Sequelitis

[VengefulRonin]

I don't really care for sequels to games. Last Order was pretty good but it contained stuff that should have been in the game to begin with. It felt like they were trying to fix the plot holes in FFVII's plot.FFX-2 was an abomination to God and mankind. It ruined the Job class system, a feat I never thought possible. That alone makes it worthy of condement. I won't even bother going into it's purely irrelevant plot.


I don't think the sequels/side games of FFXII are going to fix your problems with FFXII, Timerk and Renmiri. It seems to be focusing more on Vaan and Penelo visiting a new set of lands so I doubt we'll see anything new. Of anything, it will set you up with a new cast of characters that it will focus on purely since the writer's probably feel there is no point in exploring the returning casts pasts.

I see the sequels as nothing more than a way to milk money cause SE has lost all it's real creative people. They now have to fall back on whoring out old games, or making sequels of established smash hits, in order to stay ahead in the buisness. The last game they ever released that was not helped by their main franchises was Drag-On Dragoon (I refuse to call it by it's other name). Enix has lost all it's real players, Square has lost almost all of it's talented staff. When you think about how Square's last completely original game was The Bouncer, it seems rather sad. I don't know what's going on at SE HQ, but they need to get their act together and try to either get back their old talent or start gambling on finding new talent by tapping into whoever is left.

X-2 is a worthless pile of exrement in my opinion. X was an okay game, and X-2 slaughtered it.

And no, RW will not focus on Fran or Ashe or anyone else who was cool, its for Vaan and Penelo. Look at all the art and crap we've seen for it, and it makes the two look even kiddier and stupid than they already do.

Drakenguard isnt even that good.....its fun for about the first 10 minutes, until you realize you'll be spending a good hour on one level mindlessly hacking up enemies.

Whats going on with SE is just what you said, they're milking their games for all they're worth, especially VII. The name "Final Fantasy" is known for quality, so SE knows that they can churn out anything, even if its rat feces, and if they stick the name "Final Fantasy" to it then people will buy it.

Amano is doing less and less work with them, all he's been able to do is draw secondary sketches of nomura's characters, and i'm pretty sure he doesnt like being second-hand when he's been drawing ever since the first FF. Uematsu didnt do the soundtrack for XII (although that might have to do SE trying to keep the feel of the ivalice in the original Tactics)...and....

I fear for SE... T_T

[LazarCotoron]

"Twas hubris which felled the gods and humbled them into men."

I reserve judgement on SE for a while away from here... But I thought I'd heard somewhere that Uematsu and Amano had left SE and were only doing projects for them on a contract basis?

It's not either of those companies anymore. It's going to turn into EA-except they do RPGs.

[VengefulRonin]

Oh they left? Not surprised....amano was being way held back, and i think Uematsu was too, since the X soundtrack isnt near as good as others.

Oh boy... SE is gonna be the RPG version of EA -__-

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I just wished FF XII had a bigger plot. For me the game had a decent size plot but was stretched out way too much. The reason I have this feeling is because at times you are just going through an area for a bloody hour, wondering when the next plot advancement going to be. With other games, I do not remember having this feeling of getting bored with an area but finishing it just to get farther in the plot. I think because the world of Ivalice is so vast in this game and the graphics much better that other aspects had to suffer due to just not having enough room on one disc. *thinks it should have been multi-disced* They could have given the espers a much more better explanation. I mean there are twelve of these beasts, 2 of them are directly related somehow to the plot and characters as the other three simply appear as antagonist (the first two were also antagonist, but they also had ties with Raithwall). Since I love summons, I was disappointed that they were given so little explanation. Personally I like plot twists and convolutions within the plot. I think the most surprising part was that (SPOILER)Vossalar somewhat turned on you. Besides that, there was not much surprised. I mean Vayne (SPOILER)as the final boss was somewhat obvious and his actions were somewhat predictable.

As for sequels, I hope they continue to do a decent job with Kingdom Hearts, I love that series.

As for Final Fantasy games, I agree that they are just fishing for money. Especially with all the FF VII related games. Most of the time I see sequels as basic jabs for more and more money from something that did well. Kinda like turning controversial books into horrid movies or making stupid games based on the latest movie. It is annoying.

[LazarCotoron]

Let's see, blah blah blah, whiney moan, ah, here we go:

...aspects had to suffer due to just not having enough room on one disc. *thinks it should have been multi-disced* They could have given the espers a much more better explanation. I mean there are twelve of these beasts, 2 of them are directly related somehow to the plot and characters as the other three simply appear as antagonist (the first two were also antagonist, but they also had ties with Raithwall). Since I love summons, I was disappointed...

Especially with all the FF VII related games. Most of the time I see sequels as basic jabs for more and more money from something that did well. Kinda like turning controversial books into horrid movies or making stupid games based on the latest movie. It is annoying.

First off, just to touch on the FFVII front-I'm one of the first people to rush over to FFVII and smack it around some, but Advent Children almost made up for it. More than that, it out and out murdered 'The Spirits Within'. I'd like to see more original territory than FFVII covered, but if they want to explore that universe, that is their choice.

Now, the other thing... oh my god, you poor dear, your summoned monsters aren't explained. Uh... maybe I'm a little off on the concept, but weren't the only games that was really explained in FFVIII and FFX?...

Oh, nevermind, I just solved the problem. You're one of 'them'. And for reference, the 'explanation' in those two titles is, well, BAD in FFX, and in FFVIII... In FFVIII, if they woulda' focused on that, FFVIII probably would've been a GREAT game. Course, if you had played FF Tactics, you would know what each of those monsters is and what they stand for. I'm probably one of a very few people here who is disturbed you are summoning the Lucavi-and they are letting you.

As for FFXII being on two discs, if you would've done some simple research (such as dropping the disc in your DVD drive), you'd notice that the game takes up 3.78 gigs out of a 4.5 gig disc. Extra discs = more impressive = more hype = theortically more money. And I guess if you want to get into the nitty gritty technicalities of things, everything about FFXII you should know IS on other discs. In fact, two PSX discs and one GBA cartridge.

Which segues nicely into that games, when published by up and coming megacorps, are about the lavish riches they can bring.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I did not say I did not enjoy Advent Children. I liked it, not something I would watch often but it was enjoyable. It is their choice to do it, of course it is, does not stop me from not liking their choices.

FF VI also. In FF VII they need not an explanation in my opinion since they were not part of the plot plus they came from materia so it really did not need an explanation in my opinion. As for FF VIII I could not get past disc two for it did not keep my interest. FF IX, been a while since I played it, but the summons were a part of the story, though I cannot remember for the life of me if they explained them or not. Been a few years since I bothered to touch the game. As for FF X, well yeah they were explained. I just figure if you are going to put something like summons into the plot that it should have more background. I did said that I really like summons and the idea of summonings, that is why I would have like more on them, simply personal taste.

Yeah, I played Tactics and I know Belias looks like Lucavi. Why be disturbed that you are summoning him? I mean they are not the same creatures as far as I am aware of. If you want to be worrisome about summons, think of Fenrir who is suppose to swallow the sun and bite a junk out of the moon according to Norse legends. Cerberus? The guardian of Hades, three heads and only can be tamed by honey cakes. I could go on about the mischievous creatures that appear throughout various games.

Why would I put my PS2 game in my disc drive? Okay, so there was extra room, then they could have made a bit more plot wise. I am allowed to have an opinion, whether you agree with it or not. Just because I do not care for a few aspects of the games doesn't mean I do not like the game itself.

[Wolf Kanno]

To be honest, Only FFX had any back story on the summons, and most of their back story was optional. You could only learn about their pasts, if you did the obnoxious side quest to get the Magus Sisters. Read the Clan Primer in FFXII if you want backstory on the Espers and world...

Most of the time, they are just "magical beasts" that you beat into submission and they join you...

Now FFVI sorta've gives a back story on them, but the game makes it pretty clear they are not really important as characters, as much as a plot device.

Also, I enjoyed FFXII's dungeons and worlds. For once I didn't feel like they were just a short, pointless game mechanic to get me from Custscene A to Cutscene B. For once, I actually played an RPG instead of just sitting back and watching. It's been a major complaint about RPG's ever since the
PS1 era.

[LazarCotoron]

Why would I think they're the Lucavi?

If you snagged the directors edition, check the interviews with the directors. One of them specifically states that the summons were the Lucavi brought back from Tactics. And as to why I find that disturbing, that goes back to Tactics. I seem to remember something about twelve key people called the Zodiac Braves who used the power of the Zodiac Stones to bring the world back to order...

Twelve people, twelve stones... Toss in the way history gets clouded over with a lot of time, add in the fact that the world of FFXII seems to be the same world that created the airships and 'guns' of the city of Goug, and you can ramp up a theory pretty quick here. Toss in some charismatic prat to step in and take all the credit, and you have the makings of an evil church trying to vie for control of the world by forcing puppet kings to take the thrones.

As for my opinion, well, I like to think about the material involved. I also consider the people responsible, their likes, feelings, thoughts, and the way they roll. Matsuno and his team, even though it sounds like they ditched SE during production of FFXII are still responsible for this game, and that means there is a long and complicated history to everything that has gone on. Read the Clan Primer as opposed to letting your eyes glaze over, and you can start to make connections of your own.

Besides that, on the summons front, every game has the summons, and most of them inexplicably have the same summons. Mix it with magic, and... you need an explanation for that?

You're right, you can disagree with the choices being made with the material. What's really ticking me off is that this thread sounds like a Star Wars or Star Trek fan forum thread with people whining about what a company is doing with 'their' series. I may not be entirely clear on copy right laws and the like, but last I checked, the intellectual property rights belong to the company that fronted the money, and to a lesser extent, the people who made the project come to life. That's what I don't get here-it's not my series, it's not your series, it's SE's property. And like I said elsewhere, I really think SE is turning into an EA that makes RPG's.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

*loses half his post* -__-;

Anyways, what I was saying was not that I did not see the connection but rather why you were so disturb with this particular set of summoning creatures. I know the Lucavi were pretty evil, but if you consider what other mythos the typical summons are pulled from they are not that nice either. That was what I was getting at. I am aware of the connection or the possible connection. There was a site I read once, in French (so I skimmed fast), where it connected FF T, FF TA, FF XII and Vagrant Story (I think) in one timeline.

What was written in the Clan Primer did not suffice me. I wanted to know more. In general I love mythology and the such, so that is probably why I am usually drawn to summons, even if they are weak at times.

I never once thought it was my series, I just gave what I thought was missing from it.

[LazarCotoron]

Then, consider this for a moment. And now that we have some common ground, this should be easier.

I love mythology too, but video games are all incomplete sources of it. The world of Ivalice however, is spread over FFT, Vagrant Story, FFTA, and FFXII now. The mythology is there, and it is wonderful-in THAT regard, I am entirely with you-no matter how much is FFXII, I doubt I will be satisfied.

It's just that for me, I've decided to be more pro-active than whine about what a company does or doesn't do-been there, did that, hated it, y'know? I GM-game master for those of you who don't know this term-and I create my own setting based off of elements that I like. I can honestly tell you I have a setting that is entirely 100% as free of influence as a fantasy setting can be from D&D, Final Fantasy, and Lord of the Rings. But I would never have developed it if I sat around waiting for a sequel to my beloved FF Tactics and FFIX.

User created content has value-we create the value of 'Final Fantasy', not the other way around. Without us, 'Final Fantasy' is a name and some pretty pictures.

I just feel there's more constructive things to do than complain, so when I see things like this... It really makes me want to go around and club everyone in the head.

[LunarWeaver]

Lots of people have said the plot is thin, so you have lots of clubbing to do. I don't think whining about people whining is any better. It's a forum made to hold conversation and express what you do and do not like about Final Fantasy games, that includes good and bad. If you feel there are more constructive things to do than speak about the game's faults, then why are you here? The mods just can't ban everyone who disliked a game to ensure all opinions are positive for all time. That's the way it goes on the crazy intrawebz.

Edit: And before you quote me and say "I'm expressing myself too so I fit into your point," you're just being mad at everybody for not liking the game as much as you do, and that's not talking about the game that's just being grouchy.

Edit2: Wasn't this about sequels or something, what the hell am I even talking about. *goes to play pong*

[LazarCotoron]

Probably because I'm clinically insane on many levels.

Possibly because I believe we can get to something of real value if we ask the questions and say the things that we're afraid to ask and afraid to say. Goes back to the 'insane' thing though, don't it?

Course, that's my world view. Believe it or not Lunar, I respect -anyone- who goes a few rounds with me in posts. People who's arguments are 'it was dumb and I didn't like it'... well golly gosh gee, why do you feel that way? The word forum comes from Rome, and it is the place where the Roman senate debated issues. I give that this is far more trivial-but if someone says there's a problem, then there's an issue. The nature of complaints is an interesting thing.

If perchance I am at the center of a stated problem and thusly am an issue, ask me to leave. Tell me to leave. I'm not being gentle, and I'm old enough to realize that.

[LunarWeaver]

Hey, it's not up to me if you stay or leave chief, I'm just a nobody.

I think debate is good, and I think you have valid points, I just think you're taking too far =/ Like crossing into flaming territory, and that's bad juju.

Phew, well I feel all sparkly now. Anyway, back on topic, the sequel thing... I still stand by whatever I said earlier. You know, about Square being a company so that's how it's gonna go and all that stuff. I don't see why some franchises like Kingdom Hearts get fans begging for sequels and Final Fantasy doesn't.

Maybe because the series is setup to be independent sequel after sequel already, so sequels to sequels seems a bit far. I get that, but what can I say, I'm just a whore for more. Well, sometimes...X-2 had major flaws, but I liked Advent Children a lot, and I liked Tactics Advance more than most...if it's gonna go the Dirge of Cerberus route then maybe not so much with that.

[Mirage]

I dont like it very much...X-2 sucked ass, the others have been decent (except DoC, i heard that wasnt very good either). But what concerns me is that in their money whoring, Sqeenix will stop focusing on their quality. If they spread things out over several games and spin-offs, the stories will become less and less tightly woven and quality will be traded off for flashy graphics and half-nekkid chicks in bondage clothes. Not that any of that is an eyesore <.< I'm just saying they'll begin to focus more and more on simple aesthetics and concentrate less and less on a good story...XII being the perfect example.

Uh, except DoC and X-2? Which ones are you talking about?

[Wolf Kanno]

I think there will now be more pressure on the writers to 'save something' for the sequel,

I don't want to have to buy RW to get the answers to questions I should have gotten in XII, and I don't want to have a story spread thin over three titles when it could have been told in one.

Going back on topic...

This right here is my major worry, cause I've seen it happen... I know I should stick to at least SE games but this one stems from one. It was called Xenosaga. When Xenosaga episode I was first announced, they had a beautiful 8 min. trailer. Now what some may not know, is if you watch the trailer, it containes scene's from Episode II of the series as well (It also had a few more blatant references to Xenogears but we won't go there...).

A lot of Xeno fans were disappointed they only got what felt to them to be "half a game". Now episode II comes out and we have a lot of internal conflict with the developers and next theing you know, half the staff is fired or quits. One of the main writer's, after Episode II was released to less than steller reviews and fan outrage, reveals that the plot to the game was cut. She revealed major plot points that were supposed to be in the game that were cut out, cause the company "wanted to save something for the sequel". Consequently, all the stuff she mentioned actually does happen in Episode III. In fact, if all of it had been kept in Ep II, Ep.III wouldn't have any story at all.

.hack was a marketing ploy but this was supposed to be a series that spanned thousand's of years so there was always room for an actual sequel, just not with the entire cast. This kind of bull killed that series and I would hate to see another company try to pull this stunt.

I will base my opinions on sequel material based on what I see for myself. I didn't like FFX-2, even though I went into that game knowing I was going to probably not like it and god did it even destroy those standards. :rolleyes2 But I actually Liked Advent Children, even though I'm not a big fan of FFVII (too many plotholes ) I felt that AC at least focused on something that I never felt was resolved in the main story (Cloud's guilt at failing to save Aerith), so I walked away from it feeling like the sequel was a good thing.

It can be good, it can be bad. I think we'll have to wait and see. Personally, RW doesn't exactly interest me so I may end up passing on it.