Eyes on Feminine Features

[Depression Moon]

This thread has been splitted from another thread because of off-topic-ness and such. The topic here is, in short, whether the Final Fantasy males look feminine or not. -Rantzien

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

[Freya]

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

[Depression Moon]

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

That's a modded pic though. So that doesn't count you can put a womanly wig on any guy and put him in a dress and not realize it's a woman until you get close enough, unless they're bulging with muscles.

[Freya]

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same. It's still very feminine. As do most the FF guys. It's a japanese thing. Look at any of their popular music artists.

Here I made you a picture to show you that the facial structure for lady cloud and normal cloud are the same and he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

[RedPouch]

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

^ This.

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same.

I can tell you lack any knowledge of anatomical/artistic study of males and females, especially when it comes to facial structure, but I'll just give a quick rhetorical as an example. You do realize how easily most women can actually look male by just wearing some different clothes and getting a masculine haircut, right? You're pretty deluded if you think any of the guys Wolf Kanno mentioned look "feminine". Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black just to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

...he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

No. Just no. Cloud looks cute as a guy, however he looks ugly as a female in this picture you showed. His cheeks are way too thick for the female hair that was put on him, and whoever designed the body made it too bulky [or "fat" for lack of a better word]. His cheekbone placement also make it a dead-giveaway that he's actually male, so it sorta kills the image of this possibly being a female.

I personally adored XII and was happy to see SE try to break away from the stifling forumlatic approach that most JRPGs were doing at the time. It was more of an FF to me than X was as I felt XII really tried to redefine the genre and created new expectations that I have for the series.

I really hated the character designs for FF XII [and I'll have to say that Vaan is one of the few that actually does look feminine], but it was a great installment in the FF series. I would much rather have played as Reks though, but I guess I should have expected SE to stick me with someone second-rate [at least it wasn't Tidus though]. This game really restored a lot of my faith though. I was so happy with FF IX, then FF X was such a disappointment and FF X-2 was even worse, I was starting to lose my faith again. I'm having some doubts about FF XIII but I'll give it a fair chance like the others.

[Roogle]

Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

I agree. Sometimes, I think that games like that create an unfair expectation of hypermasculinity.

I like the artwork in Street Fighter IV, but the actual graphics in gameplay look a lot more exaggerated than the artwork in some instances. I like the world design and scenic artwork of the World of Warcraft series, but I think that its character design for the human races tends to be a bit too gruff.

[Jessweeee♪]

The only thing that connects the games is a couple names and maybe a few monsters. Oh and that all males look feminine.

Not true. There are story elements, themes, and crystals that also give attachment. I want to know how you think that Auron, any of the Cids, Cloud, Squall, Zell, Kain, Shadow, Tellah, Barret, Wakka, Basch, Balthier, Snow, Amarant, Vivi, Kimahri, Locke, Umaro, Sabin, Edgar, Golbez and Steiner look feminine.

REALLY? xD Are you serious?! Most those guys you listed look like chicks.

Hell here I found a lovely example for you.

Cloud's the only character she listed that's even remotely feminine-looking, and even then I have to agree with Khalin and say he has a masculine build to him.

I think it's the flawless skin on the face and lack of facial hair that gets people. I suppose in the case of Vaan and Tidus there's also the hair, but everything else is clearly masculine.

[Fynn]

I disagree with Khalin. Before I really concentrated on the picture, I thought that was Stella from vXIII.

[scrumpleberry]

All they did was give him long hair and a dress. The facial structure is still the same.

I can tell you lack any knowledge of anatomical/artistic study of males and females, especially when it comes to facial structure, but I'll just give a quick rhetorical as an example. You do realize how easily most women can actually look male by just wearing some different clothes and getting a masculine haircut, right? You're pretty deluded if you think any of the guys Wolf Kanno mentioned look "feminine". Just because the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures in no way depicts femininity [they don't have to look like Jack Black just to be considered looking "male"]. If anything, it sounds like you have a 70's-American-media-influenced opinion on what males "should" look like. Either go watch some cowboy movies or go play Street Fighter IV/WoW.

Lmao what.

Firstly, you're being quite rude. Secondly, Freya's not saying there's anything wrong with guys having a feminine face, so there's no need to throw a hissy fit. She's just pointing out the trend for ff guys to have girly faces - which is undoubtedly present.

It's no easier for women to crossdress as men than for men to crossdress as women - in fact, I think skinny guys probably have it the easiest, because of the androgynous beauty stereotype for models. All you've proven is that men and women have similar facial structures that can be worked to make them look male or female.

I have no idea where you're geting this word chiseled from. Cloud is the opposite of chiseled. He has a soft face with a demure narrow jaw and petite features.

Cloud is girlier in the face than the average man on the street, in the US or Japan or anywhere else. In exactly the same way that Tifa has a more ridiculously proportionaed body than most women on the street. They're not meant to be a copy of reality. Girly faces in FF is not a bad trend, but it is a trend. If you can't see that, then you're in the nile, my dear.

...he looks like a very cute girl if I may add.

No. Just no. Cloud looks cute as a guy, however he looks ugly as a female in this picture you showed. His cheeks are way too thick for the female hair that was put on him, and whoever designed the body made it too bulky [or "fat" for lack of a better word]. His cheekbone placement also make it a dead-giveaway that he's actually male, so it sorta kills the image of this possibly being a female.

Firstly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about with that hair. I don't think you do either. Anyway, the picture isn't about him looking cute or not, it's a homage to the humourous crossdressing scene in wall market, where you know he's looking ridiculously buff in the dress. The only thing wrong with the photoshopped shot is that his neck looks too thick, because the shopper didn't change the position to allow for the different pose.

I'd say you're the one LACKING KNOWLEDGE OF BASIC ANATOMICAL FACIAL STRUCTURE FNARF - I don't know what magic world you live in where women all have magic high supermodel cheekbones, but it ain't earth. There are as many guys with high cheekbones as girls. Likewise, there are as many girls with normal, unFIERCE cheekbones as guys. Girls just choose to enhance theirs with makeup and lighting in photos and stuff. So you're just talking out of your bum with rage

[RedPouch]

Firstly, you're being quite rude. Secondly, Freya's not saying there's anything wrong with guys having a feminine face, so there's no need to throw a hissy fit.

I'm not throwing a hissy fit, I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous, and most people I'm talking to on #eoff IRC seem to agree - I just went out and said it first.

She's just pointing out the trend for ff guys to have girly faces - which is undoubtedly present.

Unless you're talking about Vaan or Kuja, then no.

It's no easier for women to crossdress as men than for men to crossdress as women

I never claimed otherwise? I don't get the point of this part.

All you've proven is that men and women have similar facial structures that can be worked to make them look male or female.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say in the first place... thanks for confirming I guess.

I have no idea where you're geting this word chiseled from. Cloud is the opposite of chiseled. He has a soft face with a demure narrow jaw and petite features.

Wasn't really referring to Cloud. Check the part where you quoted me talking about Cloud's facial features for further info.

Cloud is girlier in the face than the average man on the street, in the US or Japan or anywhere else. In exactly the same way that Tifa has a more ridiculously proportionaed body than most women on the street. They're not meant to be a copy of reality. Girly faces in FF is not a bad trend, but it is a trend. If you can't see that, then you're in the nile, my dear.

Not really. It's more of a bishounen-type trend than anything, but despite the softness of their faces they're still too male-looking to be confused with women. Aside from White Wizard lady up here, I've yet to talk to someone that's read this topic who thinks that Cloud's face could actually pass off as female in that picture. He just looks plain gross. Don Corneo needs a pair of glasses.

Firstly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about with that hair. I don't think you do either.

Sure I do. His hair in this photoshopped picture is making his cheeks look a bit fatter than they are and what little we can see of his upper-body looks a little too beefy to pass off as female. The neck is making it worse yes, but that's part of Cloud's build as a male. Humourous? yes.

Anyway, the picture isn't about him looking cute or not

No, but Lekana said he looked cute as a female, so I had to get that one in there.

I'd say you're the one LACKING KNOWLEDGE OF BASIC ANATOMICAL FACIAL STRUCTURE FNARF - I don't know what magic world you live in where women all have magic high supermodel cheekbones, but it ain't earth.

I didn't say anything about women having high supermodel cheekbones though... this is something you just randomly brought up. However I will say that the first thing we learned in my facial-analysis art class is that males and females have very distinctive yet strikingly-similar facial structures. As for the rage part, I'm not mad, just pretty expressive. But yeah I'm told I can come across as rude, so it's not just you!

I just want to chime in real fast and ask everyone to stay cool concerning the topic. Please try to keep things civil and that goes for everyone... especially me.

I'll try! You know me!

[scrumpleberry]

"the Japanese typically do cleaner cut faces with chiseled facial-bone structures"

w/e I'm too lazy to argue with you again. These guys really do look effeminate! I don't understand why you don't understand that. The bishounen-type trend is all about prettyboys. Prettyboys are effeminate *shrug*

[Bolivar]

In all fairness I do have to say that when my Uncle saw me playing FFVII he said "damn, look at that chick go!" and he was unfortunately referring to Cloud performing Cross-Slash or something.

I don't know man, it's just the art, which has to do with the culture, which has to do with humanity as both Freya and Khalin both (ironically) pointed out. I remember being pissed when concept art for FFIII was being released I was like "Damn! I don't wanna play as four ***(chicks)***ches!!!

You just gotta roll with it

[RedPouch]

So feminine. Clearly. You don't even have to alter the pictures to make him look female or anything. It's so obvious the way they are.

I don't know man, it's just the art, which has to do with the culture, which has to do with humanity as both Freya and Khalin both (ironically) pointed out. I remember being pissed when concept art for FFIII was being released I was like "Damn! I don't wanna play as four ***(chicks)***ches!!!

It has to do with the race most of all, since each race has its own prominent facial features that generally come along with it. But what's a greater influence than that is culture itself. In all honesty, I think older-generation Americans are too used to hyper-masculine images of what a "man" should look like.

[Mirage]

Yeah he looks quite feminine at the last CG picture there. Like an angry girl, sort of.

Last time I had a girl fix my hair and put make-up on me, I definitely did not look as feminine as Cloud does, and I consider my face to be averagely masculine.

[Fynn]

Aside from White Wizard lady up here,[...]

It's ironic that you say you think I'm a girl in a topic about effeminite men...