a company makes a game and says "warriors are not going to be high end casters, period". Its like thats the rules, like any other game...go back to the world of checkers, monopoly etc...the games had their rules and other games had their rules.

Now i know gaming is a bit different but in a general scheme of things just think of them as a rule that was set by the creator of the game.

Some games are open ended in what can be done with character creation, some are more strict...and as much as i understand the semantics of if someone saying that it makes no sense as a caster why i cant cluch the sword of power or something, but then in the same breath admitting that well they cant do much with it being they are casters. You then have to sit back and think, is it really going to affect the game if just within the rules you simply cant equip a huge sword on casters mainly due to why would they want too, they cant use it nor would want too.

As i said before...heres something i could accept. That at the start of a game everyone has the potential to be anything. But they cant be good at everything.

So if you wanted to be half caster/half swordsman then you will be great at neither but can do a little at both. If you want to be a full blown caster than you are just that and arent going to be able to equip a huge 2 hand axe or anything, but most likely daggers or staves. Straight up swordsman or weaponsmaster, same deal.

This way then it keeps everything into perspective, there is total choice but to keep things interesting there are restrictions on how good you will be if you float off your main course. Which i think is a fine way of keeping to tradtion of the RPG genre.

[LazarCotoron]

Honestly, I think it's just crappy item design. In Final Fantasy, weapons are assigned an arbitrary number that higher means better. Arguably, higher is always better, but the approach is somewhat different.

In FFXII for instance, you can make a caster character really suck at casting by stuffing them in heavy armor. And maybe I'm just too early, but Basch is nothing that resembles a good caster-he'd be lucky to make 'decent' me thinks.

In say D&D though, the game doesn't penalize you because you're a wizard wielding a sword. But in all likelihood, with a maximum of 4 HP (not counting any bonuses you might have) per level, you're going to look really stupid when you go down like a sack of wet flower after that Ogre smacks you the FIRST time.

By the same token, and again, I use D&D because I think it really does this right, a Warrior is not going to use a Wizard's staff. The only thing about the staff that makes it any good at all is the fact that a caster (or those cheating Rogues) can use it to cast spells that are stored in it.

So, when I say it's stupid that you can't wield it because the game says you 'can't', I really mean that. I feel there are much better ways than class restrictions to have players choose to make more focused characters. Honestly, at this point, the restrictions feel like they walked out of a nerds fantasy story about four 'Light Warriors' nearly 20 years ago.

And considering when FFI was made...

[VeloZer0]

I have no problems with everyone being able to learn all skills/augments/magic but I do take issue with the fact that everyone can have everything active at once.

Using V as an example, everyone can master every job. Although mastering all the jobs does increase your Bare character stats equally you can never have all the jobs equipped. You must pick and chose. You can make all your characters clones if you wish, or you can make a properly balanced party.
Hypothetically using this system allows you to use any character you wish for anything, allowing full customization, but still creating a character set up element.

Using a system like XII all your characters very quickly become clones of the best set up unless you deliberately decide to set them up in a different manner because you think it looks cooler. As for them taking quite a while to all become clones, don't make me laugh. Very early in the game you have all the useful augments mastered and the rest of the game is just purchasing equipment skills as you get it and filling up the license board.

[Slothy]

Using a system like XII all your characters very quickly become clones of the best set up unless you deliberately decide to set them up in a different manner because you think it looks cooler. As for them taking quite a while to all become clones, don't make me laugh. Very early in the game you have all the useful augments mastered and the rest of the game is just purchasing equipment skills as you get it and filling up the license board.

Like I said, the only way you're going to make everyone clones is if you deliberately try to make them all clones and spend absurd amounts of time level grinding. I'm level 33 right now with my main party, and 35 hours in. Even using Gold Amulets for the past 5-10 hours to essentially double the amount of license points they get, they don't have all of the augments mastered, and I'm only now starting to come even close to reaching the end of the armour, weapon, and skill sections I planned for each of them. I don't know what your definition of early on in the game is, but most people wouldn't consider it to be 35 hours in. Perhaps relative to the overall length of the game you could say it's still fairly early, but I'd estimate I'm still a good 10 hours or more from being near the end of the skills I plan on my characters learning. You can't honestly expect me to believe that's very early in the game can you? Then again, I don't spend rediculous amounts of time level grinding like I'm sure some people do.

[VeloZer0]

I have no idea on the time, but I had most of what I wanted by the time I got to Raithwall's Tomb and I didn't level all that much. As for making characters clones, for each character I picked what I felt would benefit them the most. The reason they became clones is because the game does not reward diversity in character setup.

If the game had encouraged having a varied party but still had the option of making clones it would be a little different.

I am really pointing out two flaws in the game, one that there is no reason not to make people clones, (in my opinion clones are the best way to go) and the fact that at the end of the game all the characters must become clones.

[LazarCotoron]

Maybe that's why my characters each 'feel' like they have a different role then. By Raithwall's Tomb, I had delineated my characters into armor types and roles that *I* felt were working for them. And it really has made a huge difference in what each character does in my party.

Vaan is my Mage who covers melee support. He's not the most powerful of fighters in my party, but he doesn't need to be because he's one of the games fast characters. In fact, his speed was the primary reason I made him my main caster.

Balthier is in the heavy support role. Flat out, the man is just hard to kill, and besides that, he's using my only packet of Silent Shot, which is very useful in all the right situations.

Fran... it took me a while to figure Fran out. I've determined that Fran is like Vaan, only more fighter and less mage-something that makes sense when you consider Vaan is definately designed around the old FF thief build, and when you consider that in FFTA the Vierra never get particularly good with magic-they just have the flexibility for it. Fran seems to fight best with 2 handed weapons, though I'm going to be giving her that new bow I got and we'll see how that goes this time.

Basch... yeah. Basch is a warrior. With some training, he might make a decent Paladin, but I prefur Basch with Regen and Berserk on him at all times. He's my hulking brute who breaks stuff.

Ashe is like a traditional Red Mage in her flexibility and a Blue Mage in her melee prowess. In fact, power wise, she's everything that I always loved about Quistis in FFVIII. ...on a purely unrelated note, why did FFVIII have a great cast, a crappy story, and a broken system? You wanna talk about characters that became clones, whoo... Ashe fills the role of my 'other' party leader.

Penelo is my other Mage, and my other gunner. Penelo is kind've like Balthier in my party-she doesn't really have a role of her own, but she fills in quite nicely for anyone else, especially Vaan when the enemies are flyers.

Like I said, this whole 'problem' feels kind've artificial to me, and I really think that if gear did more than just affect some numbers this whole topic wouldn't exist.

[VeloZer0]

It works out fine if your goal if variety, but when I set up my characters I was going for what I thought would be the strongest party, and variety did not factor into that one bit. I'm trying to keep it vague here because this isn't the place for arguments about best character set up, but suffice to say I feel one way of setting up a character is far superior to any others and that’s what I’m basing it off.

I should not be able to easily go through the game with 3 clone characters, and I'm not just talking about a token boss or two that rewards a certain type of build (which is ridiculously easy if you cloned that type).

[Renmiri]

License Board = One of the Best systems ever

I liked it a lot.... Then by level 30 I filled all the top board (except on accessories and the 5th gambit or higher, which I didn't need. So all my characters now can cast, heal and hit the same. Yuck!

I also found out that axes are pretty good weapons so the bottom board needs very little filling. Armor, shields and some level 5 bows for Fran and Balthier, that's pretty much what I've got.

On the Sphere grid at least you started with some vastly different characters and took almost the whole game to get them to "even out" into clones of each other.

I disagree with the "one for each" approach that some suggested above. IMHO all the LB needs is to be bigger. Put more HP and MP powerups, for instance. Or make you buy a spell / technique for EACH character. This way you end up prioritizing to save gil, but it also allows "clones" for the people who like clones.

[LazarCotoron]

It works out fine if your goal if variety, but when I set up my characters I was going for what I thought would be the strongest party, and variety did not factor into that one bit. I'm trying to keep it vague here because this isn't the place for arguments about best character set up, but suffice to say I feel one way of setting up a character is far superior to any others and that’s what I’m basing it off.

Mine friendnik, I think you just solved the entire conundrum.

If you think sharing what you did would spark a fight, it stands to reason that the system is much more flexible than you're giving it credit for because people could, as you put it, feel very strongly about what they did different from you. In fact, from the way you stated it, it sounds like I've gone and done something radically and, in your eyes, insanely different from what you felt made an optimal party. And if you did start a flame war over it, I could take it because I made the best choices I could for me and my play style. I am quite fine that it might anger someone, as well. If someone gets angry about a statement of what someone else did differently, isn't it because they feel their views challenged and thinks somewhere inside they might be wrong? I mean, that'd be petty.

Yes, eventually, everyone is basically the same. That's what happens when you have finite slots for infinite points.

Imagine for a moment the game is built for the average gamer, as opposed to we miscreants that may consider ourselves 'real gamers', or even 'hardcore gamers'. Take it a step further and figure that the system needs to be easy to understand becuase Squeenix doesn't want anyone to feel like they can't get into it because it's dizzyingly complex.

It's valid to say it could be done better. It's doubly valid to say that the past six Final Fantasy's have attempted to reinvent the wheel each time, what with the Materia System, the Junction System, whatever the hell they called IX's system, the Sphere Grid, the ...erm... FF MMO thingie-madoodle, and now the License System. Even before that, we had the Esper system and the Job Class system. We've had AP, JP, and LP-I want to say we've had SP, but that might not be in FF.

So, since you think it can be done better, let's play Game Developer. You get to be the Dev guys, and everyone else gets to be the whiners who say that they don't like this, or that that's too hard, or that you spell funny, or god knows whatever else. Nobody needs to play the stock holders because the stock holders all want the same thing-they want the game that "incidentally has whatever the hell those game people put in it" to sell completely bonzer.

It's your move. Make the perfect FF system.