The True Nature and Intentions of Sephiroth [Spoilers]

[feioncastor]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

[blackmage_nuke]

Nibelheim did burn down, if you go there after the reunion (i think after that) and talk to them they say they were hired ( i forgot by who) to pretend nothing happened so they could study the behavior of those little black things with number tattoo's on them. they rebuilt the town to study thier behaviour too.

Vincent was Lucrecia's boyfriend or something, he was also one of the turks with them when they were doing all that research in Nibelheim before you met him.

And i believe Hitler thought he was doing the right thing when doing all that killing and genocide. (but i didnt really pay attention in history class so im not sure)

[evaile=B.mage]-[/evaile]

[Avarice-ness]

So when he refers to mother as Jenova he's talking about himself?

If so that makes it even more creepy then it previously was.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts.

That's true in any situation. The great evil of anything can be interperted as a good source. Most things or people do not unite until a great destruction becomes present, Sephiroth threatens the world, people unite to fight against him, they wouldn't have united unless the world was threatened, in a way if it wasn't for any villain in anything or any great disaster that happened the world would never need saving meaning the people who would come together and work as a team to save it. They would go along doing their own seperate thing never having to rely on the idea of group work. In a way, evil and destruction are the only ways to get people to see that they arn't just a single person in this world. Sure the good guys save it, but no one would have to unite unless there was a reason.

[Ryushikaze]

No, Sephiroth was the same person who jumped into the stream in Nibleheim, AND he was in charge. This is official, so you can't really argue with it.

And his entire purpose is to become a god, or at least it was after he learned what the truth of what had been done to him had been done and the resentment set in.

As for Cloud replacing Zack in his stories, he had a bad case of dementia after being used as a guinea pig by Hojo for four years, and replaced himself with Zack as part of his ad hoc mind to give himself some 'positive' memories. It's damn impressive he was able to recreate his mind at all, really.
On the same note, it was Zack Tifa talked with. Cloud was too ashamed to let her know he came back, though she would have apparently been overjoyed to learn he had been there.

[The Crystal]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

It seems that you didn't understand some things. In Nibelheim, Sephiroth was exactly like you said. A guy that wanted to avenge the Cetras because the humans killed them. He wanted to do this, because he thought that he and Jenova were Cetras too. BUT what you have to understand(and remember) is that after Sephiroth jumped(retconned in LO) in the Lifestream(in Nibelheim) he learned many things in the Lifestream, and gained the knowledge of it. And with the knowledge of the Lifestream, he learned about Jenova's true nature(a "calamity from the skies"(alien) capable of controlling its cells(Reunion), that killed the Cetra), like you can see her:

"Cloud: Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: Being here brings back memories. Are you going to participate in the Reunion?

Cloud: I don't even know what a Reunion is!

Sephiroth: Jenova will be at the Reunion. Jenova will join the Reunion becoming a calamity from the skies.

Cloud: Jenova, a calamity from the skies? You mean she wasn't an Ancient!?

Sephiroth: ...I see. I don't think you have the right to participate. I will go North past Mt. Nibel. If you wish to find out... then follow...

Cloud: ...Reunion? Calamity from the skies?"

Sephiroth already know that he and Jenova aren't Cetras, and he don't want to avenge them(the Cetras) anymore. What he want to do, is absorb all the Lifestream of the planet and become a god. But if he absorb the lifeforce of the planet, the planet and all living beings in it, will die.
And do you think that Sephiroth don't know this? Of course that he know, but he don't care. He just want to become a god, and will use anyone to do it, even his "mother" Jenova(the Ultimania Omega Guide said that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova's body with the power of his will).
Sephiroth don't care about the humans, the Cetra, and even Jenova, he only care for himself. He is evil and don't have any "good intentions". He want to become a god, and will kill anyone in his way to achieve this. Simple as that.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

Vincent was a Turk that fell in love with Lucrecia, but she choosed Hojo. Then, she became pregnant of Sephiroth, and both of them decided to inject Jenova cells inside of Sephiroth's body, as a part of an experiment.
In the begining, Gast(that was working in the project), Hojo, and Lucrecia, thought that Jenova was a Cetra, and wanted to make Sephiroth be like a Cetra, to help Shinra to find the Promised Land. But after some time, they discovered the true nature of Jenova, and discovered that her cells enhance human's capabilitys, because Sephiroth was becoming more and more powerful. Because of this, Shinra begun to inject Jenova cells in SOLDIERs.
Gast was the guy who found Jenova, and was part of the Jenova Project, with Hojo.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

Sephiroth burned the town, but after this, Shinra tryed to hide the incident of everyone else, and because of this, they build all the city again, exactly like it was before being burned. Then they put actors in it, to pretend that they allways lived in Nibelheim, and pretend that nothing happened.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

After the Nibelheim incident, both Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did this, because he wanted to test his theory about the Reunion. Hojo knew that the Reunion would happen, and because of this, he injected Jenova cells in the citizens of Nibelheim that survived Sephiroth's attack, to study them and the Reunion process(these people were the black cape guys/girls). Zack and Cloud were part of this experiment.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

Because of the experiments in Nibelheim. Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells and Mako, and this made Zacks memories go to Cloud's mind. And because of Cloud's weak mind, and his desire to become a SOLDIER, he convinced himself that that memories were his owns, and he was a SOLDIER.
And Tifa knew that Cloud was there, because of the retconn in Last Order. But the explanation of why she didn't told Cloud during the game, is not revealed.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? Their come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

If i remember well, they were created to fight against Jenova, but she was sealed, before their activation, and because of this, they weren't used. But is like you said, they are the planet's self mechanism of defense. Their objective is to destroy everything that is harming the planet.

And is true that you played the game many times? Because some of these questions are very well explained in the game, and i don't understand how you could have missed them.

[feioncastor]

Yes, I have played through FF7 a good 5 times or so. But I haven't played it for about 5 or 6 years because someone stole my Disc 1. I've wanted to start a New Game and go through the whole thing again, but as I said, I can't.

[NeoCracker]

The fact that Sephiroth is in control kind of killed part of the game for me. It doesn't make much sense that He now seems to want the exact same thing Jenova wanted.

[The Crystal]

The fact that Sephiroth is in control kind of killed part of the game for me. It doesn't make much sense that He now seems to want the exact same thing Jenova wanted.

Jenova wanted to kill all the living beings in the planet, but Sephiroth wanted to absorb the Lifestream and become a god. I don't think that they have the same objectives.

[Ryushikaze]

After the Nibelheim incident, both Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells. Hojo did this, because he wanted to test his theory about the Reunion. Hojo knew that the Reunion would happen, and because of this, he injected Jenova cells in the citizens of Nibelheim that survived Sephiroth's attack, to study them and the Reunion process(these people were the black cape guys/girls). Zack and Cloud were part of this experiment.

Actually, Zack already had a Jenova injection before being captured from being a soldier, which probably explains why he was largely unresponsive to the injections and mako showering.

Because of the experiments in Nibelheim. Cloud and Zack were injected with Jenova cells and Mako, and this made Zacks memories go to Cloud's mind. And because of Cloud's weak mind, and his desire to become a SOLDIER, he convinced himself that that memories were his owns, and he was a SOLDIER.

I'd always viewed it as a defense mechanism than anything else, really. He didn't mean to replace himself with Zack conciously, but since Zack had been telling him all these stories, and because Zack represented what he wanted to be, he took the image of Zack and made it his image to give himself an anchor while his real mind restored itself. It might have worked too, if not for Sephiroth's interference.

And Tifa knew that Cloud was there, because of the retconn in Last Order. But the explanation of why she didn't told Cloud during the game, is not revealed.

Actually, I don't think she remembered seeing him. Her expression in LO is slightly glazed, and given that she had just taken some serious blunt force trauma, her long term memory might be on the fritz. She does have a history of not remembering the moments just before a serious accident, such as the falling incident when she was eight.

[~Storm Ninja~]

an example of this is when sephiroth encased in materia (or whatever hardened lifestream is in that case) is hanging from the ceiling of a room in the northern crater area and cloud goes crazy and stuff. That sephiroth is distictly different from the other, as I can't picture sephiroth being encased in a crystal for no reason.

Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the "evil" world destroying sephiroth there at the same time? my memory could be bad, but i'm just bringing this up.

if i remember correctly:

SOLDIER sephiroth was human. Then he went crazy. Then the events of last order, with cloud getting impaled, etc, sephiroth falling into the lifestream, occured.

Lucrecia agreed to participate in an experiment where she would mother a child, that would be injected with jenova cells as a fetus. I can't recall if this was a sephiroth clone, or the sephiroth they had attempted to clone many times afterward. I am confused.

What does vincent have to do with this? well, I belive this is while vincent was being experimented on to create the badass, shapeshifting ex-turk we know and love. Its all in DoC.

So "jenova" sephiroth, led to belive his mother's name was Jenova, discovered a bunch of stuff, decided to destroy the planet, and turned into the seven winged Safer Sephiroth, and got killed. Probably by omnislash.

that's all I know.

Except one last thing: the human sephiroth, at least i belive so, is the crystalized being hanging upside down in the northern crater, who may have been dropped off there because the lifestream was flowing to the northern crater to "heal its wounds".

EDIT: to make everything totally clear, I don't know if there was another one or something, but I belive that cloud, at least the playable one, is one of the many failed sephiroth clones I mentioned earlier. The rest of the clones were those black... things. That is why cloud is occasionally under Sephiroth's control. It would be helpful if someone could look up the story on gamefaq's or wikipedia or something.

[Avarice-ness]

Okay what if the only reason Sephiroth lived was because Jenova wanted him too and they can both be sephiroth -and- Jenova. If Sephiroth can control Cloud (when he makes him try to kill Aeris) then why couldn't Jenova just be doing the same thing to him. Since Sephiroth wants to be obscenely close to 'mother' he wouldn't have any objections to being controlled.

[~Storm Ninja~]

It is my belief that Jenova simply dosen't have this power, or chooses not to exercise it. However, Sephiroth takes full advantage of his clone "brother" cloud as seen in numerous scenes. As to the "both sephiroth and Jenova" thing, well, this is getting really weird. Sephiroth and jenova are different beings, however sephiroth has jenova cells, which make him all freaky and stuff. Don't flame if you disagree, but I think that just kinda popped up at random.

[The Crystal]

Actually, Zack already had a Jenova injection before being captured from being a soldier, which probably explains why he was largely unresponsive to the injections and mako showering.

Yeah i know, but this didn't stoped Hojo of experimented him again. I remember that in the flashback, we see Cloud AND Zack inside the Mako pods.

I'd always viewed it as a defense mechanism than anything else, really. He didn't mean to replace himself with Zack conciously, but since Zack had been telling him all these stories, and because Zack represented what he wanted to be, he took the image of Zack and made it his image to give himself an anchor while his real mind restored itself. It might have worked too, if not for Sephiroth's interference.

I don't think that was a defense mechanism created by his mind, by just hearing Zack's stories. The Lifestream is formed by many memories, and if someone is inside of it for much time, this someone can begin to absorb the memories of others and lose his/her identity(i think that this was stated by Aerith in "Maiden", when Cloud and Tifa fell in the Lifestream, in Mideel). I think that this is what happened. Cloud thought that he was Zack, not because of some stories that he just heard, but because he "absorbed" Zack's memories in the Mako pod, because of the Lifestream, and maybe, even because of Jenova cells.

Actually, I don't think she remembered seeing him. Her expression in LO is slightly glazed, and given that she had just taken some serious blunt force trauma, her long term memory might be on the fritz. She does have a history of not remembering the moments just before a serious accident, such as the falling incident when she was eight.

I'm expectin SE to answer why she didn't told Cloud, but if they don't, i will accept what you are saying, because this make sense.

[Ryushikaze]

Sephiroth and Jenova are the same being. They are both Sephiroth. Jenova, if it ever had a mind, was braindead by the time of FF7, and Sephiroth now wields it as a puppet. This is the 'sephiroth' you see throughout the game.

Sephiroth is Lucrecia's child, experimented on in the womb.

Sephiroth copies (clones was a botch by Sony) are people who have had the same procedure that was performed on fetal Sephiroth performed on them. They are not genetic duplicates, and Cloud and Sephiroth are not at all related.

[~Storm Ninja~]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony, there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths
2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.