Is this stupid or utter genius?

[LazarCotoron]

I agree that it shouldn't be handed to people.

I just disagree that it's as poorly balanced as you make it out to be. Then again, my version of leveling in these games involves me getting lost and being FORCED to spend extra time in dungeons as opposed to power leveling. I try to play the game as it comes as opposed to grind out a bunch of levels and JP before I go to the next place. If the next place kills me, THEN I grind out levels and JP. I played FFT the same way.

Power leveling of any kind ruins your personal gameplay experience. Sometimes you power level because you want to be the best. Other times because you're uncertain of when you should leave. Still others, like I do, because you're lost or can't finish a puzzle.

Course... maybe it's all perception. *shrug* VeloZer0-I want you to know that I DO respect your views. I strongly believe you're wrong, and you strongly believe I am wrong. In forums, it's usually 'talk of the day' to raz someone at the perceived end of a discussion.

I honestly did have a good time discussing this, though. Even if posting like this makes me look like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well hey, to each his own. If people like being handed everything on a silver platter in games now and everything must cater to their every need, then so be it.

I prefer a bit more of a designed and structured layout instead of cookie cutter characters.

You really haven't been paying attention to what anyone else has been saying. The point was to create your own party. The system is as structured as you want it to be.

The game allows you to even build the job class systems if you so desire. It is a designed and structured layout that doesn't give you everything "On a silver platter". Remember, you have to purchase your equipment and spells, so it's not like you can can start the game off casting Flare.

It's a flexible system that can easily cater to any player as long as they know what they really want to do. Your characters are only as generic and "cookie cutter" as you allow them to be. Everything is about choice, if you choose to let your characters all become generic omni characters it's because you have no plan or you lack the discipline to stick to a plan.

I don't mean to be hostile but I'm trying prove my point that the system isn't really the problem. I can agree with Renmiri about expanding it and giving even greater options for customization but this idea that the game system sucks cause the player has to apply the control factor is utter bull. That's just my opinion and as you said, "to each his own" but I like to think that I'm an adult and I don't need the game to tell me that I have to follow a pre-designed path at all times in my RPGs. The game's theme was freedom and the License board gives that to us.

I'm really sorry, if I've offended you or crossed a line but I don't feel you have created a compelling argument. Just as you probably feel I haven't either. So let's just agree to disagree, or at least come back with more comical retorts...

[Setharion]

Wolf i understand that its there to create your own party, wouldnt you say most RPGs strive for that goal though too? Its not like its really something new.

But other games let you pick and choose different characters of different classes and you build your party that way, making you choose wisely as to whos going to be in it.

I understand i dont have to give everyone everything, but its kind of hard not too when you see a couple hundred LP points sitting around and then it just becomes too easy.

As an RPG vet now thas been playing them for 25 nows, im just saying that it loses something when for instance every person even your thief can cast ressurrect or could cast end game magics, that just doesnt fit into the lore of what RPGs are. But if people want to just overlook that then fine, i just prefer to stick to that outline of things.

My point is that you can have options and build your own party but still have characters designed to what they are meant to be.

For example, as i said earlier they could of made it so you have every choice to make your party how you see fit like FF1 did. If you wanted to make all thieves then do so, if you wanted all black mages, then do so. You basically picked the path of each character and then more directions open up from that.

So say i wanted Fran as my main caster...well at the start she would take a path of black magic and then from there you could choose a few other small magics to accompany her main. And youd have options of what weapon to use, staves or daggers or guns, then you could have perhaps light armor, mystic etc..and still had many many options.

But all that would simply do is just make it so Fran is going to be your big magic damage dealer yet not have the ability to crack a 2 handed sword over someones head or steal or be casting white holy magic.

Well as you said though, we need to agree to disagree and thats fine...and its all for conversational debate so no dont worry you didnt say anything over the line, i like a good debate.

But for me, im an old dog with RPGs...therefore this new little razzle dazzle stuff just doesnt suit me. I like stricter, more outlined RPGs with characters having direct roles in a game and not able to be made into everything anyone else can be. Its just as i said what 25 years of gaming will do for ya, especially rpgs.

[Setharion]

That's just my opinion and as you said, "to each his own" but I like to think that I'm an adult and I don't need the game to tell me that I have to follow a pre-designed path at all times in my RPGs

One more thought before i go to work on this...see man, thats the problem right there. Guys like you act as if youre now too big for a layout such as the older rpgs offered or even RPG structure in general.

Like its a slap to your face or something when its not even about any of that. Its clearly just certain aspects that make RPGs what they are.

I dont know...i just find that saying something like that really just tries to put you on some sort of high pedestal as if people who like RPGs to have a certain structure must be kids and its a way of the game telling them what to do...i just find that kind of funny really.

Meh, i just feel when people display these kind of attitudes its what devs see and start to go down and before we know it Final Fantasy will be a first person shooter because people feel they should be able to see through the eyes of their characters or something.

Again, just going to have to majorly agree to disagree on it.

[VeloZer0]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Wolf Kanno, you seem to be missing my point here. You conclude the reason all my characters are clones is because I (or others who spec in this fashion) lack discipline in class customization. The point I am trying to make is character optimization is a big part of games for me. I particularly enjoy games where a great deal of time must be devoted to characters set up (Hence me liking systems like FFVII and FFT). For me a large portion of the fun of a game is gleaned from optimizing my party to be the best it can be.

In a game like XII I came with no preconceived notions as to what I would be setting up my characters as, I just played, observed and decided what I felt to be the best setup. Coincidentally I felt this best set up to be clones, which I feel is a problem with game balance. My roommate who thinks much like I do in terms of optimization did come into the game with a pre-conceived party setup and gradually moved over to clones because he was also looking to create the best party.

In conclusion a system like the License Board offers extremely little to the gamer who likes involved character set up and optimization.

[Setharion]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Wolf Kanno, you seem to be missing my point here. You conclude the reason all my characters are clones is because I (or others who spec in this fashion) lack discipline in class customization. The point I am trying to make is character optimization is a big part of games for me. I particularly enjoy games where a great deal of time must be devoted to characters set up (Hence me liking systems like FFVII and FFT). For me a large portion of the fun of a game is gleaned from optimizing my party to be the best it can be.

In a game like XII I came with no preconceived notions as to what I would be setting up my characters as, I just played, observed and decided what I felt to be the best setup. Coincidentally I felt this best set up to be clones, which I feel is a problem with game balance. My roommate who thinks much like I do in terms of optimization did come into the game with a pre-conceived party setup and gradually moved over to clones because he was also looking to create the best party.

In conclusion a system like the License Board offers extremely little to the gamer who likes involved character set up and optimization.

Velo i see what you mean now, the fact that the 'best' party in this game is a group of clones is what makes it a problem and thats what i agree with too, 100%.

Thats the thing too...we shouldnt have to have discipline in making a party and not giving them everything...lacking discipline is so not the problem. I workout and lift and been doing it for years, i know how to have discipline and what not.

I just like to think of it like an actual MMO in which this game was based upon, and i didnt play FFXI, but from my years of MMO the special thing about it was how everyone had their job and that was their job.

You had your buffers, your tanks, your casters, your rogues etc...all of which served their purposes to that of their professions. If everyone was the same thing would it have that same feel too it? Peoples reputations were built around their classes. Certain names just followed the class they were, and they were known as a "great magician" or a "great tank"...i just think it would of lost something in the transition if everyone was great at everything. Because in all technicalities, there is no 'class' so to speak for a jack of all trades in the RPG world.

And its no different here i feel, just the fact that you can toss heavy armor on a pure mage is just so...off. Maybe for people that dont really care about the roots to an RPG its no big deal, but for people that still uphold the roots to an rpg its a big deal.

But anyways, Velo i just wanted to say i see your point.

[Rabidewok]

"just the fact that you can toss heavy armor on a pure mage is just so...off."

Sure you can do that.. but their Magic damage or healing won't be as much..

IMO if you make clones then you must not have a very powerful imagination... And i'm not saying don't 100% fill the board cuz you can customize your characters just as well if you do.

Right now I just use. Vaan, Basch and Penelo. I honestly don't really like the others.. But that doesn't matter cuz they get LP anyways so when i do decide to use them they'll have 4k LP.

Vaan and Basch are my tanks. Armed with shields for less damage taken and vaan has a Rare secret sword, Demonsbane (just got it) and Basch uses an Axe (even though axes' damage isn't 100% full it still does great damage at most of the time) Penelo was going to be my magic user, dark magic w/e then found that basch and vaan kill things in a combo of their 2 hits and penelo just wasted mana.. so she reverted to a bow weilding caster and debuffer.

You just have to make the characters what you want... You can still do this by 100% the LP board.

[Setharion]

Sure you can do that.. but their Magic damage or healing won't be as much..

Sure it will be, it will suffice more than it should. Ive already experimented with it.

And its not a matter of not having an imagination...believe me, i been around the block with rpgs and have played alot in 25 years.

I just find the principle that there are no set classes a downfall, and if alot of people love it then thats fine...im just glad other rpgs out there do it the way its meant to be done, it just so happens FFXII makes it a bit too easy if you ask me.

As i said, im enjoying the game...skills and classes though are a major letdown.

[LazarCotoron]

LazarCotoron, you take all the fun out of trying to get the last word in. It is amusing to see several people trying to rip each other apart and then apologizing after each go incase they offended anyone.

Oh, that. That's just my version of PC because it's expected in our day and age. I'll say the bad thing and mean it. Your view does matter, though-just not to me.

The problem that I really have with your complaint is that it's one of those RPG 'purist' complaints-and I should know about those, I GM pen and paper for several different games. It also reeks of rules lawyering and mini maxing-though mini maxing doesn't piss me off so much because I expect my players to do the very best they can given their limitations. The idea that the 'game' is at fault is utterly rediculous because the game is designed around the system so it can be balanced in and of itself. Now, I admit-FF has a storied history about completely breaking the game-we need look no further than FFVIII and what an hour of looking for spells can do.

I just really can't agree with you that the License Board breaks the game. I strongly suspect that this is purely because I'm looking at it from my PoV, and there's something you did that I didn't that made things go boink. The encounters are interesting, and it's the first FF since FFVI that killed me in an out and out fair fight, as opposed to cheap shots and unbelievable mishaps. To ME, a game that beats me through matched even combat is pretty damn balanced.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just not as good at Final Fantasy as you. And y'know, from what you're saying, maybe I don't wannabe.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm sorry if my one comment came off as "high and mighty". I didn't intend it like that . See, I understand where your coming from cause you are only a year older than me, but I feel our experiences with 20+ years of RPGs have given us a different outlook.

Now personally, I like structured systems like you do. I feel FFT has the greatest system of any game. But lately, it feels to me that "customization" to the developer means I can have a good mage or I can have an excellent mage and nothing else. My mage is still just a mage, only the quality is different. Most rpg's I've played are incredibly rigid and leave little room for real personalization. I've also never been one to feel that people should be bound by rules unless they choose it for themselves. But that's another topic entirely....

My point is that I feel that most RPG's as of late, bind themselves too greatly in the stereotypes that came before them. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't feel it has to be an unwritten rule. Sometimes we have to change the rules and learn to grow. If we hold onto it too much, we become stagnate and unable to adapt. I feel the license board gives us a chance to really experiment, to try new things and to grow out of our former conceptions of how things have to be.

It's funny I should say this though. I actually went into the game with how I wanted to use each character and I stuck to it for the longest time. I ended up building my "own" structure, based on FFT. Basch was my Knight/Samurai, Vaan was my Theif/Ninja, Penelo was my White Mage/ Oracle... I pretty much used what the license board had given me, built my desired party, and designed my gambits around building strategy. When I start my second playthrough I'm hoping to create a list/path on the liscence board to build the job classes so other people can try to play "pure character classes".

As I've said, the liscence board is what you make of it and percieve it. I chose to build "pure characters", I don't think of Basch as just "random generic party member 3" Basch is my Paladin now, and he's saved my ass quite a few times. It's how I decided to build him, and I wouldn't change it for a cheap victory. He already gets alot of renown from me and he isn't even real. But I take great satisfaction in bulding him like I did.

It's all in how you choose to use the system and I am happy to have this kind of freedom. I know that we'll never see anything like it for a long time so I'm enjoying it while I can. If you feel that it's ability to break all the conventional rules bother you, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. I'm only happy that I was able to better understand your reasonings and I hope now you have a better understanding of mine.

As for optimizing my party VeloZer0, I completely understand where you are coming from. I'm one of those crazy people who abuses systems in order to see how much I can do. I do the weird insane challenges that people come up with and I understand the satisfaction of building a perfect character within a restrictive system. But as I've stated above, the system is only as generic as you allow it to be. You see, while building my characters classes, I get to abuse and use another part of the system. The Gambit system. I built specific characters with little overlap and spent hours on building effective strategies in using them with the Gambit system.

It's incredibly challenging at times cause as you stated, Omni characters can fight in any situation. But I'm trying to build strategies for my specific classes. It has alot of trial and error but the satisfaction of building "pure characters" and using an almost flawless strategy to take down something like Vyraal or Gilgamesh brings such euphoric satisfaction It's still there, it's just different and it takes awhile to get use to the radical system changes that none of us are used to.

[Setharion]

Wolf heres the thing, key word for me, tradition.

The one thing that irritates me about this generation is nobody is every happy with tradition, people act like they will die if they are in a similar situation. Innovation is all people care about, when all it does is create ridiculous aspects to games or music or whatever format all of the sake of 'innovation'.

I just get tired of the moaning that people do when they say "awww well i just want the freedom to do this or that"...when it boils down to some things are best kept left alone.

I mean for example, heres a good showing of tradition. The NFL...i been watching football and playing it my whole life...dont you think i should be tired of it now after 28 years? I mean really...its still the same old thing, kickoff, team tries to go from one end of the field to the other, punt, other teams turn and on and on for 3 hours. But why doesnt it get old? Because for one i 'love' the sport, and i love the tradition of it all.

I mean think about it...i bet alot of players wish by now they had the freedom to chop block someone or body slam someone, but they cant due to rules and tradition. The game is just what it is and the idea isnt going to change.

The key to football though is what happens in between, from start to finish, point A to B.

And thats where i compare RPGs, the goals the ideas the tradition of it all imho should stay the same, for those that love the genre will love the genre no matter what.

Its a matter of what happens from start to finish. The friendships, the betrayals, the upsets, the defeats, the victories etc...all of this compiled together is make an rpg interesting and exciting. And like football, to me, the rules have been set when it comes to how a game should be done or the feeling you get. Now im not saying there cant be tweaks, sure there can...but major overhauls is where it just bums me out a bit.

Now take football again...its a team sport, just like most rpgs are a team setting. You arent going to have some of those huge linemen doing what the recievers can do, or have the recievers doing what the lineman or QBs can do...they all have their abilities that they bring to the table.

I know its just a game, but i mean some standards should be kept even though its just a game. I mean to get technical with that kind of viewpoint to say its just a game, then why cant in a game like Final Fantasy i have a rocket launcher to shoot, i mean its only just a game...why would it matter? But see dont you think someone would say "rocket launchers in a game like FF just wouldnt fit, it would ruin the atmosphere". Im going to guess most would think that.

So then to sum it all up, its just how i feel about everyone having the 'option' to be clones. Even though its not a must, which i understand...its just something that i feel shouldnt be there due to the standards of this kind of game set.

Just like other genres, the standards and what not have been set.

But hey, i understand people have other views...i just would think that most RPG advocates would really appreciate the roots of the genre and want that to be instilled in their games instead of wanting change after change all for the sake of saying they need something innovative.

But anywhos, the horse is laying there twitching right now lol i think thats about all she wrote for this topic.

Edit: Just one more thing...as i said somewhere in this thread, im fine with having choices. Choices within a class...if you went with caster for Fran i just feel that she should be out of the skills to weild an axe or something. But she could have alot of choices within her casting as to what kinds and what sorts of mage weapons to use and armors etc...there still could of been a bunch of choices but he character would of became 'the caster' and thats her role to help the team. Thats just how i would of liked to see it...give people choice to make all casters if they wanted or all tanks, but once the class is set youd then have some limitations within that class, but enough options to keep it interesting.

[LazarCotoron]

I don't believe I have ever or will ever see again Final Fantasy compared to the NFL in an intelligent fashion.

And that's just the rub, isn't it? Tradition is why we come back, but each time they reinvent the wheel they get further and further away from what we're used to. The complexities of the old time fans fight with the changing times. There are things in RPG tradition that are truly archaic, but not all of those things are bad, are they?

I kinda' agree that the LB system is a bit on the easy side. It's just in context of FFXII... Well, you wanted to talk about tradition, so let's go there. Can you honestly tell me what everyone in FFXII does just by looking at them-I can't. None of them are wearing actual armor of any kind, so not a one of them is a warrior. None of them have pointy wizard hats or glowing yellow eyes, so that's out too. I sorta' must've missed the white robes and red triangles on anyone... I sure as hell don't see anyone in armor stylized to look draconic.

I believe in innovation strongly because I've seen a lack of real innovation kill off my favorite genre, and there's not going to be anyone who would argue that about 2D sidescrollers (c'mon, I LOVE Mega Man, and even I'm starting to think that we need to sit down and have an Old Yeller moment). And I mentioned earlier that some innovations are flat out bad (Junction System, anyone?). Just to do a thing out of tradition blindly is foolish-that'd be like people in Salem getting together to stone witches because it's 'tradition'.

But tradition should celebrated since it makes up rich part of who we are and where we've been. And in regards to tradition, my feelings on FFXII are mixed at the best. The Lucavi are a 'new tradition' in a sense, having been spawned by FFT, and they are the best demonic fell beings I have ever seen represented in a fantasy game outside of pen and paper games. And by the best, I mean it's not even close. In FFXII, they've made them Espers-and given the world of Ivalice (also a new tradition since FFT), I could see the people of that world calling them that. Ivalice itself is a good tradition, and has undergone significant change when Tactics Advance came out. From the changes that were done there, we have the most gorgeous world in the entire RPG genre, and it came out of a game that most people abandoned because it was 'different'.

But there are traditions that really don't have a place in Final Fantasy anymore. The series classic trademark monsters have places in FFXII-and every time a Bomb or Marlboro shows up, it's forced. Course, then there's the Demon Wall-something that hasn't been done since FFV. And that was done so well that I can't imagine that part of the game without it-it was an intractable experience to have it come back. And for god sakes, WHERE'S MY BLACK MAGE!? No steepled hats, glowing eyes, mysterious strangers in cloaks..

I complain at your complaining because I can tell some people have some nasty decisions to make. It sounds like many of them left Square during the making off FXII because they could not in good conscience back the decisions that were being made.

It's been coming for a while, if you look back at the grumbling every time a new game was released. FFXI avoided it by being different in as many ways as possible, so most people don't exactly count it.

I'm not surprised that we, and especially I, have taken this too far in here a few times. If anything, my circle of friends were thinking that FFXII was going to bring it back and do it right, but FFXII has moved in a very different direction from that. I imagine some of my friends and those like my friends are probably feeling abandoned by 'their' game.

*Pokes the horse with a stick*

[Setharion]

*pokes the horse in his eye*

yea i see where you are coming from ,but one of my final thoughts on it would be this.

I wouldnt of minded if they wanted to set a new trend or style of game with a 'new title'. Then it would be its own thing, just like FF did back in 87 or 88 was it.

It could of been a brand new series called "everlasting lore" or something and had all this stuff that they used. And i would of had an easier time ridin with that.

But for me i just feel, leave something that isnt broken untouched for the sake of keeping it classic.

Its all in the person, i guess im the weirdo because im just not striving for that change in things. Perhaps because ive had so many other things change my life beyond my control when it comes to family members passing a way and such, is why i just guess i cling to the old days for things and am not one that just like i said strives for that need to change.

That poor horse

[Renmiri]

I don't believe I have ever or will ever see again Final Fantasy compared to the NFL in an intelligent fashion.

On the collectors edition there is an interview with FFXII's game designer where he discusses it at length. Very cool too I'll see if I upload it to youtube after X-mas.

[Wolf Kanno]

Believe me, I understand the idea of tradition, especially with the FF series. I've finished all but a two of them (FFIII and FFXI). And honestly, I prefer the older games way more than the newer ones. Even FFXII ranks below FFIV and FFVI in my mind.

But one tradition of the FF series is innovation. Each game always tries to break the boundaries, whether in story, cinematics, graphics, or gameplay. But another tradition is that a game comes along every so often that reels the series in and reminds us of our roots. This is why FFIX was more appealing to the older fans who had started on the older games. FFXII does this as well, not in gameplay though. The world itself is a reminder to us of what an FF world is supposed to be like and I love the game for it. The gameplay was the developers trying to basically reinvent the wheel so to speak.

That's fine, I like the LB/Gambit system but it's still not my favorite system. I prefer the older style of games but I won't let my bias' blind me into believing that anything new is automatically evil or wrong. Now it seems to me that you have played this system going in with an open mind and you just came to the conclusion you don't like it. It pretty much comes back to your sense of tradition within the series. Now that's fine with me, you don't care for it. I like the system, but even I don't want it to be standard for the series. So we have some common ground.

The thing, is my idea of tradition within the series is different and I probably have a much more loose view of it than you do. Nothing wrong with either view though. I just play the system and see it for the well crafted stragetic wonder that it is. It gives me freedom to be completely crazy or even to be cut-throat traditional, the gambit system builds the other half of the system allowing me to have a level of strategy in the series I haven't seen in the main series since FFV.

Basically, my main argument is that the system is technically designed to appease both sides of the debate. The crazy young innovaters who like playing god with their characters and the "old geezers" like you and me who prefer a more defined and strategic approach. I just find it odd that you are decrying a system just because it allows a mage to wield a giant two handed axe and wear leather armor and yet still be able to cast Flare, when it comes down to it,even though you don't have to make it that way. It just seems rather OC to me rather than a real argument.

Hell even Tactics allowed you to get mages who could equip heavy armour or use swords. Doubt any one really did but the choice was always there. To be perfectly honest with you, I felt the same way when I first heard about the system. It bothered me that the characters had no classes and the LB seemed rather random to me. But then I got really deep into the game and looked at the board and realized my classes were there. Sure I had to make do with a few things and I lost quite a bit of the hardcore stat differences in the class system. But I realized the flexibility of the system and how I can work it to what I wanted it to be.

The main difference between us in the end, is simply the fact that I can ignore the possibilty of non-traditional elements in my game, you cannot. I don't believe either view is wrong and I understand the idea to maintain the status quo but I just feel that FFXII doesn't really break the status quo or any tradition really. It just allows us to bend the rules a little more than even the job class system did. To me the Liscence board is basically a less structured Job class system. By sacrificing a bit of the old structure, though, the player was granted a greater level of freedom than we have ever been given. I don't think that reason alone is for the system to be condemned, though I don't feel it should be excepted whole heartedly either.

Yeah, definetly beating this poor horse's corpse like it owes me money