United States: One Nation under ...??...

[Jebus]

Its a conundrom. Our forefathers were christain, whom wanted to [strike]make a haven for freedom to worship[/strike] make more money for the English empire.

Why does everybody think America was founded on Puritan principles? Roanoke and Jamestown were the first English settlements in America, and they were there for Financial reasons by the Virginia company. Same reason the Massachusetts Bay colony was founded, and most of the other colonies, not counting Plymouth.

Not only that, but the majority of the founding fathers were Deists (Not in the general believing in a god sense, but in the "a god created everything, but he hasn't done anything for years, sense,) with the notable exceptions (there are others, but these are the more famous)of Jay, Washington, and Franklin (Quaker). Not only that, but (excluding Washington) the first presidents, up to Jackson I think, were Deists of the Enlightenment variety.

America was founded to preserve people's life, libery and pursuit of happiness (property), and therefore establishes freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

As for leaving it up to tradition, why don't we just leave slavery up to tradition? Why didn't we make the USA a monarchy because of tradition? Traditions are the remnants of values that no longer hold sway in the modern world.

Anyway, the original pledge, as written by Francis Bellamy, is:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Of course this doesn't make it any better for it to be teacher led, take up school time, etc, but I felt that it should at least be posted in here.

[DarkLadyNyara]

Thomas Jefferson was an Athiest.

Not atheist, diest.

[Sasquatch]

If people feel something isn't right, they work to change it. It's called "PROGRESS". You should look into it.

Not all change is progress. Just to let you know.

Why does everybody think America was founded on Puritan principles? Roanoke and Jamestown were the first English settlements in America, and they were there for Financial reasons by the Virginia company. Same reason the Massachusetts Bay colony was founded, and most of the other colonies, not counting Plymouth.

The first settlements, yes, were founded as financial colonies. The country was founded, and populated, on religious principles.

America was founded to preserve people's life, libery and pursuit of happiness (property), and therefore establishes freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

Wrong again. Not to preserve life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness -- by the way, property has nothing to do with it -- but to preserve our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does it establish that we shall be free of any encounter with something that offends or inconveniences us. And when the U.S. Constitution and all fifty State Constitutions mention God (that was another thing these schmucks wanted to do, rewrite all the Constitutions), it's pretty hard to say religious beliefs didn't have a huge part in this country's founding.

[bipper]

Actually, quite a few of them were Diest.

/sigh - no they were not. I have had this debate before, and despite a bunch of skewed view points, they were not in anyway deist. As not to skew this entire debate out of order, you can pm me if you really want proof.

By the way, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are the only two that most histroians would even consider to be diest (With remote relevence that is.)

Jebus, keep my post in context. I said our forefathers, not the people whom set up the first settlements. There is a huge difference between the first settlers and the historic grouping known as 'our forefathers'

Bipper

[Jebus]

Yeah, I guess it was out of context, although the first settlers could still be considered forefathers of a sort, since they did found Virginia.

Also, it's true most of the fathers were Deist. Madison was one of the biggest Deists there. He actually would've been an atheist himself if Jefferson hadn't convinced him otherwise. Or was it the other way around...

Either way. America as a country was founded on Enlightenment principles of the right (for once Sasquatch was right about something, I meant to put "right to" in my other post) to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, or as it was in the Declaration of Independance, Life, liberty and property. The founding fathers set the country up, so that even if the majority wins, in this case the Christians, the minority still has it's rights. Which is why the USA was NOT set up as a Christian nation. Other wise we'd have a national church, and what not.

We were founded as, and should still be, a secular nation. We were meant to give the world an idea of what freedom was supposed to be. Leave it to religion to ruin that.

[bipper]

Because of foreing policy, we definatley needed a secular state. IE look at the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli or ("Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary") for a good look at the beginings of our foriegn policy. This will also concour with the reasons for needing a secular government.


For Adams:

Adams also demonstrated his personal views on the subject in two passages in his "Defense of the Constitution":

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

To those historians with a strange bias against Christianity, or admitting the forefathers were christain, this Is the type of context we can expect to see brought up. In reality, this is simply saying that this nation was founded by men, and will be ruled by men. (Under God or not). Also, these writtings are simply saying that our government does not appoint positions to people based on what GOD, a god, or any diety says

Thomas Jefferson :
Even here, Jefferson was a huge devoted christain. The thought of him being a diest is an age old myth. Jefferson was a member of an Angelic Church. He was Married in a chruch, attended regularly, donated gernerously, and even attended scripture studies.

Jefferson also never cut the word miracles out of his bible, as touted by these same historians. That is a blantant lie that I would not belive so easily. Jeferson did write an interesting adoption of the bible for the natives, if that might be what they were thinking of. This was a medium for him to convert the natives with. Miracles were never cut from these parchments either. There are scraps of this around yet. I belive it was an index, or a table of contents of sort, that pointed to several miracles.

Jefferson even wrote "Notes on Religion" which were nine (?) notes which were about the inspiration of the scriptures. He also proclaims Jesus as the Christ, and writes a very good peice of religous work.

He was not even against the seperation of religion and state. He may have been on some levels, but President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office.

The bold text that says the government should <b> have religous freedom, not be free of religon</b> is a core belief of Jefferson as pointed out in several of his letters.

Madison: The Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Anglican Communion which Thomas Jefferson belonged to. This also happens to be the sect that Madison officially belonged to on records. Deism was a popular subject back then, thus the ammount of context discussed be people whom belonged to the christain church was not uncommon. The thing that urks me is that Deists constantly spam the internet with theses small snippets of information and letters which claim desim in all the founding fathers.


I beleive that this debate is relavant to the formation of the pledge of alligence. America, as stated earlier, is found with freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Bipper

[Jebus]

I know how to admit when I was wrong. But Deist or no, the first amendment disallows the government from putting down religions (unless the practices break laws, as in human sacrifice and whatever) AND it makes it so that government may not SUPPORT religion. Usually written as "the government may not support any one religion." That does not mean that the government may support all religions, as that disenfranchises atheists.

Majority rules, but the minority has rights. The government, foriegn AND domestic, must remain purely secular.

[escobert]

And the first settelment was in Vermont on lake champlain William De Champlain came from france in 1609. He then proceded to build a church and colony but, it was soon detroyed by indians/sickness.

[Channing]

I believe people shouldn't have to say the pledge if they don't want too. I find it sort of silly just to exchange "under God." Doesn't really suit anyone either way. It just sounds like an attempt to get people to say the pledge reguardless by exchanging their own belief into the phrase.

I believe people shouldn't have to say the pledge if they don't want too. But since they are a resident of the United States I don't think it'd kill anyone to atleast stand for it. Even if you don't speak the words or place your hand over your heart.

[Jebus]

And the first settelment was in Vermont on lake champlain William De Champlain came from france in 1609. He then proceded to build a church and colony but, it was soon detroyed by indians/sickness.

First settlement was St. Augustine, Florida, settled by the Spanish in the 1400's.

[Endless]

First settlement was St. Augustine, Florida, settled by the Spanish in the 1400's.

Close, but not quite. That was in 1565. Also, technically, it wasn't the first <i>American</i> settlement, since it only became part of the "USA" in 1821 (when Spain left for good), and part of the Union in 1845 (when Florida was accepted as the 27th state).

[Jebus]

Yeah, I'm always off with years.

And it was teh first NORTH American settlement if you don't count the Carribean. ?

In any case it was the first settlement in the continental US.