Is this stupid or utter genius?

[Slothy]

Mine friendnik, I think you just solved the entire conundrum.

If you think sharing what you did would spark a fight, it stands to reason that the system is much more flexible than you're giving it credit for because people could, as you put it, feel very strongly about what they did different from you. In fact, from the way you stated it, it sounds like I've gone and done something radically and, in your eyes, insanely different from what you felt made an optimal party. And if you did start a flame war over it, I could take it because I made the best choices I could for me and my play style. I am quite fine that it might anger someone, as well. If someone gets angry about a statement of what someone else did differently, isn't it because they feel their views challenged and thinks somewhere inside they might be wrong? I mean, that'd be petty.

I think we've prety much hit the nail on the head at this point. To be fair, you could have success with any party capable of keeping itself alive while dealing damage to the enemies. For some, they find it most effective to make characters exactly the same, but I've had no trouble with my characters who are each quite different in skills from one another. For my main party I've thrown Vaan into an almost pure melee/damage dealing role. He's my heavy hitter. Balthier essentially covers the status affecting magics and some technicks, while Fran has Black and White magics covered. Obviously by having them spread out into different specialties I could run into trouble if someone dies. Fran is the only one who can heal without relying on items, while Balthier is the only one who can keep up spells like protect, shell or haste. But this setup works for me.

This is what I love about the system; you can have every character be exactly the same, or split them off onto different paths and still be successful. I think it's a testament not only to the design of the license board, but the game itself that there is no one best strategy in all situations. This was something I loved about FFV and I'm glad to see that it's comeback. Like LazarCotoron said VeloZer0; you may be worried about sharing your party setup because you found something that you feel works the best for you, but my strategy is what works the best for my play strategy. I think any game that can support variety in playing styles like that, and even encourage it, must be doing something right.

[VeloZer0]

I would love to argue character build; this thread just isn't the place for it. I'll probably start a thread about it later today.

In terms of simple fixes. I think with a little bit of re-arrangement of the license board this would be possible:
- Have every character be able to get licenses like they currently do
- Make it so you can only have a certain amount of licenses active at any time, and so they have to go in order like the current learning of skills.
- The amount of license points you can have active at a time increases thought the game, most likely with level.

With these changes, for instance, you would be able to customize you characters, and clones would create great imbalances in your party. Say for example, now going heavy into magic to become a good healer requires you to forgo going heavy into physical. You would then have to re-evaluate your strategy instead of just having everyone strong melee + being able to heal adequately.
It should also probably be limited to being able to switch licenses at every save point, or some limiting factor, since you can see your enemies before you engage you could make the point of encouraging diversity moot.

Only thing I can say to top this off is increase the variety of random monsters. More flying monsters to favor range, more high HP elemental weakness monsters to favor Magic. Basically make it so if you decide to forgo an aspect of the game you actually pay for it.

[Setharion]

I just think like most other MMORPGs, and i know XII isnt one but in a sense thats the angle they were going for, that you could have full options of what you wanted a player to be...but once you picked that path that was the path you stayed on.

Now to make it more realistic is perhaps some point in the game you could acquire a profession change and switch it up.

But like other games, if you wanted ashe to be your tank then you choose a warrior style for her, if you wanted bashe your black caster then so be it...but you had to stick along these paths once you picked them.

I just think that makes for a better challenge, makes for a more complete atmosphere, makes for a better game in general and doesnt give your characters that 'cookie cutter' feel to them like im feeling right now.

Im loving this game and its just plain fun, but the cookie cutter feeling is beyond horrible.

I guess im just too old school for this stuff, to me cookie cutter type characters in games feels generic and uninspired, but thats just me though.

[Renmiri]

I think just making the license board much bigger, i.e. 3X it's current size and making you earn each HP and MP increase there (not automatically with level like now) would make it a lot more challenging and fun.
Limiting the number of active licenses like VeloZero suggested is a great idea too!

There was one thing that was more realistic on the Sphere grid: If you follow on the "healer" path you will have to start from scratch and take ages to get your healer to be a good swordsman. Makes sense. Real life is this way: Changing "professions" takes time. I wanted to be a singer, astronaut, ballerina and soccer champ when I was a kid, now I know that EACH path would take me a long time to get good at it so I have to choose one

The License board is designed this way but it is so short that makes it meaningless: any path way too easy to change and in 1 level your guy / gal is as good as the original healer or swordsman of the team. It would be much more "realistic" (how real can mages be ?) if License Board if it was much larger and trading paths midstream made you wait 10-15 levels to get good at the new path.

[James16]

i agree wit yall, i like the way the lincense board is , u have such custimazation abilites that you can choose actually how you want to play the game not jus the way you choose to level up your chars. To me it give the game that much more of a 'your' game feeling if that makes any sense. My party is set up as... Vann is the quick , strong hitter with arcane magic an with fair healing magic, Balthier is a support fighter, hes strong an quick an is the item user, Fran is the same but she focouses on support magic, Basche is a rock so to say, hes stronger than everyone else but is a lill slower, he;s got good balck magic an time magic , Ashe is the cleric with strong healing magic an pretty good attack an penelo is jus kind of there really . I love it, i can jus sit there for hours on end an jus zone out an play the game.

[Setharion]

I think just making the license board much bigger, i.e. 3X it's current size and making you earn each HP and MP increase there (not automatically with level like now) would make it a lot more challenging and fun.
Limiting the number of active licenses like VeloZero suggested is a great idea too!

There was one thing that was more realistic on the Sphere grid: If you follow on the "healer" path you will have to start from scratch and take ages to get your healer to be a good swordsman. Makes sense. Real life is this way: Changing "professions" takes time. I wanted to be a singer, astronaut, ballerina and soccer champ when I was a kid, now I know that EACH path would take me a long time to get good at it so I have to choose one

The License board is designed this way but it is so short that makes it meaningless: any path way too easy to change and in 1 level your guy / gal is as good as the original healer or swordsman of the team. It would be much more "realistic" (how real can mages be ?) if License Board if it was much larger and trading paths midstream made you wait 10-15 levels to get good at the new path.

Yea i can agree with this for how i think it could be set up, because it just makes more sense that way. Even though its like, its not all supposed to be real life or anything, there are still kind of principles id say that should stick.

I liked the sphere grid too btw, i thought that thing worked out nicely.

I honestly though when i read people say how they love the license board have to question it, because i just cant understand how people like the ability to make everyone the same thing or the fact that in the end almost everyone can be the same thing.

I think choosing a profession for each char is a classic way to build your party and then once the choice was made, you could then select the appropriate weapon and have even more choices.

I just know for me it looses something when im sitting there and i go "hm...it would be nice if my tank could ressurrect, lets toss a point over there and let him do just that" or something like that and it be possible, just takes something away from the whole idea of wanting to protect your healer, but since everyone can, who cares if a healer dies...you got 5 more.

Heh this can go round and round though, i just really enjoy more of a challenge and so far the way the game is setup its not so much of a challenge.

Enjoyable game from exploration standpoint and fighting and the story im liking too, but the character building really irks me a bit.

[Slothy]

The point I'm trying to make though VeloZer0 is that this game already caters to those who want variety in their characters and those who like to have every character have every ability without the need for any real fixing as you say. In fact, those who don't want every character to know every ability have a very simple option in front of them; simply choose not to buy every square on the board. It's a bit of a novel idea, but it's that simple. Not only that, but choosing to essentially play different classes doesn't really put you at a disadvantage (which is the point I was trying to make by bringing up my character build. By no means was I intending to steer the discussion towards that topic). If anything it may make the game a little more challenging relying on single characters for different functions, but that's hardly a bad thing.

I just find it odd to see people complain about something they chose to do as though it were a flaw inherent in the system. I don't see catering to a wide variety of play styles as a flaw. Now also keep in mind, I'm not trying to say limiting the license system a little more would be a bad thing; I just don't see how limiting the number of strategies is necessarily preferable for all players though. Some people do enjoy creating the god like characters with every ability while others prefer specific classes, and I feel this game balances both extremely well.

[LazarCotoron]

In the end, I think it's better that we remember this IS Final Fantasy we're talking about. We all have our favorite, deep driving pathos carried from FF whatever in the past-I'm a Job Class system guy myself. Y'see... I'm trying to approach this thing from the point of view of a developer for one reason-I want to develop games. I feel that a lot can be learned in these discussions, but I also feel that many people sell short what's right in front of them.

I hope I haven't offended anyone too deeply-I issue challenges to people that let them play god because I feel it's the best way to see what they're really thinking. When I hear someone complaining, I think "Uh huh, now would you stop whining long enough to tell me what you think would fix the problem?" Complaining and whining means someone doesn't feel things are working out, but it doesn't create solutions. Now, we all whine and complain some, and that's fine-it very well might be natural, in fact.

So... what I've concluded is that things are 'too' open. Just remember though, we're the 'hardcore' crowd. Squeenix sells games to people who are not us. We'd buy the game anyway sooner or later, regardless of reviews, complaints, hype, etc. The ubiquotous 'they' know that. They want to sell more copies of the game than they do to just us.

[Setharion]

I know for myself that not choosing every option is the answer, yet heres my point.

It would be like at the very start of a game theres a treasure chest that says "End game weaponry"...now sure you dont have to choose it, but its there. It just cheapens it...even though the devs may say "well this is for the crowd of gamers that dont care if they are hitting for 9,999 at level 1"...it still just ruins the feel of it even if i choose not to open it. But the temptation is far too great...perhaps you are just getting owned by a boss, its too easy to go and say well "ill go over and unlock that chest, kill the boss and never use that weapon again". It just makes for a more pure atmoshpere if the option isnt there.

WHen people say variety, i just dont get how having a tank, caster, thief, healer etc isnt enough variety, i just dont see how its fun to have everyone do every thing.

Even if its just an 'option', it takes away from a certain something and i cant quite think of the word.

For those that like it, thats great...i just know im a bit more hardcore and i like not being able to have every option open to every character. I find that it waters down the whole idea of a party in an rpg.

[VeloZer0]

While handicapping yourself (which is effectively what not learning the whole board is) is a preferred play style for some, it most certainly isn't mine. My play style is to try and optimize my characters. That is somewhat incompatible with trying to do it with only learning certain skills.

Albeit on a second play through limiting the total number of license points I spend may be viable, it is hardly an option on the first play through of a game you can't even see the whole license board. My preferred systems are ones where you can put a great deal of effort into setting up your party, FF7 and FFT being examples of my favorites. Some people may say FF7 you could just throw everything on, but I usually spend significant time making every party set up a work of art. Only problem is the system breaks down when you start mastering allot of material and then everyone can have everything you want. Still fun, but not as.

For a more moderate example, take FF9. I would equate the License Board system to every character having every ability permanently equipped when you learn them. I can't see how that would make the game more enjoyable or interesting. I would hardly call 9's system unapproachable though.

[LazarCotoron]

See, I also would tend to say that FFIX really did it right. If I had one issue with FFIX (in terms of my party), it was that Vivi was a character I needed to have in my party as much as possible. Vivi was your reliable, heavy hitting offense. Some could argue that Steiner was instead... But I seem to recall the game encouraged you to have Steiner and Vivi in the same party-something about magic sword skills.

What pleases me about the License Board is particularly, I didn't turn the game on and it was so easy to power my characters up that it was over before it began. That was my biggest problem with FFVIII. By the end of the first disc, my party was unstoppable. And what's interesting, VeloZer0, is that you have the same problem with FFVII that you do with FFXII, but you'll forgive FFVII for it. I found the materia system pretty broken as well, but it took longer to get to a point where having too much materia broke everything about the game because you didn't have that much freedom with it. It wasn't until the end where you had 12 materia slots on every character that things really started to break down.

I'm now 45 hours into FFXII and I have most of the augments I want for each of my characters. Depending on the character, the lower license boards are fairly neglected so far. What I like about the freedom of the License Board is that it doesn't punish me by forcing me to use classes of characters that *I* can't use becasue I'm not a universalist when it comes to job roles. For example, I always have trouble fitting the Summoner types into how I play Final Fantasy. I generally have problems with the dedicated melee characters, and I'm usually wondering why they punish my mages with crappy gear. FFXII hasn't done that to me, and I'm grateful for it. Course I am getting pigeon-holed into using more status magic than I'm used to, but that's ok. I'm enjoying the added strategy to those magics now that they make appreciable differences.

[VeloZer0]

FFVII becomes broken only when I try to power level my material at the end of the game, XII becomes broken simply through playing through the game. Additionally, even at the end of VII I still have to put some thought into how I will equip my characters every time I do it, in XII and X, my characters just are.

I played through IX without Vivi whenever possible, so I guess it's a play style thing. On that note though, I found IX to be the most balanced in terms of characters. All the characters were very different, yet I have played with numerous setups and have found them all to be extremely good. So, in the end its a fairly good example of what I'm looking for, you can chose your play style, you can't have everything, you will have tradeoffs for whatever you gain, you can succeed with anything.

[Wolf Kanno]

It's really about how you approach it. I'm with most people here for the system. I've finished the game and I've reached the point where characters are finally becoming supposed "clones". But you see, I still relagate my party based on how I want them to be used. Penelo is still my "white mage", Basch is my warrior, and even though he can cast Flare and Scathe, I don't let him, mostly cause he sucks at magic and I don't want to cater his equipment to make him good.

I came into the game with a set idea of how I wanted my party. I have had to change a few of my convictions (cause white magic is too useful) but interestingly enough. Even though alot of my characters share similiar skills, my party is equipped differently and used differently. The characters actually have distinctions from each other. It's suttle but it is there. I've also found that the game actually punishes you for trying to create "omni-characters". The combat system is designed around using a greater level of strategy than earlier FF's, and I have found that creating "omni-characters" destroys anyway of using strategy effectively. Now granted, your whole party is interchangeable but as I've stated before, there are slight stat differences that become blatanly obvious as the game goes along.

Besides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I prefer the job class systems used in FFT but I don't feel the license board makes the game easier, rather it grants the player the greatest amount of freedom in an FF without being overly annoying about it like FFII was. I can build whatever I really want. When I decide to start my second game, I'm going to create even more defined characters wirth little overlap. One to make the game more challenging but also cause I really want to push the gambit system and enjoy the games finer mechanics.

[LazarCotoron]

IBesides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I hereby declare all dissenters and whiners ROFLPWN'D.

[Setharion]

IBesides the point of the system is to build the characters you want to build, from scratch. If you feel it "cheapens" the experience because you lack any discipline and will power, that is your fault, not the games.

I hereby declare all dissenters and whiners ROFLPWN'D.

Well hey, to each his own. If people like being handed everything on a silver platter in games now and everything must cater to their every need, then so be it.

I prefer a bit more of a designed and structured layout instead of cookie cutter characters.