You don't need to steal or find either of them. Just go to the dungeon... more specifically to the HORROR stage and on occassion a battle with high level ninjas comes up... they will throw all sorts of stuff... masamunes, chirijiradens, zorlin shapes, Iga/Koga knifes, and even......................BUM bum bum: CHAOS BLADES!!!! excaliburs too.... anything your lil heart desires!