underrated!

[Ryushikaze]

But nowhere in the game does it ever say that there can be only one sorceress existing at a time. In fact, the tutorial says that the number of sorceresses in the world is not known. And let's not forget that Edea, followed by Rinoa who inherits her powers, exist while Adel is yet alive.

And it's also never stated that the sorceresses you fight are the ones who exist between Rinoa and Ultimecia's lifetimes. Time is being compressed, so they could be from throughout the history of the world.

Or they could be in between you and Ultimecia, since, y'know, you're travelling forward through time, Ulti is controlling them, and her machine has a limit.

But you're not traveling through time. Time is compressing. It's all becoming one. Odine states this in the game.

You begin in your time. You wind up in Ultimecia's time. As time has not compressed yet, you were skipping forward through time to get to her time.

Actually, I choose to skip over and ignore anything that looks like that. So it's not that I don't understand it, it's that I don't read it.

I'm the smartest person I know.:D

You must not know anyone. Poor dear.

Entirely uncalled for. I think my proven 161 IQ speaks for itself.

Not really. You've merely made another braggart-y claim now. Prove you have a 161 IQ.

Ultimecia has no memory of her former life whatsoever, and therefore has no idea who Squall and Rinoa are.

In short, making her Rinoa in body only. Yes. Tons of depth. If you'll excuse me, I'm drowning in the sarcasm.

No, not really. I like to think (but, of course, can't prove anything on this) that she remembered everything when she appeared to Squall and Edea at the orphanage at the end, possibly falling through the same sort of time rifts that Squall was falling through, maybe having to do with her life. Again, it's just a theory.

No. It isn't. It isn't even a hypothesis. It's a wackaloon postulate which you have absolutely no empirical evidence to support.

Put two and two together. I provided the evidence that Rinoa may be Ultimecia (didn't say for sure, which is what forces us to use our brains). Ultimecia tries to kill Squall and Rinoa and seems not to know who they are. GFs make people forget things. Ultimecia uses at least one GF that we know about: Griever.

Logic, people. Logic. Am I the only one with pointed ears here?;)

Just because you're physically deformed, it neither makes you logical, nor a space elf. You are, to repeat a coining, sodomizing parsimony with a marital aid made from prison plumbing. The above is a HUGE non sequitor.

I'm physically deformed? Right. I hate when people spit out insults during a debate just to make themsleves seem stronger. Especially a debate over a video game! Try not to take things to heart so easily, huh?

For someone trying to make a joke, you don't take them particularly well yourself.

My take on the Griever thing is that when Squall was killed, Rinoa blocked his path to the afterlife and imprisoned it in the Griever ring--something had had sentimental value to him--where over time he was transformed into "the most powerful GF in Squall's mind." He had become what he had imagined the legendary Griever would have been like. Thus, the GF that he had become was the most powerful GF "in his mind," i.e. he transformed into what he had imagined all of his life. This gives Ultimecia's "juntioning unto Griever" so much more meaning.

And with THAT outrageous claim, you render your ability to prove it completely impossible. You fail, good day, enjoy your biscuit.

Again, it's a theory coupled with my theory of how all the Final Fantasy games are connected. The theories are connected.

And once again, quite with the insults. We're discussing a video game. There's no reason for such a discussion to become heated.

Leaving aside that non of my above is an insult, you are attempting to, in effect, rewrite the story of this game based on what amounts to your desire for the game to be deeper. You are doing so by trying to assert a patently outrageous claim- as well as the even more outrageous 'FF connection' claim- and as such, you suffer the burden of proof, and quite heavily as I might add. Since you cannot show any evidence, you fail by default. Enjoy that biscuit.

I said it already: Sorceress prison. You know, like the one they put Adel in? She didn't seem to need sustainence while in it and also appeared to be in suspended animation, so that's the most obvious theory.

Even assuming that it keeps her perfectly suspended (It doesn't), Rinoa still eventually ages and dies.

I'll play a you here: do you have any proof that it does not?

Do you have any proof that it DOES? If Adel had been perfectly suspended, her power wouldn't have been able to leak out and be broadcast over the RF frequencies in dollet, now would it?

As to the soul-suspending thing, I think of the relationship between a sorceress and her knight to be similar to that of a summoner and her guardian in FFX, in that special bonds--love being the most obvious--gives her more power over her knight. This ties into another theory I have that all Final Fantasies are related, but that's a whole 'nother ballpark. Evidence of a sorceress having some effect over her knight's will is the flashback to when the team defeated Edea and watched as Seifer helped the newly-possessed Rinoa to her feet. He seems to be in some sort of a trance, and [/size][/font] [font=&quot][font=Verdana][size=2]acknowledges the puppeteer being as "Sorceress Ultimecia."

You DO realize she was actually using Mind Control on the boy, si?
Oh, and prove your claim that Sorcerer/Knight grants them powers. Though where are you getting the "guardian powers" thing from?

Part of this comes from my belief that Squall died at the end, and that Rinoa revived him. This is an entirely different theory, and I'll be happy to post it if need be.

Support with evidence or concede the issue. Non of this question dodging.

I think GFs are exactly this: sorceresses' knights whose souls were bound to something to alter them into demons. This is based on the Doomtrain ring and the Diablos lamp, and putting this idea in motion is what makes me think that Squall was bound to the Griever ring from whence he emerged years later as Griever.

In short- No. In long- Prove it.

I cannot, of course. But can you prove that this is not the case? Once again, it's linked with my FF-connection theory.

I don't have to prove it's not the case. You have to prove it is.

Yes! Exaclty my point! I--and many others--see things like this as there being more than what is apparent.

No, you're trying to make up what simply is not there.

What I'm making up is the how. Playing the game, this theme was blatantly obvious to me, whether it was intentional or not. It adds meaning to both the characters of Ultimecia and Rinoa, as well as Squall's promise. It makes one wonder how far he'll go with it.

It is 'blatantly obvious' that the sun goes 'round the earth. It is also incredibly false.

Even if Rinoa is not Ultimecia, Ultimecia represents what Rinoa has the potential to become. If not the Ultimecia, given the past of how sorceresses seem to be prone to misbehavior, the deffinitely has the potential to become an Ultimecia.

No, she has the potential to become a misbehaving sorceress.

Well, I've hardly tried. I've always been convinced of it and seeing this theme throughout the game--intentional or not--was always there. It's the explaination part as to how it all went down where trying come into play.

When an explanation requires far more rings than the entire corps of lanterns, it has issues, to say the least.

I believe Rinoa is Ultimecia. The things I've listed are theories, not proofs. It's really impossible to prove; but, I also believe it's impossible to entirely disprove as well. If you like, fine, we can throw out everything I've said. What we're left with is a mystery. I know Rinoa and Ulitmecia are the same person, but the how is a mystery; and therein lies the appeal.

No. The things you have listed are CLAIMS. You don't have evidence one to support them. Your overarcing claim 'Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person' is incredibly outrageous, meaning it is in parsimony's grand disfavor! And you really are giving it your damndest with that golden mean, aren't you? Guess what? The golden mean is a fallacy! If you cannot reasonably support your postulate, it has no validity! No one actually has to disprove it! The job is entirely upon YOU to back up your claims with empirical evidence.

And like I said, if she is not actually Ultimecia, then Ultimecia represents a possible path that Rinoa can take if she chooses. It is a story of morality. Would she see just what is possible with her sorceress powers and attempt the same thing? And if so, would Squall stand with her as he promised, or would "his sword peirce her heart," as she said. It represents tough choices for both of them as a couple, and this is why I say there is so much more depth to FF8 than meets the eye, because we never know what the future might bring, dispite this chapter's happy ending.

You sure are making a big deal out of what is basically a standard issue as far as sorceresses go. Cid and Edea dealt with it too. This isn't depth, it's both common knowledge and procedure.