underrated!

[Takara]

It's the FFVIII forums, almost every thread derails into a R=U debate.

[Darth Anarcus]

Actually, I choose to skip over and ignore anything that looks like that. So it's not that I don't understand it, it's that I don't read it.

I'm the smartest person I know.

You must not know anyone. Poor dear.

Entirely uncalled for. I think my proven 161 IQ speaks for itself.[/quote]Not really. You've merely made another braggart-y claim now. Prove you have a 161 IQ.[/quote]
"Prove this. Prove that." I see no need to prove this part to you. You need to calm down and stop taking this so heatedly.

My take on the Griever thing is that when Squall was killed, Rinoa blocked his path to the afterlife and imprisoned it in the Griever ring--something had had sentimental value to him--where over time he was transformed into "the most powerful GF in Squall's mind." He had become what he had imagined the legendary Griever would have been like. Thus, the GF that he had become was the most powerful GF "in his mind," i.e. he transformed into what he had imagined all of his life. This gives Ultimecia's "juntioning unto Griever" so much more meaning.

And with THAT outrageous claim, you render your ability to prove it completely impossible. You fail, good day, enjoy your biscuit.

Again, it's a theory coupled with my theory of how all the Final Fantasy games are connected. The theories are connected.

And once again, quite with the insults. We're discussing a video game. There's no reason for such a discussion to become heated.

Leaving aside that non[e] of my above is an insult, you are attempting to, in effect, rewrite the story of this game based on what amounts to your desire for the game to be deeper. You are doing so by trying to assert a patently outrageous claim- as well as the even more outrageous 'FF connection' claim- and as such, you suffer the burden of proof, and quite heavily as I might add. Since you cannot show any evidence, you fail by default. Enjoy that biscuit.[/quote]
Calm yourself. It's just a string of postulates based on a theme that I and many people saw in the game. Again, explaining the how is difficult and probably impossible, so all we are left with are postulates. Of course we can't prove these. You see, Final Fantasy in general is very open-ended, leaving plenty of room for us to use our imaginations to fill in the rest. That is exactly what I'm doing here.

I said it already: Sorceress prison. You know, like the one they put Adel in? She didn't seem to need sustainence while in it and also appeared to be in suspended animation, so that's the most obvious theory.

Even assuming that it keeps her perfectly suspended (It doesn't), Rinoa still eventually ages and dies.

I'll play a you here: do you have any proof that it does not?

Do you have any proof that it DOES? If Adel had been perfectly suspended, her power wouldn't have been able to leak out and be broadcast over the RF frequencies in dollet, now would it?[/quote]
But how do we know that her powers leaking have any connection to her body being suspended, or not suspended? It seems to be implied that her mind still worked, so perhaps the activity of her powers were connected with that rather than her body.

As to the soul-suspending thing, I think of the relationship between a sorceress and her knight to be similar to that of a summoner and her guardian in FFX, in that special bonds--love being the most obvious--gives her more power over her knight. This ties into another theory I have that all Final Fantasies are related, but that's a whole 'nother ballpark. Evidence of a sorceress having some effect over her knight's will is the flashback to when the team defeated Edea and watched as Seifer helped the newly-possessed Rinoa to her feet. He seems to be in some sort of a trance, and [/size][/font] [font=&quot][font=Verdana][size=2]acknowledges the puppeteer being as "Sorceress Ultimecia."

You DO realize she was actually using Mind Control on the boy, si?
Oh, and prove your claim that Sorcerer/Knight grants them powers. Though where are you getting the "guardian powers" thing from?

Part of this comes from my belief that Squall died at the end, and that Rinoa revived him. This is an entirely different theory, and I'll be happy to post it if need be.

Support with evidence or concede the issue. Non[e] of this question dodging.[/quote]
I'm not dodging the question. I never said anything about "guardian powers." Not once. Never said the knight is granted any power, but that the sorceress has power of the knight. Big difference.

I think GFs are exactly this: sorceresses' knights whose souls were bound to something to alter them into demons. This is based on the Doomtrain ring and the Diablos lamp, and putting this idea in motion is what makes me think that Squall was bound to the Griever ring from whence he emerged years later as Griever.

In short- No. In long- Prove it.

I cannot, of course. But can you prove that this is not the case? Once again, it's linked with my FF-connection theory.[/quote]I don't have to prove it's not the case. You have to prove it is.[/quote]
Again, it's just an idea. I have openly admitted time and time again that I cannot prove these things, so why are we still going on about this?

Yes! Exaclty my point! I--and many others--see things like this as there being more than what is apparent.

No, you're trying to make up what simply is not there.

What I'm making up is the how. Playing the game, this theme was blatantly obvious to me, whether it was intentional or not. It adds meaning to both the characters of Ultimecia and Rinoa, as well as Squall's promise. It makes one wonder how far he'll go with it.

It is 'blatantly obvious' that the sun goes 'round the earth. It is also incredibly false.[/quote]
Yes, until it was proven otherwise. Rinoa being Ultimecia obviously cannot be proven, but from what I have seen it cannot be entirely disproven, either. Yes, there are problems with it, but it leaves it in mystery. And there is where imagination comes into play.

RPGs are created for us to use our brains.

Even if Rinoa is not Ultimecia, Ultimecia represents what Rinoa has the potential to become. If not the Ultimecia, given the past of how sorceresses seem to be prone to misbehavior, the deffinitely has the potential to become an Ultimecia.

No, she has the potential to become a misbehaving sorceress.

*smacks face* That's what I meant! When people explain philosophical things, their wording is not always literal, you know. Rinoa has the potential to become everything that Ultimecia is, and that is why I chose to use the term "an Ultimecia."

Well, I've hardly tried. I've always been convinced of it and seeing this theme throughout the game--intentional or not--was always there. It's the explaination part as to how it all went down where trying come into play.

When an explanation requires far more rings than the entire corps of lanterns, it has issues, to say the least.

I believe Rinoa is Ultimecia. The things I've listed are theories, not proofs. It's really impossible to prove; but, I also believe it's impossible to entirely disprove as well. If you like, fine, we can throw out everything I've said. What we're left with is a mystery. I know Rinoa and Ulitmecia are the same person, but the how is a mystery; and therein lies the appeal.

No. The things you have listed are CLAIMS. You don't have evidence one to support them. Your overarcing claim 'Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person' is incredibly outrageous, meaning it is in parsimony's grand disfavor! And you really are giving it your damndest with that golden mean, aren't you? Guess what? The golden mean is a fallacy! If you cannot reasonably support your postulate, it has no validity! No one actually has to disprove it! The job is entirely upon YOU to back up your claims with empirical evidence.

Calm down, dude. Seriously! This is a video game discussion! It's not like I'm claiming that your mother had an affair with your uncle or anything.

What I'm trying to say is that this whole things can be ripped to shreds, but it cannot be 100% disproven. I am also encouraging you to use your imaginations! It's a wonderful thing.

[quote]

And like I said, if she is not actually Ultimecia, then Ultimecia represents a possible path that Rinoa can take if she chooses. It is a story of morality. Would she see just what is possible with her sorceress powers and attempt the same thing? And if so, would Squall stand with her as he promised, or would "his sword peirce her heart," as she said. It represents tough choices for both of them as a couple, and this is why I say there is so much more depth to FF8 than meets the eye, because we never know what the future might bring, dispite this chapter's happy ending.

You sure are making a big deal out of what is basically a standard issue as far as sorceresses go. Cid and Edea dealt with it too. This isn't depth, it's both common knowledge and procedure.

What I'm making a big deal of is the challenge to use your imagination.



EDIT: How in the hell did my quotes get messed up? I can't seem to be able to fix them, either. Bah! I think you'll understand where the quotes begin and end.

[Ryushikaze]

"Prove this. Prove that." I see no need to prove this part to you. You need to calm down and stop taking this so heatedly.

I'm not taking this heatedly. I am simply holding you to a standard- which I hold everyone to- you are not as of yet reaching.

Calm yourself. It's just a string of postulates based on a theme that I and many people saw in the game. Again, explaining the how is difficult and probably impossible, so all we are left with are postulates. Of course we can't prove these. You see, Final Fantasy in general is very open-ended, leaving plenty of room for us to use our imaginations to fill in the rest. That is exactly what I'm doing here.

So write a fanfic. Do not insist that there is something where there is not.

But how do we know that her powers leaking have any connection to her body being suspended, or not suspended? It seems to be implied that her mind still worked, so perhaps the activity of her powers were connected with that rather than her body.

The Mind is not a distinct entity from the body. The mind is in fact wholly dependent on the body. That she can even think shows that the prison is not actual stasis.

I'm not dodging the question. I never said anything about "guardian powers." Not once. Never said the knight is granted any power, but that the sorceress has power of the knight. Big difference.

I never said you said that. I said, quote "Sorcerer/Knight gives them powers" in reference to your claim that the sorceress had amazing special powers over her knight. Which you have again failed to substantiate. And actually, yes, you did say something about 'guardian powers', specificially "I think of the relationship between a sorceress and her knight to be similar to that of a summoner and her guardian in FFX, in that special bonds--love being the most obvious--gives her more power over her knight."- So, unless the mention of Summoner's guardians is a complete red herring, their inclusion implies a similar power structure.

Again, it's just an idea. I have openly admitted time and time again that I cannot prove these things, so why are we still going on about this?

Because you are trying to say that, as part of your "beneath the surface" story, it is part of FFVIII.

Yes, until it was proven otherwise. Rinoa being Ultimecia obviously cannot be proven, but from what I have seen it cannot be entirely disproven, either. Yes, there are problems with it, but it leaves it in mystery. And there is where imagination comes into play.

It doesn't have to be disproven if there isn't evidence one in favor of it being true.

RPGs are created for us to use our brains.;)

That's no excuse to claim validity for your fanfiction.

*smacks face* That's what I meant! When people explain philosophical things, their wording is not always literal, you know. Rinoa has the potential to become everything that Ultimecia is, and that is why I chose to use the term "an Ultimecia."

No, you chose the term because you're scrambling for a connection. It is not otherwise necessary. Rinoa also has the potential to become everything that Adel is, or any of the other mad sorceresses in the past. Ulti is hardly special in the 'gone mad' department.

Calm down, dude. Seriously! This is a video game discussion! It's not like I'm claiming that your mother had an affair with your uncle or anything.

No, but you ARE violating parsimony, Occam's razor, and the scientific method, and I take that nearly as seriously.

What I'm trying to say is that this whole things can be ripped to shreds, but it cannot be 100% disproven. I am also encouraging you to use your imaginations! It's a wonderful thing.

And I'M saying that the whole thing needs to be PROVEN before it counts. I'm also not saying to not use your imagination. I'm saying keep it in fanfiction where it belongs, instead of trying to rewrite the game.

What I'm making a big deal of is the challenge to use your imagination.;)

No, what you were making a big deal out of was the common worry of the Power of Hyne driving a sorceress mad and the duty of her knight to keep her from going mad or taking her down should she go mad. Your above about imagination is simply a red herring.

I shall say this again simply. I am not against using your imagination with regards to a story, but A: admit it is fanfiction and B: do not try and claim that your fanfiction makes the original story any deeper. It doesn't. It as a whole may be far deeper than the original, but it does not actually change the original story any more than that SquallX Bahamut Yaoi fic over there does.

[Strawberry_Mew]

I would say that it is underrated but FF8 always holds a special place in my heart it was my first final fantasy I gotta love my dad for buyin it for me the pc version <3

[chrisfffan]

I would say that it is underrated but FF8 always holds a special place in my heart it was my first final fantasy I gotta love my dad for buyin it for me the pc version <3

it was the first FF game I got too I wonder what version is the best PC or Playstation? Is the PC version better?

[Odaisé Gaelach]

it was the first FF game I got too I wonder what version is the best PC or Playstation? Is the PC version better?

I've never played the PC version, but from what I hear it can be a little buggy. So the Playstation version is the way to go.

[chrisfffan]

it was the first FF game I got too I wonder what version is the best PC or Playstation? Is the PC version better?

I've never played the PC version, but from what I hear it can be a little buggy. So the Playstation version is the way to go.

I don’t know how the PC versions could be better for any final fantasy games but I could be wrong!

[PuPu]

Hey Anarcus, I just want to know, what's your explanation for Rinoa getting Angel Wing after she was possessed by Ultimecia? This reason right here is one of the reasons I don't believe R=U, since Rinoa never got her sorceress powers until after she was possessed by Ultimecia.

[Odaisé Gaelach]

I don’t know how the PC versions could be better for any final fantasy games but I could be wrong!

Higher resolutions and better graphics, perhaps?

Playing Final Fantasy with a keyboard might not be much fun though...

Anyway, back on topic! Gamespot have a bunch of FFVIII reviews from many other websites. Bar one, the reviews are all completely positive.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/final....html?mode=web

[chrisfffan]

I don’t know how the PC versions could be better for any final fantasy games but I could be wrong!

Higher resolutions and better graphics, perhaps?

Playing Final Fantasy with a keyboard might not be much fun though...

Anyway, back on topic! Gamespot have a bunch of FFVIII reviews from many other websites. Bar one, the reviews are all completely positive.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/final....html?mode=web

I don’t think the reviews alone prove the game is underrated or not and it depends what people mean by underrated i think its underrated compared to 7 and X

[Goldenboko]

I don’t know how the PC versions could be better for any final fantasy games but I could be wrong!

Higher resolutions and better graphics, perhaps?

Playing Final Fantasy with a keyboard might not be much fun though...

Anyway, back on topic! Gamespot have a bunch of FFVIII reviews from many other websites. Bar one, the reviews are all completely positive.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/final....html?mode=web

I don’t think the reviews alone prove the game is underrated or not and it depends what people mean by underrated i think its underrated compared to 7 and X

First off every FF game is underrated compared to FFVII, which is basically a known fact. Second off I'd say VIII has more fans the FFX dispite being far weaker storyline and gameplay wise.

[Disco Potato]

I done a forum a while ago saying this was the best final fantasy some people agreed but I think its one of the most underrated games ever! the graphics, story and the game play are very good but I think because 7 was so good people wanted a sequel to it not a totally different story who agrees?

I think as its own game it's not bad at all, but compared to other FFs it's definitely not as good. I'm not saying I think it's bad, but just that every other FF I've played is better

I don't think people necessarily wanted a sequel to FF7, but rather a game of FF7's quality (or the quality that they perceived FF7 to have).

[chrisfffan]

I done a forum a while ago saying this was the best final fantasy some people agreed but I think its one of the most underrated games ever! the graphics, story and the game play are very good but I think because 7 was so good people wanted a sequel to it not a totally different story who agrees?

I think as its own game it's not bad at all, but compared to other FFs it's definitely not as good. I'm not saying I think it's bad, but just that every other FF I've played is better

I don't think people necessarily wanted a sequel to FF7, but rather a game of FF7's quality (or the quality that they perceived FF7 to have).

Well everyone has their opinion of the best FF games and the worsted but I think FF7 and FF8 are on a par for different reasons.

The 3 great things about Final Fantasy 7
1. (The Bad Guys) in 8 their isn’t any really good bad guys in 7 theirs lots Sephiroth and the Shinra.
2. (The flower girls death) its not that I didn’t like her but her death made the story much more strong!
3. (The darkness) I think 7 is the darkness FF

The 3 great things about 8
1. (Squall) he’s up there with the best characters in the Final Fantasy series his gun blade is cool! but his character development is why I think he is, originally he’s a shy guy who doesn’t want to get to know anyone because he’s concentrating on becoming SeeD but when he comes out of his shell you see he’s not such a bad guy.

2. (The graphics) compared to 7 they are far better! In battle and everything else but you could say that about X now.

3. (The dream world) a lot of people were put off by the dream world with Laguna, Ward and Kiros but I think its one of the things that makes the game great! It gives the story another dimension.

[Lynx]

Best Final Fantasy game ever, and deffinitely underrated. I've noticed that really smart people who are deep thinkers tend to enjoy FF8. I guess we see something much deeper in it than is apparent on the surface.

no. what everyone sees in FFVIII is a strong love story . you dont have to be smart to see that. infact i think the really smart people will see past the love story and see how ultimecia had no reason for trying to control the world in the past and future or whatever she was trying to do. bottom line is it didnt make much sense. the ending didnt even make any sense. theres so much in the game that doesnt make sense. i mean serioursly i gotta tell you when i get pierced with sharp ice i dont wake up without a scratch. also if i remember correctly the last battle was fought with everyone and yet only squall went through the wierd hallucinations at the end. oh and lets not forget other parts of the game that didnt make sense. ellone and her magical powers that she has for no reason at all. and how useing her powers they can make a time machine umm no. also makeing monster levels increase as yours does defeats the purpose of leveling up.

and as for the R=U theory if anything i would think it should be ellone= rinoa. when sorcerors die they gove there powers to someone else who knows in the future someone might have given it to ellone i mean after all she had time powers and ultimecia could control people in the past makes the most sense to me.

the characters are some of the most boreing characters ive seen too. squall = emo, zell acts like hes 7 years old. rinoa is just a plain old girl minus a personality. selphie hyper idiot, quistis again someone without a personality. irvine probably the onyl half cool character too bad hes a pervy kinda guy or else hed be much better.

now despite all this i didnt hate this game. i enjoyed it but its more towards the bottom of my list but in no way is it the bottom game. infact i think the gunblade is one of the coolest weapons in final fantasy. and the ragnarok airship is pretty cool. if any game is the most underrated final fantasy is final fantasy IX most people dont like it cause zidane is kinda wierd looking, short big hair kinda characatured (if thats how you spell it) has a tail. but the story is awesome and makes a lot more sense then FFVIII. sorry FFVIII is overrated.


on point of the topic i dont think this game is underrated its probably the 2nd most popular final fantasy.

[Ryushikaze]

i mean serioursly i gotta tell you when i get pierced with sharp ice i dont wake up without a scratch.

Yes, but you don't live in a world with access to magical healing.

ellone and her magical powers that she has for no reason at all. and how useing her powers they can make a time machine umm no.

While I agree they should have tried to give a reason for her powers, that they could replicate the effect after intensive study actually isn't actually all that out there. In Ellone they have a 'proof of concept', and a handy example that they can reverse engineer- well, reverse engineer based on her CAT scans and other data- even if it takes ages and ages to make the mechanism worthwhile. What's kind of out there was the speed at which Odine was able to go from first observation to working model, even if the model was little more than a toy.

Otherwise, I largely agree.